19th Asian Games Hangzhou
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A lot is clearly broken in TT, I am not sure whether it is because there isn't enough money in the sport that no one obviously cares in investigative journalism. But Shahara already showed us that you could do ridiculous things and get away with it.
says
Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
The rules were slightly changed for 2023. They consolidated in a separate paragraph (underlined below) what should happen when an event is undersubscribed.
https://wttwebcmsprod.blob.core.windows.net/technicaldocuments/WTT_Series & Feeder_Handbook_2023.pdf
https://wttwebcmsprod.blob.core.windows.net/technicaldocuments/WTT_Series & Feeder_Handbook_2022.pdf
https://wttwebcmsprod.blob.core.windows.net/technicaldocuments/WTT_Series & Feeder_Handbook_2023.pdf
https://wttwebcmsprod.blob.core.windows.net/technicaldocuments/WTT_Series & Feeder_Handbook_2022.pdf
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CNT has a bunch of unranked accepted.
They always seem to be the first to know of under entered event too.
So there is still a lot of questions marks.
Korean and Japanese players themselves are clueless on how CNT manage to enter so many. and the question was raised in 2022 already, before the 2023 updates.... no explanation received for 2022 entries....
Regarding contingent at Durban - CNT had near 60, with another 9 from DHS, whose primary role does include supporting CNT too, Taiwan had around 20.
While smaller countries got 1 box of balls (6 balls per player entered), 3 days prior to the start of tournament - PS, I also got a box too
CNT came with there thousands of official match balls and using them 10 days prior to the tournament at they own personal training hall, clone of the WTTC venue.
I can name over 20 things on special treatment. I don't think it is necessary as it does waste my time.
You know what some pros told me about CNT's WTT entry?
Because China brings in the sponsors, they have the monetary influence and with a snap of a finger, all sponsors could part ways.
They always seem to be the first to know of under entered event too.
So there is still a lot of questions marks.
Korean and Japanese players themselves are clueless on how CNT manage to enter so many. and the question was raised in 2022 already, before the 2023 updates.... no explanation received for 2022 entries....
Regarding contingent at Durban - CNT had near 60, with another 9 from DHS, whose primary role does include supporting CNT too, Taiwan had around 20.
While smaller countries got 1 box of balls (6 balls per player entered), 3 days prior to the start of tournament - PS, I also got a box too
CNT came with there thousands of official match balls and using them 10 days prior to the tournament at they own personal training hall, clone of the WTTC venue.
I can name over 20 things on special treatment. I don't think it is necessary as it does waste my time.
You know what some pros told me about CNT's WTT entry?
Because China brings in the sponsors, they have the monetary influence and with a snap of a finger, all sponsors could part ways.
says
Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
All CHN MS/WS entries are ranked.
TTWR used for entries:
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/2023_36_SEN_MS.html
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/2023_36_SEN_WS.html
TTWR used for seeding:
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023_40_SEN_MS.html
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023_40_SEN_WS.html
CHN MS
TTWR used for entries:
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/2023_36_SEN_MS.html
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/2023_36_SEN_WS.html
TTWR used for seeding:
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023_40_SEN_MS.html
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023_40_SEN_WS.html
CHN MS
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says
Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
MS entries (total, main draw/qualification draw):
CHN: 11, 11/0
HKG: 8, 1/7
JPN: 8, 6/2
IND: 5, 4/1
KOR: 5, 4/1
TPE: 4, 3/1
USA: 3, 0/3
AUT: 2, 2/0
ENG: 2, 2/0
FRA: 2, 2/0
GER: 2, 2/0
VEN: 2, 0/2
ALG: 1, 1/0
CAN: 1, 0/1
MEX: 1, 0/1
SGP: 1, 1/0
TOTAL: 58, 39/19
WS entries (total and all main draw):
CHN: 12
KOR: 9
HKG: 6
TPE: 5
JPN: 4
SGP: 3
VEN: 2
GER: 1
IND: 1
POR: 1
PUR: 1
USA: 1
WAL: 1
TOTAL: 47
CHN: 11, 11/0
HKG: 8, 1/7
JPN: 8, 6/2
IND: 5, 4/1
KOR: 5, 4/1
TPE: 4, 3/1
USA: 3, 0/3
AUT: 2, 2/0
ENG: 2, 2/0
FRA: 2, 2/0
GER: 2, 2/0
VEN: 2, 0/2
ALG: 1, 1/0
CAN: 1, 0/1
MEX: 1, 0/1
SGP: 1, 1/0
TOTAL: 58, 39/19
WS entries (total and all main draw):
CHN: 12
KOR: 9
HKG: 6
TPE: 5
JPN: 4
SGP: 3
VEN: 2
GER: 1
IND: 1
POR: 1
PUR: 1
USA: 1
WAL: 1
TOTAL: 47
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says
Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
Remember how you PMed me why China could have so many players entered at WTT CT Almaty 2022?
