ZhangLei on MaLong's injury: Very serious, may affect 2020 olympics.

FruitLoop said:

Samsonov is playing as much as Ma Long.

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are you kidding me? As many tournaments you mean? Because if you lose in the second round, you've only played 2 matches, if you go into the finals, you've played 2.5 times as many. And Vladi didn't have a lot of good runs the past 2 years. "A tiny handful of tournaments", really? So Ma Long's ex coach and his team current coach says he didn't have time to rest and you say he's wrong, because? How do you know besides this "an entire TT tournament = one grand slam match in tennis" stuff which is just silly? That's a rhetoric question because you obviously don't know.

Atas Newton said:

are you kidding me? As many tournaments you mean? Because if you lose in the second round, you've only played 2 matches, if you go into the finals, you've played 2.5 times as many. And Vladi didn't have a lot of good runs the past 2 years. "A tiny handful of tournaments", really? So Ma Long's ex coach and his team current coach says he didn't have time to rest and you say he's wrong, because? How do you know besides this "an entire TT tournament = one grand slam match in tennis" stuff which is just silly? That's a rhetoric question because you obviously don't know.

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You misread me. I do know because it's a simple calculated fact. I said one grand slam final run is as much time on the court as Ma Long spent in the whole YEAR.

I say they are wrong because they are. They also have plenty of reason to lie. They want to be able to blame someone else other than their own system. There is a reason Chinese players don't last long generally and it is not because ITTF made Ma Long have to enter an extra tournament a year.

They don't physically prepare their players properly, certainly not with the long haul in mind. Any absence of rest is down to them not the ITTF given the measly amount of court time already mentioned.

I don't even know what to say to your intensity comparison between sports. Like, 100m sprinters only ever perform for 10 seconds each time. That's like 15 minutes total in a year, if you compete a lot. How did Bolt ever get injured with such easy schedule? Like NextLevel said TT and tennis are completely different sports and unless you're a qualified sports physician I don't think you can confidently say tennis is more demanding.

ps: I received professional training in tennis for 7 years when I was younger. I cannot confirm at all that it's a harder sport physically.

Atas Newton said:

I don't even know what to say to your intensity comparison between sports. Like, 100m sprinters only ever perform for 10 seconds each time. That's like 15 minutes total in a year, if you compete a lot. How did Bolt ever get injured with such easy schedule? Like NextLevel said TT and tennis are completely different sports and unless you're a qualified sports physician I don't think you can confidently say tennis is more demanding.

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Sports physicians are not qualified to answer that question and it sums up why you don't get this stuff.

Intensity comparison is made because tennis is MORE intense yet they spend much longer competing. The comparison wouldn't make sense if it was much less intense. It's the opposite. It is not comparable to sprinting where a truly max out competitive effort is performed by Bolt once a year. You can't see the difference between these comparisons? You aren't very knowledgeable in this area are you?

Atas Newton said:

I don't even know what to say to your intensity comparison between sports. Like, 100m sprinters only ever perform for 10 seconds each time. That's like 15 minutes total in a year, if you compete a lot. How did Bolt ever get injured with such easy schedule? Like NextLevel said TT and tennis are completely different sports and unless you're a qualified sports physician I don't think you can confidently say tennis is more demanding.

ps: I received professional training in tennis for 7 years when I was younger. I cannot confirm at all that it's a harder sport physically.

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Why would I want you to confirm with your 7 years training? It's irrelevant. Your anecdotal data point is useless. It is clearly more demanding. We can measure it scientifically.

FruitLoop said:

I disagree, you could not play tennis, just to use you as an example. They put in vastly more miles at a higher intensity. It's harder on both the aerobic/anaerobic system and on the joints in terms of forces. The forces around the elbow when serving alone is more than a table tennis player would experience on any shot, nevermind knees on hard courts etc.

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People in wheelchairs can play tennis. The issue is whether the movements at the highest levels are more or less demanding on the body. My point is that there are people who have played both sports who find table tennis more dangerous to the body even if they find tennis a better work out. My point is that you are conflating both issues. The level of play matters. And some of this is plastic ball related.

FruitLoop said:

Sports physicians are not qualified to answer that question and it sums up why you don't get this stuff.

Intensity comparison is made because tennis is MORE intense yet they spend much longer competing. The comparison wouldn't make sense if it was much less intense. It's the opposite. It is not comparable to sprinting where a truly max out competitive effort is performed by Bolt once a year. You can't see the difference between these comparisons? You aren't very knowledgeable in this area are you?

