19th Asian Games Hangzhou

[longrange]

Again, you are writing like someone who has never played table tennis. Table tennis technical development is largely an evolutionary process, you build on the existing base, you cannot destroy an existing base especially when it has produced significant success. It is not a revolutionary process, where you can just destroy whatever existed and start all over, unless you are going to stop playing for a year and just focus on technique.

Harimoto has a strong, close to the table countering game. Rapid backhand and forehand attacks. That is his game. He is not going to change it to start playing like Fan Zhendong or Ma Long. If he does, you will be among the people to say his game is going nowhere when his results fail. He can add some elements of Fan or Ma and he already has. But he cannot change his game completely.

You can call it a "base" or a "birth injury". What if quick countering style has a natural limit in men's game? Michael is trying to point to this.

And then I heard one coach's opinion that many young players start near the table but cannot maintain this game when they mature due to, basically, the physiology.

 

[Shine]

I understand what you are trying to say, but that is not my main point and I don't think it is fair to disregard my main point even if you disagree with it "just for arguments sake". China is doing just about everything it can to maintain its edge. They try to eliminate all the risk, they don't just make it a battle of skill. And no, just because you don't live in Japan doesn't let you argue that Japan should be able to do what China does. The main point here is that with China, they try to eliminate the accidents. They invest so much that they squeeze out as much as they can of the final 5% that cannot be controlled for strictly by daily training or things like that.

Richard Prause made a similar point to you - there aren't that many special players in China on the level of Boll and Dima. The point I am making is that when Boll and Dima and Harimoto and Lin Yun Ju and Moregardh are losing almost everytime when it matters to the Chinese, you have to look at the big picture and ask yourself what is going on. Today we will see Felix play Lin. We will see from the result whether you will argue that Lin is trivially better than Felix. Sure you can say it is coaching, or the player development and all that stuff and I will not argue with any of that. I am just pointing out that one team is doing *everything* it can to win, while the other team is working hard. If the team that is working hard is losing, then why act as if something is majorly wrong with them? You can only pretend it is training if you think the only thing that the other team is doing is training.

Japan definitely did all they could to win at Tokyo, guess which NA pushed for mixed doubles and see how that ended for them? You wanna quantify the intense preparation too?, I guess after Tokyo they relaxed or something...

China's focus in recent years in sport has definitely not been table tennis, it's been winter sports, volleyball and football and basketball. You can check out their news; never seen any emphasis put on table tennis from their Gen Sec or the politburo. Lots of talk about winter sports and football and their tech ascent of course
I bet if a researcher can take stock of it; the average Japanese National player has more investment per capita than the Chinese; these are players that bring and cook their own cheap noodles on a regular at normal tour events, I've even heard of Ma Lin being the cook at a WTTC or Olympics, that doesn't sound like "lots of resources" to me.
When there is a will, there is a way.

 

[Richie]

I

Agree with that CNT has every little advantage.

For guys like Boll or Otcharov, theyve done all they can to play at the top of their ability. Dima just barely lost to ML at the Olympics. So he has nothing to be ashamed of.

But to me, harimoto is in a different situation. He is more talented than Dima, yet he hasn't done enough to fix his glaring fh weakness. In Harimoto's case, you cant blame the ball or not having enough arena practice time. His biggest issue is his own limitations of his style and technique

Perhaps Harimoto isn't as talented as you make him out to be (what are you even considering to be "talent?"). Maybe it was just the training from a very young age with experienced parents and players and he isn't as talented as you believe him to be. Would that change your attitude towards him, if you considered him to be less of a talent?

How do you know what he has done? Also, when you're suggesting him to use H3, what exactly are you saying about him and his entire team? Are you more competent than they are in making these decisions?

I'm still impressed that someone with a glaring FH weakness can beat FZD and WCQ back to back. But I suppose you wish to never see him lose to lower ranked players (which happens to almost every player, if you look).
I'm curious to know your actual intentions. There must be some reason you focus so heavily on Harimoto. You're saying it's because he was so talented.

Do you want to see Harimoto reach the very top and therefore you're trying to figure out what he's lacking to get there?
Do you dislike Harimoto because of his excessive screaming and like pointing out what he lacks?
Or is it just that you're genuinely curious as to why Harimoto isn't the best yet because of his talent and you're surprised about his current development?

If not, what is it about? Perhaps you should simply hold him to a lower standard. But the reality is that the things you're surprised about, aren't things you should be surprised about. For some of the reasons NL mentioned.

 

[zeio]

Japan definitely did all they could to win at Tokyo, guess which NA pushed for mixed doubles and see how that ended for them?

