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The Board of Directors or CEO doesn't have special veto rights for a change like this ?
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USA Olympic selection process change
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The Board of Directors or CEO doesn't have special veto rights for a change like this ?
....
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Is there a source for this number, i.e. do we know where it actually came from and whether we can trust it?
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Unsure if it's common practice but there was a qualification in Sweden for the last spot of the WTTC squad last year. Jon Persson beat Pär Gerell to take a spot.
In Swedish: https://www.folkbladet.se/sport/persson-vann-svenskt-vm-kval-i-pingis-om4988546.aspx
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Regarding the roughly 250,000 tables sold each year in the U.S., that is accurate. The problem is that the vast majority of them go to "basement players" who stay basement players. USATT has done deals with the table sellers at least 2-3 times. I negotiated one of them, in the 1990s with Stiga/Sears, where we were able to include a USATT brochure with something like 100,000 tables sold. Alas, the response wasn't that great. I worked out a similar deal with Paddle Palace about the same time and mailed USATT brochures to the roughly 40,000 people on their then-mailing list, but again the response wasn't that great. Perhaps something more than a brochure was needed. Note that distributors are hesitant to send USATT brochures and other info to their mailing lists for a very simple reason - it costs them money since those who join USATT are then exposed to rival distributors. But they are willing to do it for a price.
Regarding the USATT High Performance Committee creating the rules for all team selections, that was done years ago with the idea being to take the politics out of the process by having the Board of Directors have no say in it, other than selecting the HPC. The idea is they are the experts, and so would create the best possible system for each team selection. As I've posted and blogged a number of times, I don't agree with the process for the Olympic selections. (The first time I saw them was after they were posted publicly.) At one point I thought that the board of directors could intervene any time they disagreed with the HPC, but when I looked into this last month I realized the rules were actually in the bylaws, meaning that the board couldn't intervene other than changing the bylaws themselves, i.e. taking the authority to create these rules away from the HPC, with a 2/3 vote needed. There's a zero chance of that happening - it would create a huge internal war and the votes aren't there for this at this time. I think the HPC and HP Director are hard-working and well-meaning, but I just don't agree with them on this particular issue.
Anyway, I've done my best on the USATT board of directors these past four years, and I'll be off as soon as they finish the current election, I think March 4, with one of the following three getting elected to my spot - Bruce Liu, Mike Babuin, or Lily Yip. My term as coaching chair also ends on March 1. I decided not to run for re-election or to do another term as coaching chair - just too busy and it's someone else's turn to deal with all the hassle.
(I had a previous five-year term as coaching chair, plus these two years.)
-Larry Hodges
Regarding the USATT High Performance Committee creating the rules for all team selections, that was done years ago with the idea being to take the politics out of the process by having the Board of Directors have no say in it, other than selecting the HPC. The idea is they are the experts, and so would create the best possible system for each team selection. As I've posted and blogged a number of times, I don't agree with the process for the Olympic selections. (The first time I saw them was after they were posted publicly.) At one point I thought that the board of directors could intervene any time they disagreed with the HPC, but when I looked into this last month I realized the rules were actually in the bylaws, meaning that the board couldn't intervene other than changing the bylaws themselves, i.e. taking the authority to create these rules away from the HPC, with a 2/3 vote needed. There's a zero chance of that happening - it would create a huge internal war and the votes aren't there for this at this time. I think the HPC and HP Director are hard-working and well-meaning, but I just don't agree with them on this particular issue.
Anyway, I've done my best on the USATT board of directors these past four years, and I'll be off as soon as they finish the current election, I think March 4, with one of the following three getting elected to my spot - Bruce Liu, Mike Babuin, or Lily Yip. My term as coaching chair also ends on March 1. I decided not to run for re-election or to do another term as coaching chair - just too busy and it's someone else's turn to deal with all the hassle.
(I had a previous five-year term as coaching chair, plus these two years.) -Larry Hodges
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The Board of Directors should make an attempt to change the By Laws to take control of this matter.
It is good to see Barney Reed speaking up. It would be interesting to see what members of the HPC are in agreement with this new change and how it was decided. I simply can't believe all of the HPC was on board with this change.
Selecting the majority of the players for National or Olympic teams gives way too much power to one person or a small group of people. It is also simply not fair.
Selecting the majority of the players for National or Olympic teams gives way too much power to one person or a small group of people. It is also simply not fair.
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Are you just quoting from your memory over the past 20 years, or have you simply been to the main countries website to check out the selection policy?