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you failed to comprehend what my post was about and now you call me stupid, how ironic. I made a nonsensical analogy to demonstrate that time spent during competition means absolutely nothing in itself. It wasn't me who said "oh but Ma Long's only played for 18 hours the entire year", remember? Now you're saying you can't compare tennis to sprinting based on the time alone. How are you comparing it to table tennis then? Besides, how many minutes does Djokovic spend it a 6hour match bouncing the ball before his serves? Or between the sets? Or after every 3rd game, sitting in his chair? You conviniently ignored all of those. I realize it's nothing, compared to actual time on court, I'm just saying your arguments aren't even close to formal, which you pretend they are. Btw, how many years of experience do YOU have in tennis? Because I can tell you're talking out your ass about many things.

Atas Newton said:

you failed to comprehend what my post was about and now you call me stupid, how ironic. I made a nonsensical analogy to demonstrate that time spent during competition means absolutely nothing in itself. It wasn't me who said "oh but Ma Long's only played for 18 hours the entire year", remember? Now you're saying you can't compare tennis to sprinting based on the time alone. How are you comparing it to table tennis then? Besides, how many minutes does Djokovic spend it a 6hour match bouncing the ball before his serves? Or between the sets? Or after every 3rd game, sitting in his chair? You conviniently ignored all of those. I realize it's nothing, compared to actual time on court, I'm just saying your arguments aren't even close to formal, which you pretend they are. Btw, how many years of experience do YOU have in tennis? Because I can tell you're talking out your ass about many things.

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It means nothing itself, of course. That's why I used an analogy that picked a specifically more intense and physically demanding sport to make a direct comparison with.

I am not here to make formal arguments this isn't a debating society. There is a reason that you generally don't play more than one tennis match in a day but in table tennis it's not uncommon to play 6+.

There is a reason 11 year olds can beat professional table tennis players and cannot in tennis and it's not because it is more physically demanding. Tennis requires a larger amount of physical effort in every conceivable way. Each shot is on average more intense an effort, there are more shots per match, they move a lot further per match, their max efforts for example first serves are eons ahead of anything in table tennis. Their points last longer on average not only in time but per stroke. And they are on court a hell of a lot longer on top of this. Shifting direction is more demanding on the joints because they are moving at a greater velocity, they both accelerate and decelerate at a higher rate. It blows table tennis out of the water in terms of physical demands on both the anaerobic or aerobic systems.

You can't tell I am talking out of my ass about many things because you can't even make a coherent argument yourself, nor understand anyone elses. It's like a flat earther thinking a NASA scientist is talking out of their ass.

NextLevel said:

People in wheelchairs can play tennis. The issue is whether the movements at the highest levels are more or less demanding on the body. My point is that there are people who have played both sports who find table tennis more dangerous to the body even if they find tennis a better work out. My point is that you are conflating both issues. The level of play matters. And some of this is plastic ball related.

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They can, but they let the ball bounce twice. They can also play table tennis but only the serves can't go off the sides otherwise it's the same and they can compete with able bodied players. I have a friend who does that and he literally anchors his chair and plays against able bodied players....this isn't helping your argument.

Tennis is more physically demanding, mostly because of the running. Also the racket and ball are heavier, you often play outside under the sun, etc. But over time I think table tennis is tougher on the joints, simply because of the faster tempo. You have to repeat the same motions a lot more which is the recipe for repetitive stress injuries.

It's worth noting that tournament and league matches are only the tip of the iceberg for pro players in both sports. The vast majority of time is spent and most injuries come from and happen during training.

Atas Newton said:

Samsonov isn't playing a lot, he's not affected by the new system, but his ranking is. Fed is a one off. Timo had no problems when he was 36. And if two top teams are seemingly to blame, you know it's the system that's f'd up.

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Ma Long didn't play more than Samsonov last year, he played 39 ITTF games last year compared to 40 Samsonov games according to the ITTF statistics page. In fact both of them didn't play a lot, for example Wong Chun Ting has more than twice the match count.

FruitLoop said:

Why would I want you to confirm with your 7 years training? It's irrelevant. Your anecdotal data point is useless. It is clearly more demanding. We can measure it scientifically.

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is that your way of saying "ok sir I clearly don't have nearly the experience you do so I'll try speaking less confidently about something I have no idea about"? If so, I accept your apologies.

Atas Newton said:

is that your way of saying "ok sir I clearly don't have nearly the experience you do so I'll try speaking less confidently about something I have no idea about"? If so, I accept your apologies.

