Count me out as a ZJK fan.

Great posts. Very nice discussions in an open and respectful environment, totally proving how great this forum is.

I'd read most of the comments in this post. I have to say, after reading the quotes here, Zhang Jike is cocky, no mistake about it. Note: I am not talking about sportsmanship.

Any gesture, celebration and non-verbal expression could be interpreted in so many different ways. Try to imagine Ma Lin did what ZJK did to celebrate, you will find it more acceptable because in general Ma Lin conduct himself very well in public and is always full of respect for his entire career. Not to say Zhang doesn't behave like a sportsman, but if he is a real cocky person, every neutral behavior, like a grin, will exude that cockiness in the air.

So, what's the most critical is the quotes which made me think this way, I was swaying back and forth, until this quote in the last line shows up. I will try to translate this line, and I hope the Chinese will show below:

"王皓？现在还不一定呢。不是我从内心瞧不起谁，我觉得我是下一个领军人物。"
"Wang Hao? Not sure yet. Not that I am looking down on anyone deep down, I think I am the next leader."


I am aware that the media could manipulate quotes to make things look differently. But regardless of all that, it shows everything we have to understand about him. No matter how politely he put this, it's the idea itself that makes him cocky. If he really think he will be the next leader, disregarding who the other teammates are and how they are doing, he is already looking down on them even though he said he is not. He just coated it well in front of TV which I am sure they know how.

Skill is one thing, leadership is another. Wang Hao obviously has more experience than him, won more competitions than him, and had been to tougher situations before, absorbed more pressure before, and more importantly, ZJK is 5 years old younger than Wang Hao. How should Wang Hao be led by a dude so much younger? But of course, I am not sure if there is a real position called The Leader on their team, but to me it's more of a gimmick thing that fans and media brand you or the coach would plan the team based on certain players... Either way, the way he openly claimed he think he will be the next leader is just too arrogant.

Overall, I think I am still observing. I can't say I am a fan of him or not, but the development of a player is a long process. Right now, I just see the seed of arrogance is planted in Zhang. Let's just keep observing for now.

Shoutout to scylla24 who is educating a lot of fans here with his comments, keep up the great work!

By the way, I am new. Nice to meet you all.

i dont even know ZJK but he sounds like a prick, I bet he uses LION CLAW long pimples, wasteman!

clalaloop said:

Great posts. Very nice discussions in an open and respectful environment, totally proving how great this forum is.

I'd read most of the comments in this post. I have to say, after reading the quotes here, Zhang Jike is cocky, no mistake about it. Note: I am not talking about sportsmanship.

Any gesture, celebration and non-verbal expression could be interpreted in so many different ways. Try to imagine Ma Lin did what ZJK did to celebrate, you will find it more acceptable because in general Ma Lin conduct himself very well in public and is always full of respect for his entire career. Not to say Zhang doesn't behave like a sportsman, but if he is a real cocky person, every neutral behavior, like a grin, will exude that cockiness in the air.

So, what's the most critical is the quotes which made me think this way, I was swaying back and forth, until this quote in the last line shows up. I will try to translate this line, and I hope the Chinese will show below:

"王皓？现在还不一定呢。不是我从内心瞧不起谁，我觉得我是下一个领军人物。"
"Wang Hao? Not sure yet. Not that I am looking down on anyone deep down, I think I am the next leader."


I am aware that the media could manipulate quotes to make things look differently. But regardless of all that, it shows everything we have to understand about him. No matter how politely he put this, it's the idea itself that makes him cocky. If he really think he will be the next leader, disregarding who the other teammates are and how they are doing, he is already looking down on them even though he said he is not. He just coated it well in front of TV which I am sure they know how.

Skill is one thing, leadership is another. Wang Hao obviously has more experience than him, won more competitions than him, and had been to tougher situations before, absorbed more pressure before, and more importantly, ZJK is 5 years old younger than Wang Hao. How should Wang Hao be led by a dude so much younger? But of course, I am not sure if there is a real position called The Leader on their team, but to me it's more of a gimmick thing that fans and media brand you or the coach would plan the team based on certain players... Either way, the way he openly claimed he think he will be the next leader is just too arrogant.

Overall, I think I am still observing. I can't say I am a fan of him or not, but the development of a player is a long process. Right now, I just see the seed of arrogance is planted in Zhang. Let's just keep observing for now.