HKG was the one that pushed for it at the very start and they ended up losing 3-4 to FRA in QF. T_T

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/tokyo-2020-2020-7-24-8-9.23698/post-349686

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

It all cycles back to other countries investing; The big powers in this sport apart from Qatar (Korea, Japan, Germany, Sweden, France, even Taipei) are not "friends" with China ( Zeio - I get your point but please, this conversation is not about developing countries), and they have the money to invest, they could do a coalition or whatever to pool resources.
If they have the money to sponsor U15s, U13s, U11s like I see on the Youth feeder events. They defo have the cash to bring sponsors to WTT and to bid for events, they have the cash to throw their weight around, to ask Mizuno or Joola or Tenergy or ESN or Stiga to make balls for tournaments. I don't think a big tourney can hold in any of the aforementioned countries and they'll agree with whatever "unfair" strategies that the Chinese are using.
Japan that signs up 3 or 4 coaches for their top players can definitely do this, their players use DHS, they can rent halls and buy balls if they really want it.
Can't leave the sponsors and investment up to the Chinese, and then expect them not to do their all to win in a competitive sport. Every one of these countries will do the same if they were in China's position. This is not some egalitarian charity project.

you still don't understand what I am saying.
bro.... when coaches asked Double Fish for match balls, they said - we don't have, gave all to ITTF
when ask ITTF, they say here, 6 balls per player
But hey, CNT has hundreds of balls per player
Double Fish made 9000 balls for Durban
I can't explain it more easier that CNT gets special treatment with match balls.

Are you a CTTA troll?

 

[zeio]

And tbh it looks to me that Chinese are not that strong mentally and they have to compensate for it with better game. And the federation's tricks, yes.

Hirano begs to differ. Mizutani also commented on that.

http://mytabletennis.net/Forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1145047
http://mytabletennis.net/Forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1145248

http://mytabletennis.net/Forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1145041

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I've even heard of Ma Lin being the cook at a WTTC or Olympics, that doesn't sound like "lots of resources" to me.
When there is a will, there is a way.

haha, okay,
Ma Lin, the chef

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Perhaps Harimoto isn't as talented as you make him out to be (what are you even considering to be "talent?").

Dima had a very weak FH at Harimoto's current age.
I think Michael Z has no idea of the progress of Dima over the years and comparing a current Dima to a current HT, but forgot the age gap inbetween, and how much extra Dima went through, and over a long period of time.
Including moving to H3 rubber that destroyed his world ranking

The comparison that Mz/tb is doing, there is not a single talent
Not even Timo Boll, no one except for RSM and WS, who won gold medals in the past 20 years

 

[zeio]

For the argument's sake, it's hard to believe that Japan is unable to organize analytics teams, training partners, etc. Europeans' case is easy, but Japan? It is pretty invested. I can understand that something like having imitating players is unattainable if only for ethical reasons, but otherwise Japan's infrastructure looks fantastic.

And then in the men's game the situation is such that only top 4 chinese are unbeatable. I remember Aruna taking out three chinese in a row in Doha last year. If it was only for the organization, wouldn't all chinese be out of everyone else's league? (It's not in the Chinese interests, they need to keep competition, but still).

> that they stop pretending that people like Harimoto are doing something trivially wrong because they are not beating the Chinese.

If, again for the argument's sake, we mirror the argument, wouldn't it be fair to say that ML, FZD, WCQ and LJK (LSD on the way) have trivially more complete game and are just trivially better players (and the credit must go to intelligent coaching rather than the system)? Sure, TH can pull out a match or two here and there, but these guys are just better. And no, H3 won't fix this.

The biggest issue Japan faces is coaching, which LGL pointed out in early 2018. Mizutani mentioned that in a recent interview as a reason why they can't beat China. Tanaka also touched on the difference between Japanese and Chinese coaches after 3-2 WCQ at ATTC 2023.

 

[Shine]

you still don't understand what I am saying.
bro.... when coaches asked Double Fish for match balls, they said - we don't have, gave all to ITTF
when ask ITTF, they say here, 6 balls per player
But hey, CNT has hundreds of balls per player
Double Fish made 9000 balls for Durban
I can't explain it more easier that CNT gets special treatment with match balls.

Are you a CTTA troll?

I definitely acknowledged the privilege earlier, maybe you missed it, but I have some curiosities that I hope you might consider and give a rebuttal

Were the NAs you're in communication with unable to order balls from DF way before the tournament started, specifically after the announcement of Durban as the host and DHS/DF as equipment suppliers?

Were they unable to do this at the turn of the year, if procuring them on an order 2 years prior was impossible?