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You are making the appeal to authority fallacy here, except you are trying to establish yourself as the authority. It's how not to win an argument 101 and make yourself look like an ass in the process.

Guys stop talking facts here, it gets in the way of a good anecdote trying to blame shift from the Chinese national team.

mrk said:

Ma Long didn't play more than Samsonov last year, he played 39 ITTF games last year compared to 40 Samsonov games according to the ITTF statistics page. In fact both of them didn't play a lot, for example Wong Chung Ting has more than twice the match count.

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yes, I suspected a figure like that because Ma Long sat out a big portion of the year. Injuries mainly come from the frequency, which for Ma Long was far greater. He had a lot more games at Team World Cup, more games at WTTTC, a lot more games at almost each ITTF pro tour event prior to his injury. Vladi had his games more spread out. To be more precise, Vladi had only played 18 games at the time Ma Long has played his 43rd at German Open. That's almost 2.5x more. That information is open to everyone btw so you can understand why it pisses me off when mr. Never Check His Facts claims that

FruitLoop said:

Samsonov is playing as much as Ma Long.

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Also, ITTF stats page doesn't include Chinese Super League.

Dr Evil said:

It's worth noting that tournament and league matches are only the tip of the iceberg for pro players in both sports. The vast majority of time is spent and most injuries come from and happen during training.

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FruitLoop liked your post, he thinks it agrees with him. He doesn't realize that massive amount of practice time is an absolute requirement to be able to perform at the said tournament and league matches, and NOT something a player or his coaches or his national team can just skip in favor of the player's fitness. If you want to participate in all those tournaments, you gotta work your ass off. Alternatively, you can do precisely what Ma Long did: sign in, claim injury, meet formal requirements of the number of tournaments. Because that's what we all want to see, right FruitLoop?

NextLevel said:

I agree with your opinion. Part of it I think is overuse of the body and another part is the inflammation caused by the powering of the body repeatedly with carbohydrates. But we will see how some of these things change over the coming decade.

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NL is all over it... and many will call his opinion quackery... all while those who make and market expensive addictive drugs and those who prescribe them laugh all the way to the bank...

Yet, if someone gets a tendon injury, it is a difficult thing to heal in a timely manner. They do not get so much blood flow and many systems do not believe in increasing blood flow or the use of infrared/near infrared, photon, or laser treatment to speed things up.

These athletes get to training too soon and tear it all up again and are worse off. There is always the pressure to return too soon or over-use the area before it is ready for that kind of load... yet it is important to use it to a reasonable level to promote healing.

NextLevel said:

I agree with your opinion. Part of it I think is overuse of the body and another part is the inflammation caused by the powering of the body repeatedly with carbohydrates. But we will see how some of these things change over the coming decade.

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zeio said:

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I do not see a mad rush to pound the like button on this post, yet it is a great candidate for that.

Atas Newton said:

FruitLoop liked your post, he thinks it agrees with him. He doesn't realize that massive amount of practice time is an absolute requirement to be able to perform at the said tournament and league matches, and NOT something a player or his coaches or his national team can just skip in favor of the player's fitness. If you want to participate in all those tournaments, you gotta work your ass off. Alternatively, you can do precisely what Ma Long did: sign in, claim injury, meet formal requirements of the number of tournaments. Because that's what we all want to see, right FruitLoop?

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MASSIVE injury busting amount of practice with inadequate prehab to prevent injury is a requirement! You can't adequately plan training loads or prepare an athlete physically to meet the demands of a small number of tournaments a year. Impossible. All hail China and booo evil ITTF. They should cancel all competitions except for the World Championship and Olympics. We can't have our precious players be forced to actually compete more than once every two years. It's just not possible to do it without killing yourself in training!

FruitLoop said:

They can, but they let the ball bounce twice. They can also play table tennis but only the serves can't go off the sides otherwise it's the same and they can compete with able bodied players. I have a friend who does that and he literally anchors his chair and plays against able bodied players....this isn't helping your argument.

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It is - the problem is that you are exclusively focused on mobility because you don't have an appreciation of the full impact of TT on the body. As in, I know people who play both, and find it easier to play tennis than table tennis. There is an unnatural focus on bending knees and staying low in table tennis and the strokes stress the tendons unnaturally. The sports have different physical demands on the body at the highest levels. Even the way I play now is not the same as the way I played when I was fitter. Both are sports that injure people but you don't have a serious idea of the degree of repetitive stress injury that is possible with table tennis.