Shoutout to scylla24 who is educating a lot of fans here with his comments, keep up the great work!

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Great post, and welcome to the forum

And as long as he says he thinks he is the next leader, I can live with that. That's a little over the edge of self-confidence and arrogance. If he couldn't back it with results it would be pure arrogance, but until now the results are pretty much with him. The problem for him is that every mistake he makes will be used to remind him of his arrogance, which puts him more under pressure to get results. But as I mentioned earlier, I think he purposely puts extra pressure on himself, because he plays his best game under the most pressure. That is a star quality after all

hm that could be true. xu xin is too young and ma long is to shy and introverted. he is no leader, i think. but zhang jike could be a good leader i think. and if he has to shoulder responsibility, he maybe will become i really nice sportsman. otherwise i noticed that he is the only one, who bring the ball back to the refery after a game or set. i've often seen that the ball role some milimeters to a players shoe but he didnt make any move. and the refery had to go through to hole box.

Guys, seems like we all watch all TT videos available around. This make us a good specialist on TT players behavior!! That's just the message they send to us, I don't care how friendly ZJK is with WH or Ma Lin is with Ma long, I care about how friendly he is to TT fans in general. As a public sportsmanship is important they show a good character and respectful behavior in public, that's a important part of being a champion.

Camarão® said:

Guys, seems like we all watch all TT videos available around. This make us a good specialist on TT players behavior!! That's just the message they send to us, I don't care how friendly ZJK is with WH or Ma Lin is with Ma long, I care about how friendly he is to TT fans in general. As a public sportsmanship is important they show a good character and respectful behavior in public, that's a important part of being a champion.

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i cant accept this. a true champion is friendly to the fans and to his openents. that makes him a true sportsman. what kind of sportsman is a guy, that take a mask in public and being a badass "behind the cameras". i dont think, that thats the way a champion should be. but in fact that i have to choose one thing, i think its more important to be respectful to your opponents than to the public.

CrackTechniques said:

i dont even know ZJK but he sounds like a prick, I bet he uses LION CLAW long pimples, wasteman!

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Zhang Jike is the current World Champion and the current World Cup winner. He is one of only two people who won the World Championship title the first time he went. The other was Kong Linghui. He does not use long pips. He uses Hurricane 3 NEO on his forehand and Tenergy 64 on his backhand. His blade is a Butterfly Viscaria and he is an offensive player through and through. He attacks his opponents serves and pushes more than any other player out there, which means he pushes less often than any other player out there. His over the table backhand loop against short serves and pushes is better than anyone else's in the game.

In his match against Joo Se Hyuk in the semi-finals of the World Cup, his loops had so much spin on them that it took Joo 2 games to be able to get them on the talbe. He was hitting the ball right at Joo (the best defender in the world) and Joo could not get them on the table. I have never seen that happen to Joo before and I have never seen a loop with so much topspin before.

In his match against Wang Hao in the finals, when he finally showed up and started playing, Wang Hao could not get his serves on the table because they had so much spin. I have never seen Wang Hao have so much trouble with anyone's serves before.

Regardless of what you think of him as a person he has more technical skill than anyone else, and the only player who matches up with him is Ma Long who has, without question, the best forehand in Table Tennis currently. Ma Long's forehand is so good it compensates for the technique that Zhang Jike has over him. But Ma Long's technique is pretty darn good too.

If one of those two (Zhang Jike and Ma Long) is playing in a match right now, the only player who can really give him a run for his money, is the other. And in head to head, Ma Long has a big advantage, but Zhang Jike, as of now, has the big titles.

Carl Horowitz said:

In his match against Wang Hao in the finals, when he finally showed up and started playing, Wang Hao could not get his serves on the table because they had so much spin. I have never seen Wang Hao have so much trouble with anyone's serves before.

Regardless of what you think of him as a person he has more technical skill than anyone else, and the only player who matches up with him is Ma Long who has, without question, the best forehand in Table Tennis currently. Ma Long's forehand is so good it compensates for the technique that Zhang Jike has over him. But Ma Long's technique is pretty darn good too.