I've been keeping an eye on whether WTT has been sticking to their rules on MyTT. I have had a problem with how the wildcards and WTT Nominations are handed out (which is not bound by any rules), but other than a few times they had to break the rules (namely WTT European Summer Series 2022), the folks have been playing by the rules.
I've been keeping an eye on whether WTT has been sticking to their rules on MyTT. I have had a problem with how the wildcards and WTT Nominations are handed out (which is not bound by any rules), but other than a few times they had to break the rules (namely WTT European Summer Series 2022), the folks have been playing by the rules.
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Almaty 2022 CNT had 0 pointed additional entries
I think the bigger problem is, how MA are informed of opportunities in additional entries.
Players talk among themselves, especially if they are like number 7 and only 6 can enter and then they talk with other number 7s of - hey did you guys get informed of under entered, so you can enter.
Things should be open cards, there isn't too many countries benefiting, I think you follow the entry list more than me - maybe you can tell me, other than China, who else has been benefiting and that can explain a lot more things better
Balls and training hall are skill issues.. tbh.
Nobody is stopping any team from buying balls from DHS; I assume that's what the Chinese are doing. Nobody is stopping them from renting a hall too tbh.
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No one is stopping them sure, but the budget required to do so would be the entire TT investment of some countries in a year. Then to fly out DHS and training partners and analytics teams etc. The point is not so much that they are doing something illegal, but that when people are talking about leveling up with China and focusing on things like talent, they should understand how much investment China is putting into maintaining its edge, so that they stop pretending that people like Harimoto are doing something trivially wrong because they are not beating the Chinese.
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oh, its a connection issue too, not just money issue.
The balls used this time was a special Double Fish ball, even though it is branded V40+, it is different to the ones commericial sold - DF told me this directly.
Few national team coaches asked me to arrange more balls with DF
DF had them made and ship them to ITTF directly and teams had to get them from ITTF at the tournament, and even DF did not have any "additional" balls on site at Durban to be sold to national teams, even if national teams wanted to pay the full retail price.
I'm not sure why I am wasting my time explaining these things to you.
The field is not even. As I said, I have more than 20 things I can list, but even if I list 200, you probably still don't believe me
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says
Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
After TTWR, the remaining spots become available on a first come, first served basis.
At WTT CT Almaty 2023, JPN had 1 unranked entry by wildcard in MS qualification, whereas KOR had 3 unranked entries in WS qualification.
If you want to find fault with preferential treatment, I have an example here. For WTT FEE Fremont 2022 and WTT FEE Westchester 2022, CIC (WR13 at the time of entry) and CSY (WR24) were given WTT Nominations over Ito (WR4). CCY, the top seed (WR25), also got in by WTT Nomination for both events.
2022 Week 14 – 5th April 2022
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/2022_14_SEN_WS.html
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/2022_14_SEN_MS.html
https://wttwebcmsprod.blob.core.windows.net/technicaldocuments/WTT_Series & Feeder_Handbook_2023.pdf
https://wttwebcmsprod.blob.core.windows.net/technicaldocuments/WTT_Series & Feeder_Handbook_2022.pdf
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For the argument's sake, it's hard to believe that Japan is unable to organize analytics teams, training partners, etc. Europeans' case is easy, but Japan? It is pretty invested. I can understand that something like having imitating players is unattainable if only for ethical reasons, but otherwise Japan's infrastructure looks fantastic.
And then in the men's game the situation is such that only top 4 chinese are unbeatable. I remember Aruna taking out three chinese in a row in Doha last year. If it was only for the organization, wouldn't all chinese be out of everyone else's league? (It's not in the Chinese interests, they need to keep competition, but still).
> that they stop pretending that people like Harimoto are doing something trivially wrong because they are not beating the Chinese.
If, again for the argument's sake, we mirror the argument, wouldn't it be fair to say that ML, FZD, WCQ and LJK (LSD on the way) have trivially more complete game and are just trivially better players (and the credit must go to intelligent coaching rather than the system)? Sure, TH can pull out a match or two here and there, but these guys are just better. And no, H3 won't fix this.