Over my time at TTD, it doesn't seem like much forum members knows much on the background in Europe national body structures.
Of the European languages, I only speak English, I first went TT England website to check:
This is for WTTC 2019: https://tabletennisengland.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/World-Championships-2019-v.1.0.pdf
4. Criteria
Selection can be achieved either automatically or as a wild card by the Selection Panel, as
follows:
a) Automatic Selection
Eligible athletes will gain automatic selection, subject to compliance with the rest of this
policy, if they meet one or more of the following criteria:
i. hold a top-100 ITTF senior ranking for two or more months within the qualification
period;
ii. The current English National Singles Champion as at the conclusion of the
qualification period.
In the event there are more automatic selections than places, places will be offered to
eligible players in ITTF ranking order on the most recent ITTF ranking list available at the
conclusion of the qualification period (not the selection panel meeting date).
In the event that an athlete meets both criteria, point i will be accepted first and no
further places will be offered to beaten finalists or other players within point ii.
Please help yourself (if you know more than English) to check other main countries out
https://www.ettu.org/en/about-ettu/member-associations/
I found an English portal for Belgium, but couldn't find any source for selection
German, Denmark, French didn't have English options
I think Jesperstef, the key is there is 2 kinds of entry to these tournaments:
1) self selection - if you do well in trials, or you do well in national championship (by winning), or do you well in world ranking. Mean the player have full control of his/her own fate
2) coaches selection - this is wild card selection - and this is where maybe your best player is injured for the year and has low ranking, bad or no result in world tours/national champ etc but should go with the team.
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Regarding the roughly 250,000 tables sold each year in the U.S., that is accurate. The problem is that the vast majority of them go to "basement players" who stay basement players. USATT has done deals with the table sellers at least 2-3 times. I negotiated one of them, in the 1990s with Stiga/Sears, where we were able to include a USATT brochure with something like 100,000 tables sold. Alas, the response wasn't that great. I worked out a similar deal with Paddle Palace about the same time and mailed USATT brochures to the roughly 40,000 people on their then-mailing list, but again the response wasn't that great. Perhaps something more than a brochure was needed. Note that distributors are hesitant to send USATT brochures and other info to their mailing lists for a very simple reason - it costs them money since those who join USATT are then exposed to rival distributors. But they are willing to do it for a price.
Regarding the USATT High Performance Committee creating the rules for all team selections, that was done years ago with the idea being to take the politics out of the process by having the Board of Directors have no say in it, other than selecting the HPC. The idea is they are the experts, and so would create the best possible system for each team selection. As I've posted and blogged a number of times, I don't agree with the process for the Olympic selections. (The first time I saw them was after they were posted publicly.) At one point I thought that the board of directors could intervene any time they disagreed with the HPC, but when I looked into this last month I realized the rules were actually in the bylaws, meaning that the board couldn't intervene other than changing the bylaws themselves, i.e. taking the authority to create these rules away from the HPC, with a 2/3 vote needed. There's a zero chance of that happening - it would create a huge internal war and the votes aren't there for this at this time. I think the HPC and HP Director are hard-working and well-meaning, but I just don't agree with them on this particular issue.
Anyway, I've done my best on the USATT board of directors these past four years, and I'll be off as soon as they finish the current election, I think March 4, with one of the following three getting elected to my spot - Bruce Liu, Mike Babuin, or Lily Yip. My term as coaching chair also ends on March 1. I decided not to run for re-election or to do another term as coaching chair - just too busy and it's someone else's turn to deal with all the hassle.
-Larry Hodges
Hi Larry,
a bit of a side question, but because I see USATT more important than ITTF in making grassroot table tennis a success on this planet, so I would like to ask:
How many spot is voted into the board by members of USATT?
And how many other spots on the board - and how do those board members gets appointed or earned to the spot?
Thanks
Tony
The girl, who stands at 1.56 meters, produced the biggest shock to the spectators (even if it was not much of one for Chinese coaches) during the recently concluded Asian Table Tennis Championships, beating world No. 1 and three-time Olympic champion Ding Ning after surviving five match points.
China's coach cited "post-Olympics lows" as the reason for Ding's defeat, just as in the case of dual men's Olympic champion Ma Long, who lost to South Korean Jeong Sang Eun in the round of 32.
It was Hirano's straight-set wins over world No. 2 Zhu Yuling and No. 5 Chen Meng that woke up Chinese coaches, who suspect something might be wrong with the Chinese team, at least with the young players.