If one of those two (Zhang Jike and Ma Long) is playing in a match right now, the only player who can really give him a run for his money, is the other. And in head to head, Ma Long has a big advantage, but Zhang Jike, as of now, has the big titles.

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I have a lot of reservation about this. Just because Zhang Jike won 2 important competitions does not automatically prove him top of the bunch already. Xu Xin used to beat Ma Long, does that make him the new world champ? The coolest thing about table tennis is that the margin of winning and losing is actually very narrow, especially at the highest level. If Wang Hao had no chance against Zhang Jike at all, why did he score 2 sets at the beginning? Zhang tried to speed up his game in the second set already, but Wang Hao was still able to grab that set with ease. Now we are all judging because we know the result, and it's easier this way. But what if Zhang accidentally lost the third set too? Will he be able to turn the tie? The fact is that their margins are very narrow. All the top players are in fact very close, especially among the Chinese players.

Another point showing how arrogant Zhang Jike actually is is that every player relies on good teammates to get better. He table-tennis daily (yes!)with his teammates and if his teammates suck, I don't know how good he could get. So, show some appreciation, be more humble and acknowledge that it's a collective effort. You don't automatically become this good. Coaches and trainers devote their time and money for you. If they don't like you or anything, they can train less of you and don't point out your problem then you cannot improve.

There are many other factors that make Zhang Jike the way he is now, and he is cocky enough to ignore all that and tell the world in front of TV that he thinks he will be the next leader, which, in fact, is a vague position. The fact that he voiced out, ignoring the team, focusing on himself, is a self glorification. That's more than enough to see him as one giant big cocky person who would behave in general, but would let his pride and arrogance explode whenever he wins anything against anyone. If you are consistently at the top on the team, things such as leading role will come naturally. Check Leo Messi's Argentina captaincy.

clalaloop said:

I have a lot of reservation about this. Just because Zhang Jike won 2 important competitions does not automatically prove him top of the bunch already. Xu Xin used to beat Ma Long, does that make him the new world champ? The coolest thing about table tennis is that the margin of winning and losing is actually very narrow, especially at the highest level. If Wang Hao had no chance against Zhang Jike at all, why did he score 2 sets at the beginning? Zhang tried to speed up his game in the second set already, but Wang Hao was still able to grab that set with ease. Now we are all judging because we know the result, and it's easier this way. But what if Zhang accidentally lost the third set too? Will he be able to turn the tie? The fact is that their margins are very narrow. All the top players are in fact very close, especially among the Chinese players.

Another point showing how arrogant Zhang Jike actually is is that every player relies on good teammates to get better. He table-tennis daily (yes!)with his teammates and if his teammates suck, I don't know how good he could get. So, show some appreciation, be more humble and acknowledge that it's a collective effort. You don't automatically become this good. Coaches and trainers devote their time and money for you. If they don't like you or anything, they can train less of you and don't point out your problem then you cannot improve.

There are many other factors that make Zhang Jike the way he is now, and he is cocky enough to ignore all that and tell the world in front of TV that he thinks he will be the next leader, which, in fact, is a vague position. The fact that he voiced out, ignoring the team, focusing on himself, is a self glorification. That's more than enough to see him as one giant big cocky person who would behave in general, but would let his pride and arrogance explode whenever he wins anything against anyone. If you are consistently at the top on the team, things such as leading role will come naturally. Check Leo Messi's Argentina captaincy.

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You need a bit of an attitude to be a good leader. Messi is probably the greatest player around, but you can easily tell he is not a natural leader. Him being captain doesn't help Argentina at all. A leader needs his own opinion and authority. You can always take someone's accomplishments down with 'if' but 'if' doesn't count. Fact is that ZJK did won two major events and hasn't really lost to anyone besides Ma Long for a long time. Now it is not easy to see that Ma Long is not a natural leader (which is not a negative point at all) so his conclusion wouldn't be that weird or arrogant. Anyone with those results would think the same, many would not say it.
Besides all this, I'm not sure if being 'team leader' actually means something at all. They might as well be joking about it. As said earlier WH and ZJK are good friends.

