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However based on Chinese training, and the new ball potentially adding injuries at a increase rate than before, Ma Long's speed and body could really be of a concern in 3 years time

ZJK's speed and body was a concern. We all know that turned out. I agree with you, just small differences doesn't mean we have real disagreement.
 
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Qualification rules for Olympic Games change from time to time and CNT does not count sorely on World Rankings. For Rio 2016, Liu Shiwen (#WR1) and Fan Zhendong (#WR2) were not selected to play singles in Rio. And there are Qualification tournaments in Asia whose rules change from time to time as well. For Rio 2016, Ma Long and Liu Xiaoxia got qualified first.
In the previous two Olympic cycles, world champions played singles in OG:
London: Wang Hao (WTTC 2009), Zhang Jike (WTTC 2011)
Rio: Zhang Jike (WTTC 2013), Ma Long (WTTC 2015)
In women's team, Zhang Yining was world champion in 2009 but retired.
London: Ding Ning (WTTC 2011), Li Xiaoxia (WTTC 2011 runner-up)
Rio: Li Xiaoxia (WTTC 2013), Ding Ning (WTTC 2015)

Winning WTTC 2017, Ma Long and Ding Ning are halfway to Tokyo while Fan Zhendong, Zhu Yuling and etc. will start from scratch in WTTC 2019. The fitness of the senior players is a big concern. Not only Ma Long has injuries, Ding Ning has injuries as well, which seems more severe than Ma Long. She withdrew Grand Final last year and did not attend Qatar Open this year due to the injuries and sickness. She had a fever during the whole Asian Champs. I am not saying she lost to Miu Hirano only because of the sickness but I think the sickness affected her performance. If she had won, the injuries and illness will turn to a good story. But there is no "if" and she lost.
 
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We had this argument on mytt when ZJK was picked for Roo. A forummer produced stats showing that since 1988, no reigning or playing WTTC singles champ had been left off the squad, especially if they won in the cycle before the Olympics. He did this in part to prove to me that the only way Ma Long would have played singles in 2012 was by winning the WTTC on 2011 and that Wang Hao was on the team. He also pointed out that Guo Yan wad the original qualifier by rating and was replaced with Ding Ning and believed that even if Fan had won the 2016 trials for Olympics, ZJK and ML would still have gone.

Of course, I argued with him but after I thought about it, I concluded there was more to it than I thought and that he was likely right as there was no other way I could explain selecting ZJK.
 
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guys you forget the constant rule changes from ITTF. CNT and every other team was forced to adapt, ML was no5 in world rankings may 2011 (back then the rules stated that top 20 or 22 world ranked player automatically qualify and the team has to select 2 of them for singles, i dont remember if no1 and no2 were qualified automatically or the CNT had the right to choose) after the world champ has ended so LGL had to deny wang hao singles who was at that time the most consistent player against foreigners and better than ML in overall world competitions. besides ML lost his 1st chance to get a ticket against koki niwa in 2012, only to earn it later
 
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I did not mean it for a single game, friends. We are talking about being GOAT! GOAT means ML better than other guys with good margin. This final, ML was just nanometer ahead of FZD. Only guy, I can think of, closing-in on ML, is FZD. So, in coming years, if ML ends up surpassing FZD in terms of overall speed-power-control, then there is no other guy, near ML quality - then ML will be 'undisputed' GOAT.

As a matter of opinion, I do not think we need GOAT at all for the good of game, we need different guys from different countries to win ;-)
 
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ML and FZD played 12 times internationally and FZD only won once. There has never been such a one-sided H2H record between WR#1 and WR#2.


I did not mean it for a single game, friends. We are talking about being GOAT! GOAT means ML better than other guys with good margin. This final, ML was just nanometer ahead of FZD. Only guy, I can think of, closing-in on ML, is FZD. So, in coming years, if ML ends up surpassing FZD in terms of overall speed-power-control, then there is no other guy, near ML quality - then ML will be 'undisputed' GOAT.

As a matter of opinion, I do not think we need GOAT at all for the good of game, we need different guys from different countries to win ;-)
 
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ML and FZD played 12 times internationally and FZD only won once. There has never been such a one-sided H2H record between WR#1 and WR#2.