"No one can beat three top Chinese players by mere luck," said Li Sun, coach of Zhu Yuling.
The coach, who had guided Wang Nan, Zhang Yining and Li Xiaoxi to top the podium in four Olympic Games, said Hirano will remain the top threat to Chinese women for the near future, adding the Japanese girl has been "underestimated" despite her status as a World Cup champion.
China's coach cited "post-Olympics lows" as the reason for Ding's defeat, just as in the case of dual men's Olympic champion Ma Long, who lost to South Korean Jeong Sang Eun in the round of 32.
It was Hirano's straight-set wins over world No. 2 Zhu Yuling and No. 5 Chen Meng that woke up Chinese coaches, who suspect something might be wrong with the Chinese team, at least with the young players.
"No one can beat three top Chinese players by mere luck," said Li Sun, coach of Zhu Yuling.
The coach, who had guided Wang Nan, Zhang Yining and Li Xiaoxi to top the podium in four Olympic Games, said Hirano will remain the top threat to Chinese women for the near future, adding the Japanese girl has been "underestimated" despite her status as a World Cup champion.
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I am quoting from memory - and the “over the past 20 years” quote was only related to selections in Denmark (like you asked).
I’ve been a coach at national “elite” clubs and at a regional training centre for a long time. During that period, I’ve coached a lot of national team players (youth and women’s players), been involved with various commitees for the Danish federation and I even attended one ETTC as a coach. So I would say that my knowledge of the Danish scene is pretty good
I’m not nearly as knowledgeable about selections in Germany and Sweden, but I do follow some (national) forums and blogs from time to time.
And to be clear: I was mainly adressing the (possible?) lack of trial tournaments in Europe compared to other parts of the World.
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I am quoting from memory - and the “over the past 20 years” quote was only related to selections in Denmark (like you asked).
I’ve been a coach at national “elite” clubs and at a regional training centre for a long time. During that period, I’ve coached a lot of national team players (youth and women’s players), been involved with various commitees for the Danish federation and I even attended one ETTC as a coach. So I would say that my knowledge of the Danish scene is pretty good
I’m not nearly as knowledgeable about selections in Germany and Sweden, but I do follow some (national) forums and blogs from time to time.
And to be clear: I was mainly adressing the (possible?) lack of trial tournaments in Europe compared to other parts of the World.
I think you are too attached to the word trials.
Trials is by merit, ranking is by merit - either way, this is the players own pathway to the top and this is what players want.
As by England, there is by ranking and no trials
the minority in England is "wild card" selection.
The problem that I am pointing out is not majority by wild card - as that is what USA has now become (and not what the players want)
So how does selection happen in Denmark.
Is it majority by wild card, or is there some form of method the player can earn selection by merit (trials, ranking all the same in this category)
You should be able to quote this with ease as you are in the "inner circle"
And again since I typed so much in my previous post - what other languages do you speak. Are you keen to help check national fed websites on selection
and since you are a mod, can you remove the spam poster???
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There are nine members of the USATT Board of Directors. They are selected or voted in based on Section 7 of the USATT Bylaws. These rules were basically forced on USATT about ten years ago by the US Olympic Committee. The nine are:
- Two At-Large Directors, voted by the membership. (I am one of them.)
- Two Player Reps, selected from among themselves by the USATT Athletes’ Advisory Council. The AAC is elected by elite athletes, those who have represented USA at the Worlds, Olympics, Paralympics, Pan Ams, or Para Pan Ams in the last ten years.
- Three Independent Directors, selected by the Nominating and Governance Committee, normally from a list provided by the USOC. They are normally not from the world of table tennis, though one of the current three (Gary) is the first table tennis player selected for one of these roles, since he is not officially affiliated in the management of any table tennis club.
- One Club Director, selected by the Nominating and Governance Committee.
- One Constituent Group (NCTTA) Representative, selected by NCTTA.
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I am happy to learn Larry had the leadership to push through and execute the very idea with potential, even if it ultimately did not work out as intended. Any idea with any merit ought to be examined and if practical, tried.
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I speak Danish and English - and I’m pretty good at understanding German and Swedish as well.