WiWa said:

You need a bit of an attitude to be a good leader. Messi is probably the greatest player around, but you can easily tell he is not a natural leader. Him being captain doesn't help Argentina at all. A leader needs his own opinion and authority. You can always take someone's accomplishments down with 'if' but 'if' doesn't count. Fact is that ZJK did won two major events and hasn't really lost to anyone besides Ma Long for a long time. Now it is not easy to see that Ma Long is not a natural leader (which is not a negative point at all) so his conclusion wouldn't be that weird or arrogant. Anyone with those results would think the same, many would not say it.
Besides all this, I'm not sure if being 'team leader' actually means something at all. They might as well be joking about it. As said earlier WH and ZJK are good friends.

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Your point built up perfectly until you destroyed it all at the end. If team leader doesn't mean a thing, and he chose to say he will be it, it makes him childish. Whether it's joking or not we don't know, but base on his recent success and the fact that he is so freaking amazingly good, I doubt he would joke about it. Still, we don't know.

What's interesting about your point is that it leads to a question: Do good players automatically lead?

You said Messi being captain didn't help Argentina at all. Really? Are those things visible at all? Or are you only judging by the results? If you judge by results, China do not need a leader at all. They run the sport on their own and clean swapped every title out there. Back to the Messi comparison, if ZJK is so good and is being 'appointed as a leader' (if it ever existed), then will he delivery what we all think he will?

I am guessing being cocky is silly. Just as you'd mentioned how it's piling pressure on yourself and make yourself obligated to win to justify your cockiness. "See I am bragging and I have the rights to!" And leaders cannot be cocky at all. A leader serves the team, not himself. To me, Ma Long's potential is much bigger, that has to do with my own expectations of what a leader should deliver. Most important part is to be able to boost the spirit of the entire team. Ma Long exudes that aura to me. But this is another topic.

I think everybody has a right to their own opinions. I am not bothering to get involved in the discussion about Zhang Jike's attitude. Some people will like it and some people will not. Muhammad Ali was a cocky big mouth. Some loved him and some hated him. But, in the ring, he was great whether he won or lost, at least until he got old. I could think of many other sports analogies of players who were great and humble and players who were great and acted cocky about their talents. But Zhang Jike's technique is very impressive. His forehand is the weakest part of his game and it is better than most. Everybody has good days and bad days. That does not change when a player is better than you. I have played people I am better than, had a bad day or match and lost to that player and then gone right back to winning against them. I have had the same thing happen the other way where I beat someone who I know is better than me but things worked out. But over the long run, Zhang Jike's technique is top notch. His biggest problem in terms of playing is actually his psychological issues and I am confident that he has them. But not his technique.

I am not going to tell anyone how they should feel about Zhang Jike's off the court persona or his on court persona. Each person will feel differently about that, just how some hated Muhammad Ali and some loved him. But I will say, he gets more spin than anyone else and there are some things that he can do, like the backhand banana, over the table loop, from the forehand side (how fast he moves into position for it and how fast he is back in position for the next shot) that are simply amazing.

By the way, against Wang Hao in the finals, after the first three games, it was a different match:

In the 4th game Zhang Jike was up 9-2 and 10-4 before he eased up. In the fifth game he was up 9-3 and 10-4 before he eased up. In the 6th and final game Wang Hao lost 11-3. Those are not competitive games.

Again, each person will respond to his attitude differently, but his technique is impressive regardless of how you feel about him as a person.

But I would say, it is worth having some compassion, I feel he is a bit crazy, and I cannot imagine how it felt to be one of the best players on the team and kicked off in spite of the fact that they knew that he was so good. Think about it. In that environment, a person might feel they needed to prop themselves up. I am not saying it is what should happen, but understanding things from his perspective might help you guys who are incensed by his attitude to realize that this is a sport, this is a game and he is a human who has had some ups and downs too, just like all of us. And in a place as competitive as China is about Table Tennis, getting onto the team, getting kicked off and getting back on must have been a real roller-coaster ride. I read an interview where he said that, after the win at the World Championships, he took a scissor and poked himself in the neck to see if he was dreaming. Yikes. I also read an interview where he said, when he was kicked off the team, that he shaved his head and went into a deep depression. Yikes again.

clalaloop said:

Your point built up perfectly until you destroyed it all at the end. If team leader doesn't mean a thing, and he chose to say he will be it, it makes him childish. Whether it's joking or not we don't know, but base on his recent success and the fact that he is so freaking amazingly good, I doubt he would joke about it. Still, we don't know.