FZD has some wins against ML in CNT internal competitions but ML is in a different level when stakes are high. FZD missed some sitters in game 7 but ML got in some difficult shots in difficult times. IMO, FZD has not improved great deal in last few years. At the same time, I can see ML still evolving/improving his tactical play. He does not rely only on brute force any more. With this his longevity and effectiveness is bound to increase. If there are no injury issues, he can still win one more WTTC and Olympics gold.

I am not sure it is appropriate to compare players from celluloid ball or 21-point era as tactics and playing style were completely different,but, in plastic ball age, there is no doubt ML is the GOAT.
 
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guys you forget the constant rule changes from ITTF. CNT and every other team was forced to adapt, ML was no5 in world rankings may 2011 (back then the rules stated that top 20 or 22 world ranked player automatically qualify and the team has to select 2 of them for singles, i dont remember if no1 and no2 were qualified automatically or the CNT had the right to choose) after the world champ has ended so LGL had to deny wang hao singles who was at that time the most consistent player against foreigners and better than ML in overall world competitions. besides ML lost his 1st chance to get a ticket against koki niwa in 2012, only to earn it later

#1 and #2 automatically qualified, but the point was that ML was not even being seriously considered for singles because he was not a world champion. That he showed the resilience to play well enough to play the teams is to his credit, but forget the ITTF rules, if he had won the world championship in 2009, for example, they would have subbed out Wang Hao. The evidence that was posted on how every Olympics featured the WTTC winner from the past cycles was convincing enough for me. I mean, they subbed out Guo Yan for Ding Ning so what was the big deal?
 
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I have no doubt that ML is amazing and almost GOAT! I just stated my criteria for ML to be GOAT in my view, and nobody has to agree ;-). I did not see much difference between skills of ML and FZD in final in comparisons to matches between XX-Harimoto, Timo-ML, XX-ML, Lee-FZD. With these other matches, winner was "clearly" a winner. If you watched final, you must have, FZD did not seem a "loser" at all, rather he seemed almost a winner and instead of thinking "he deserved to lose", I thought - "Shit, he should have won". I am bigger fan of ML and want him to go further in next two-three years. This is not best ML can do, he will do better and be GOAT with level that another player will not be able to reach!

ML and FZD played 12 times internationally and FZD only won once. There has never been such a one-sided H2H record between WR#1 and WR#2.
 
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#1 and #2 automatically qualified, but the point was that ML was not even being seriously considered for singles because he was not a world champion. That he showed the resilience to play well enough to play the teams is to his credit, but forget the ITTF rules, if he had won the world championship in 2009, for example, they would have subbed out Wang Hao. The evidence that was posted on how every Olympics featured the WTTC winner from the past cycles was convincing enough for me. I mean, they subbed out Guo Yan for Ding Ning so what was the big deal?

I see , so we conclude to what you said earler about world champs in the olympic cycle (CNT favoring world champ winners), even if u had won the 1st world champ which is near the previous olympics and not the 2nd one, you are in advantageous position to your other team mates, wang hao and zhang jike being a case for 2009 and 2013.

So since ML has won the 2017 his position at least in the team event is guaranteed, ZJK would probably retire till tokyo even if he doesnt I dont see any big comeback . I dont see any futyre for XX so the only player with titles and a veteran to make the transition old team to new is ma long and my guess is if he wins 2019 his singles participation is a must since he will be the only player in the world to have won 3 consecutive golds in world champs in the modern era which is a unique accomplishment, zhuang zhedong excluded
 
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definitly the best of all times. A lot of old timers instantly think of JO waldner or wang liqin or whatever. The thing is table tennis has never been so competitive, with so MANY stars and top of the line players as the china team has atm.

i have seen most of the matches of JO waldner at his peak, and the diference to me is simply HUGE. Ma long is way better in every aspect of the game. Waldner was really good and in his particular moment in time, and people loves him because he was representing all that europe part of the sport that did not wanna fall under the chinese dominance.

There hasnt been a generation so strong and amazing as the one with xu xin, zhang jike, fanzhendong, and Ma long. No player at his peak had such a formidable amount of amazing skilled players to compete with. I mean guys if we look a few months back on the marvellous 12 tournament in china to decide wich chinese players were coming to WTTC 2017. That thing alone was even better than the wttc itself. Those matches are so freaking out of this world that you won't find any of the ones from the past being like that.