I don’t think that there are any specific rules or criteria for selection by merit in Denmark - at least not some that I could easily find on the federations site
I spend enough time finding and posting various results here, so I would like to leave it at that for now
I just find it very interesting to learn about how different countries go about their selections (like in this recent post: https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...ellous-12-2019&p=259011&viewfull=1#post259011
I don’t think that there are any specific rules or criteria for selection by merit in Denmark - at least not some that I could easily find on the federations site
I spend enough time finding and posting various results here, so I would like to leave it at that for now
I just find it very interesting to learn about how different countries go about their selections (like in this recent post: https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...ellous-12-2019&p=259011&viewfull=1#post259011
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Sorry, but from my knowledge this is not accurate, so let's please stick to the facts.
Bitzigeio didn't get suspended by the German Association. It was his own personal decision, since he felt a lot of backstabbing from his team, many people say most of the controverse was with Papa Solja, Amelie & Peti Solja's dad. It also lead to Amelie playing for Austria.
Bitzigeio was a strict coach. Too strict for some.
Here's some news when it happened.
https://m.faz.net/aktuell/sport/mehr-sport/tischtennis-damenwahl-im-nationalteam-11643879.html
So let's please stick to the facts and don't make up things 'cause they fit the argumentation and make things appear in a different light.
If Bitzigeio had such a sh*tty reputation i don't think he would have got picked for his job, no matter how good Stefan Feth might speak of him.
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Some parents of players said that Bitzigeio contacting them and their children to ask about their game and welfare was the first time anyone in the USATT had actually tried to monitor their games before they came into camp etc. Tony has strong feelings about these things, some of which I empathize and sympathize with but my whole point is that just because someone has doing it differently doesn't mean that they are doing it wrong, and that fairness has winners and losers - someone had to define what is fair.
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Defining Fair .. a trials by open competitionn for selection.
Selection by committee is highly debatable as to being fair.
Selection by committee is highly debatable as to being fair.
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When did I said he was suspended in germany?
are you the one not looking at facts on my posts?
Sorry, but I do not read German, and of what link I found, it states he left on good terms
https://www.ettu.org/en/n/news/2015/june/dttb-and-jorg-bitzigeio-go-separate-ways/
(hint, Liu Guoliang's firing and isolation, I mean promotion in the news media 2 year ago was worded in "good terms too")
I said he apparently tried the same thing back in Germany - choosing players that he feels is better and not selection others. isn't that the same thing now? coach is bigger than players pathway on merit?
Thinking back, this reminds me of Deng Yaping, she was not selected for CNT because the coaches feel she will never do well internationally (reasoning - she was too short) and guess what happened? She became national champion and CNT had no choice by include her in the international circuit, then guess what happened? so far she is the best women player of all time.
Should coaches have full realm of selecting who they think are the best - Deng Yaping would have never played a world championship... this a fact
now I didn't say I know the facts of what happened in Germany.
Did he try his approach by selecting or not selecting players? Did he force Amelia to play for Austria because Amelia could not make the German national team by merit as coaches selection the only way?
This article (which was shared by Wang Chen and I do not know where it comes from, but Wang Chen is friends who all the Chinese German coaches/players) stated "He did not believe the girls has international prospect?
Now my questions to you is, who gives the coach a right to believe the girls has or has no international prospect? if the player can get there by merit (I am assuming the sisters are good junior players back in Germany - note, I have no knowledge of German TT junior team today or back then), then what was the fight between the dad and coach about?
Leaving one country to another is not mickey mouse issue
No matter how good or not the coach is. Today's word is about democratic society - fairness.
No individual a few individuals should be allowed to determine the fate of everyone just like that. This is my stand in this whole issue.
I do not know who this coach is and barely know about him or the history.
But from what I read in this article and what is happening in USA right now, and read from some legal expertise, and see that Wang Chen has gone the legal pathway. I wish the spirit of Olympic Games as the winner here
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I have no doubt that Bitzigeio is a good trainer and good coach.
my only doubt is on his selection policies methods, as I personally believe in selection by merits as the only fairness to players and the only way the coach can not be responsible for "bad selection"
The point of argument from Wang Chen and Bruce has valid points. This selection by favoritism opens up to corruption, under the table dealings, misjudgement and potentially unfairness to players etc.
I would always rate selection by merit as fair on top of selection by committee of a few.
Maybe for you, it is more fair to select by committee than oppose to merit (because this is something new and not necessary wrong?)
No matter how good or not the coach is. Today's word is about democratic society - fairness.
No individual a few individuals should be allowed to determine the fate of everyone just like that. This is my stand in this whole issue.
I do not know who this coach is and barely know about him or the history.
But from what I read in this article and what is happening in USA right now, and read from some legal expertise, and see that Wang Chen has gone the legal pathway. I wish the spirit of Olympic Games as the winner here
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