What's interesting about your point is that it leads to a question: Do good players automatically lead?

You said Messi being captain didn't help Argentina at all. Really? Are those things visible at all? Or are you only judging by the results? If you judge by results, China do not need a leader at all. They run the sport on their own and clean swapped every title out there. Back to the Messi comparison, if ZJK is so good and is being 'appointed as a leader' (if it ever existed), then will he delivery what we all think he will?

I am guessing being cocky is silly. Just as you'd mentioned how it's piling pressure on yourself and make yourself obligated to win to justify your cockiness. "See I am bragging and I have the rights to!" And leaders cannot be cocky at all. A leader serves the team, not himself. To me, Ma Long's potential is much bigger, that has to do with my own expectations of what a leader should deliver. Most important part is to be able to boost the spirit of the entire team. Ma Long exudes that aura to me. But this is another topic.

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That it is childish is entirely your opinion. I don't think so. Since we don't exactly know his motivation, we can only guess.
Maybe he was sick of questions that only have one right answer and chose to say something different.
Maybe everyone let him down when he got kicked off the team and he dislikes his teammates for that. (Though highly unlikely).
Maybe...

Like I said before, it is all based on perception. If you want to view his celebrations, his quotes and his behaviour in a negative way, you will always find something to support that statement. If you don't, you can find whatever you want to support that too. For example: If Zhang Jike pretends to do it all on his own, why would he mention the fact that he asked Ding Ning for help about how to approach a final before the World Cup Final last week.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I just want to warn you that you should search to much for confirmation of your point of view all the time. That way you create a negative image about someone while that person is maybe a very nice guy. We only get to see a few hours of his life, most of which are when he is playing. You can't draw your conclusions from that so strictly.

Carl Horowitz said:

But Zhang Jike's technique is very impressive. His forehand is the weakest part of his game and it is better than most. Everybody has good days and bad days. That does not change when a player is better than you. I have played people I am better than, had a bad day or match and lost to that player and then gone right back to winning against them. I have had the same thing happen the other way where I beat someone who I know is better than me but things worked out. But over the long run, Zhang Jike's technique is top notch. His biggest problem in terms of playing is actually his psychological issues and I am confident that he has them. But not his technique.

I am not going to tell anyone how they should feel about Zhang Jike's off the court persona or his on court persona. Each person will feel differently about that, just how some hated Muhammad Ali and some loved him. But I will say, he gets more spin than anyone else and there are some things that he can do, like the backhand banana, over the table loop, from the forehand side (how fast he moves into position for it and how fast he is back in position for the next shot) that are simply amazing.

By the way, against Wang Hao in the finals, after the first three games, it was a different match:

In the 4th game Zhang Jike was up 9-2 and 10-4 before he eased up. In the fifth game he was up 9-3 and 10-4 before he eased up. In the 6th and final game Wang Hao lost 11-3. Those are not competitive games.

Again, each person will respond to his attitude differently, but his technique is impressive regardless of how you feel about him as a person.

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Great comment. I am in general in the same position as you in terms of his attitude and passion. I can in fact care less of what he say as long as good table tennis is still on display. But there are things that has to be pointed out. i.e. His comments and claims shows his cockiness.

Zhang Jike is a monster in this game, no doubt about it. But I believe skills are not what separate the Chinese players. They all train under the same system, similar amount of time, with the same teammates, they see similar things in the same environment, they play each other all the time as well, so technically, I'd say they are very close. But sometimes physical advantages can see certain players play better in certain aspects, like Ma Long being strong all round, but their techniques are similar. I am sure Wang Hao could spin the ball as much as Zhang Jike even he lost the final. But what separates them is the details. Such as, when to spin the ball so much in some situations and where should I place the ball to certain areas.

Zhang's biggest weapon to me is his mental strength and adaptability. That's the "detail" that separates him from the rest. But I still don't think anyone will be eternally better than another. One year is too short to prove that. So, we will have to see if this monster will continue to dominate despite the others are chasing from behind.

since when was sport nice,,,its about winning,,,,some do it in a nice way and im sure we have all played tt players at every level who do not,,,
just because people are pro they still have personalities,some good some bad,some bland,some mad,,,,this thread proves we need players like zhang, more talk about this than anyhting else....
power to the ping.

Agree with you Harry!