It all cycles back to other countries investing; The big powers in this sport apart from Qatar (Korea, Japan, Germany, Sweden, France, even Taipei) are not "friends" with China ( Zeio - I get your point but please, this conversation is not about developing countries), and they have the money to invest, they could do a coalition or whatever to pool resources.
If they have the money to sponsor U15s, U13s, U11s like I see on the Youth feeder events. They defo have the cash to bring sponsors to WTT and to bid for events, they have the cash to throw their weight around, to ask Mizuno or Joola or Tenergy or ESN or Stiga to make balls for tournaments. I don't think a big tourney can hold in any of the aforementioned countries and they'll agree with whatever "unfair" strategies that the Chinese are using.
Japan that signs up 3 or 4 coaches for their top players can definitely do this, their players use DHS, they can rent halls and buy balls if they really want it.
Can't leave the sponsors and investment up to the Chinese, and then expect them not to do their all to win in a competitive sport. Every one of these countries will do the same if they were in China's position. This is not some egalitarian charity project.
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I understand what you are trying to say, but that is not my main point and I don't think it is fair to disregard my main point even if you disagree with it "just for arguments sake". China is doing just about everything it can to maintain its edge. They try to eliminate all the risk, they don't just make it a battle of skill. And no, just because you don't live in Japan doesn't let you argue that Japan should be able to do what China does. The main point here is that with China, they try to eliminate the accidents. They invest so much that they squeeze out as much as they can of the final 5% that cannot be controlled for strictly by daily training or things like that.
Richard Prause made a similar point to you - there aren't that many special players in China on the level of Boll and Dima. The point I am making is that when Boll and Dima and Harimoto and Lin Yun Ju and Moregardh are losing almost everytime when it matters to the Chinese, you have to look at the big picture and ask yourself what is going on. Today we will see Felix play Lin. We will see from the result whether you will argue that Lin is trivially better than Felix. Sure you can say it is coaching, or the player development and all that stuff and I will not argue with any of that. I am just pointing out that one team is doing *everything* it can to win, while the other team is working hard. If the team that is working hard is losing, then why act as if something is majorly wrong with them? You can only pretend it is training if you think the only thing that the other team is doing is training.
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I
For guys like Boll or Otcharov, theyve done all they can to play at the top of their ability. Dima just barely lost to ML at the Olympics. So he has nothing to be ashamed of.
But to me, harimoto is in a different situation. He is more talented than Dima, yet he hasn't done enough to fix his glaring fh weakness. In Harimoto's case, you cant blame the ball or not having enough arena practice time. His biggest issue is his own limitations of his style and technique
Agree with that CNT has every little advantage.
For guys like Boll or Otcharov, theyve done all they can to play at the top of their ability. Dima just barely lost to ML at the Olympics. So he has nothing to be ashamed of.
But to me, harimoto is in a different situation. He is more talented than Dima, yet he hasn't done enough to fix his glaring fh weakness. In Harimoto's case, you cant blame the ball or not having enough arena practice time. His biggest issue is his own limitations of his style and technique
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Again, you are writing like someone who has never played table tennis. Table tennis technical development is largely an evolutionary process, you build on the existing base, you cannot destroy an existing base especially when it has produced significant success. It is not a revolutionary process, where you can just destroy whatever existed and start all over, unless you are going to stop playing for a year and just focus on technique.
Harimoto has a strong, close to the table countering game. Rapid backhand and forehand attacks. That is his game. He is not going to change it to start playing like Fan Zhendong or Ma Long. If he does, you will be among the people to say his game is going nowhere when his results fail. He can add some elements of Fan or Ma and he already has. But he cannot change his game completely.
It's a bit dishonest to compare a 20 year old to a 40 year old and a 34 year old as if they had done half the things he had done at his age. In fact, most Harimoto watches have marvelled at the level of technical development he has achieved in the past 2 years with his forehand, even the CNT players he beat were impressed. For you, it is just a matter of "he missed his forehand in mixed doubles, it doesn't work". LEt's remember, Dima was so desparate that he tried H3 under the coaching of Persson (Swedish Coach) and after losing with it, he and the coach separated - he was already almost 30 at this time. Harimoto at 20 is nowhere close to that, but again, anyone who has watched Harimoto can see the major strides in his game.
Haha, no, ironically I wouldn't say this about Felix.
We don't really disagree here. I think the top Chinese are objectively stronger and their federation does everything to eliminate randomness — you have very well summarized it all.
But they are stronger and have to have a good power reserve, since it's very hard to be on top, where underdogs have nothing to lose. And tbh it looks to me that Chinese are not that strong mentally and they have to compensate for it with better game. And the federation's tricks, yes.
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