The sport has evolved, like in football it was all beautifull and nice 50 years ago, but the kind of physical strenght and training that exists and its demanded now in every sport has transformed all of them into something way better than ever before.
 
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The chinese nationals or asian championships are definitely not more difficult than the worlds! 5 chinese are attending, the ones below are definitely not better than Dima, Jun, Timo,... And the olympics is only once every four year, so veen if there are only attending two chinese, they have a considerable amount of stress extra, which they do not have at nationals and asian championships, so also more difficult to win.

That being said, Ma Long is for me the best of all time. No one ever was considered so unbeatable
 
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The chinese nationals or asian championships are definitely not more difficult than the worlds! 5 chinese are attending, the ones below are definitely not better than Dima, Jun, Timo,... And the olympics is only once every four year, so veen if there are only attending two chinese, they have a considerable amount of stress extra, which they do not have at nationals and asian championships, so also more difficult to win.

That being said, Ma Long is for me the best of all time. No one ever was considered so unbeatable

I dont agree that lower rung Chinese players below top 5 are definitely not better than Dima and other guys. I am not sure you follow the chinese super league but if these guys are let loose , will occupy most of the top 25 spots in world rankings. Irrespective of that ML remains one of the top dogs in it. ML 's loss ratio is higher in CSL but it is the same case for other CNT guys.
 
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definitly the best of all times. A lot of old timers instantly think of JO waldner or wang liqin or whatever. The thing is table tennis has never been so competitive, with so MANY stars and top of the line players as the china team has atm.

i have seen most of the matches of JO waldner at his peak, and the diference to me is simply HUGE. Ma long is way better in every aspect of the game. Waldner was really good and in his particular moment in time, and people loves him because he was representing all that europe part of the sport that did not wanna fall under the chinese dominance.

There hasnt been a generation so strong and amazing as the one with xu xin, zhang jike, fanzhendong, and Ma long. No player at his peak had such a formidable amount of amazing skilled players to compete with. I mean guys if we look a few months back on the marvellous 12 tournament in china to decide wich chinese players were coming to WTTC 2017. That thing alone was even better than the wttc itself. Those matches are so freaking out of this world that you won't find any of the ones from the past being like that.

The sport has evolved, like in football it was all beautifull and nice 50 years ago, but the kind of physical strenght and training that exists and its demanded now in every sport has transformed all of them into something way better than ever before.

In the end of the day you cant compare different eras, define what you mean about today's era being more "competitive" Its all about the chinese, koreans and japanese are catching up slowly but not enough cause the CNT will always adapt like they did with sweden and now hirano

In the 38mm hidden serve era, it wasnt only about the chinese. There were at least 5-6 players who could clinch the title,2-3chinese , waldner, persson, saive, gatien and later samsonov. And there were also numerous dangerous players who could defeat the chinese but werent consitent enough to clinch any big world title, kreanga, rosskopf, damien eloi,appelgren,kim taek soo,primorac, korbel, karakasevic


Nowadays the CNT only had to worry seriously about koki and boll as he was in great form, dima still needs more variation in his game to be an actual threat.

Yes the training and demands of TT are definitely way harder compared to 20 years ago, but its not "more competitive" when china wins gold in teams and singles for the past 15 years. Japan's biggest wins were against XX, lee sang su had to face a sloppy ZJK to clinch bronze, winning against the top 2 right now is out of the question but when it happes because it will happen, then maybe the rest of the world will start to believe in it more.
 
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I dont agree that lower rung Chinese players below top 5 are definitely not better than Dima and other guys. I am not sure you follow the chinese super league but if these guys are let loose , will occupy most of the top 25 spots in world rankings. Irrespective of that ML remains one of the top dogs in it. ML 's loss ratio is higher in CSL but it is the same case for other CNT guys.

Yes Dima has lost against many B CNT team players and his record is not good in the chinese super league, even when they draw him against a "same level" opponent, timo had very good results in the super league, which proves his versatility. Dima is an out of this world player when things go his way, but no one is gonna just sit there and let him play his game,and he always underperforms/hesitates when difficulties/distractions unpredictabilities appear.
 
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Just look at achievement in tournaments (small to big, local to international, trivial or non-trivial), ML is definitely better than anyone else (perhaps except one penholder Chinese that I don't recall.) These are facts to consider, not opinions because opinions are just opinions. He has achieved a lot more than Waldner who many non-Chinese consider the GOAT.
 
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