Great discussion!

I personally have 3 remarks: 1) Zhang Jike has very good technics, especially in the backhand, but not 'the best' technique in the forehand, not enough foreward, in my opinion. You must see the first 2 games against Wang Hao where in topspin to topspin duels, the ball flew over the table quite frequently... But ofcourse, it's still a very good forehand.
2) there is very much spin on his topspins, but Timo Boll has the best topspin if whe only look to rotation of the ball. But Joo could not get them on the table, because it's a very good combination of effect and quickness.
3) I don't think he is not a good sportsman... okay, if he said those things about Wang Hao and Ma Long, that shouldn't be, but he just didn't think about it much...Compare him to Xu Xin and he is a wonderfull sportsman, examples:
1) 4:09, he tried to steal a point
2) 5:03, he succeeds in stealing a point(against Timo, best sportsman, he wouldn't lie...)
3) 9:30, he tries to steal a point, that was clearly not touch, against a teammate
4) Same match as above, 10:20, and again he tries to steal a point against a teammate, again a clear misser
5) In a match against apolonia, that also was on youtube (I think it was the english open) he also tries to steal a point... can't find the video though.

5 examples... that's just sad, not coincidence

Filip, that's cultural not character....

Camarão® said:

Filip, that's cultural not character....

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I don't know about that. If it was cultural why is Xu the only Chinese player I have seen do that, where I have seen several players on the Chinese team correct an umpire in favor of the opponent, even when it meant losing the set. Having a tendency to call the results for the ump and to try and call edges on balls that hit the side, or to say that an opponent's ball, which hit an edge, did not is not such great character.

Okay, I have a story that I think is funny. When I was growing up, my father always disliked any sports figure that showed off, or acted out, or had any type of personality other than just being a quite gentleman and only taking a bow when it was appropriate but never anything else. In tennis he used to root for Bjorn Borg and he hated Jimmy Connors and John McEnroe. He hated Ilie Nastase more than anyone else. He hated how these guys would throw temper tantrums, point at spots on the court when they though their ball was in or the other players ball was out, throw their rackets and a whole host of other things. He also hated Muhammad Ali for all his talk and in baseball a player he did not like was Ricky Henderson. He hated that Henderson would lead off, walk (not even get a hit but walk), get to first, take a huge lead while sticking his tongue out at the pitcher, and steal second on the first throw, even if it was a pickoff move. Then he would steal third on the next throw. His model for what a baseball player should be like was Ted Williams who always, only said the right things and said as little as possible, would not take a bow for a homerun, always was quite and modest. In American Football he hated Mark Gastineau for his sack dance and of course others like him as well.

Now, I was always entertained by all these things because they seem so ridiculous. They really are silly. And especially the tennis stuff, it seemed to me like when one of those guys got worked up about trying to get their way with the umpire, it always worked to the other player's advantage. First, the other player got a rest and some extra time to get their mind focused on what they needed to do against their opponent, second, rage and that kind of getting worked up does not really help your control. So, it just seemed to me like a sideshow in a sense.

With all this, my father was obviously implying what a good sport he was. So, one day when I was in college, I went to meet my father at a local tennis court (he has been playing tennis now for over 60 years). When I got there, he was playing doubles with some friends. I sat in the stands next to the court and watched. He was yelling, he was jumping up and down, he was calling balls that his opponents hit, that were clearly in, from where I was sitting, out, he argued that shots he hit that were out, were in. He threw his racket at the fence and at the net. He slammed the side of his racket into the ground (the surface was clay). I was amazed. And none of his friends were doing things like that. And it seemed like they put up with him as though it was no big deal. I had such a good laugh about how he was doing exactly what he complained about when watching professional athletes. And he was not even really aware of himself in the situation. I tell the story to his friends and they all laugh but he will tell them it is not true, that he is not like that.

I really got such a kick out of seeing what a bad sport he was and I will always be entertained by that aspect of things but I will not care about it. It does not really make him any worse of a person. Off the court he is a great guy, truly. He just got so involved that he was not seeing how he was acting and he was acting out. I could psychoanalyze and say he grew up in the depression and had 5 brothers and was really poor and starved for attention. But, I don't think it matters and none of his friends seemed to care. They were all having fun in their own way while playing a sport they loved.