Or Did they ask you to help them get balls at the venue or a week or two before the tournament started, when quality control of the balls were the priority of the companies and production was more or less complete??

Leaving that behind, China has balls privilege, okay since you've glossed over this point, I'll repeat it again; what are the NA's doing to counteract that?, What are they investing into the flagship TT companies in their countries? What effort are they putting into bidding for events and influencing the status quo? What are they investing into TT beyond the bare minimum of training their athletes ( I'm referring to the developed countries here), their per capita GDP is 2-3 times that of China, they definitely can do better

Paris is hosting the Olympics next year, that's prime home advantage to enforce "fair" rules; what's the Federation Francaise de tennis de table doing to secure EU sponsors or are they just gonna wait for the China Construction Bank to table an offer? What's up with Joola, Are they readying a table and balls to put up in the bidding process for the equipment supplier or are they waiting for DHS/DF to come again??

It's time for the NAs to take responsibility for the outcomes they want, "Disagreeing" with the WTT can't cut it.

Seems Japan has finally decided to suck it up, thanks to Hayata, and they're bringing the women's world cup to Japan, time to be active and enforce THEIR RULES, and no claiming victim.

Oh and I'm Li Qiang's long lost brother btw, since disagreeing with your assessment must mean I'm a troll. I'm a big red

 

[TensorBackhand]

You can call it a "base" or a "birth injury". What if quick countering style has a natural limit in men's game? Michael is trying to point to this.

And then I heard one coach's opinion that many young players start near the table but cannot maintain this game when they mature due to, basically, the physiology.

Yes, basically Harimoto' near table fast attack game is very youthful. It works well when you are young, fast, and physically weaker. But it starts showing limitations at senior level. Harimoto isnt doing enough to evolve into a more dominating style to shorten points and play more efficiently.

I mentioned Michael Chang, success as a junior, but limitations in power as a senior.

A lot of boxers are this way too. They can win the olympic gold, but that doesnt translate into a strong pro boxer. To be a good pro, its more about power and physical explosiveness.

So to me, Harimoto has himself to blame. It doesnt seem like he's done enough to change his fh.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Perhaps Harimoto isn't as talented as you make him out to be (what are you even considering to be "talent?"). Maybe it was just the training from a very young age with experienced parents and players and he isn't as talented as you believe him to be. Would that change your attitude towards him, if you considered him to be less of a talent?

How do you know what he has done? Also, when you're suggesting him to use H3, what exactly are you saying about him and his entire team? Are you more competent than they are in making these decisions?

I'm still impressed that someone with a glaring FH weakness can beat FZD and WCQ back to back. But I suppose you wish to never see him lose to lower ranked players (which happens to almost every player, if you look).
I'm curious to know your actual intentions. There must be some reason you focus so heavily on Harimoto. You're saying it's because he was so talented.

Do you want to see Harimoto reach the very top and therefore you're trying to figure out what he's lacking to get there?
Do you dislike Harimoto because of his excessive screaming and like pointing out what he lacks?
Or is it just that you're genuinely curious as to why Harimoto isn't the best yet because of his talent and you're surprised about his current development?

If not, what is it about? Perhaps you should simply hold him to a lower standard. But the reality is that the things you're surprised about, aren't things you should be surprised about. For some of the reasons NL mentioned.

I just enjoy the optimization problem. I see a 14 year old beating top senior names, and i think he should be the best ever. But his game hasnt kept pace.

Its not just the H3, its the shortening of points, pivoting to finish a point, playing more efficiently. Why hit 12 shots to win a point when you can win in 3?

 

[NextLevel]

You can call it a "base" or a "birth injury". What if quick countering style has a natural limit in men's game? Michael is trying to point to this.

And then I heard one coach's opinion that many young players start near the table but cannot maintain this game when they mature due to, basically, the physiology.

"Everyone" on some level believes this is true, and no, it isn't primarily physiological, unless physiological is a very complex term which combines reaction time, anticipation, male playing power, and spin variation. But Harimoto has made it work far beyond what people thought was possible. So part of the question is if Harimoto has advanced the limit, what is the true limit? Remember when people thought no one would run a 4-minute mile?

Part of what makes Harimoto's task complicated is that he is building out a style that doesn't have a known path at the level he is playing. And he is trying to take skills that he is learning and make them *world class* without taking an extended period off playing. He is trying to really maintain his backhand orientation and supplement it with a forehand backup. This is his style, and he takes pride in it. People have already told him it is impossible to win like this, so what, he has won a lot like this already.

Maybe he would have been coached out of his style had he been on the CNT. But again, you can see that he is working really hard on things. But there is a lot of room and time for him to build out things, he is trying to do them and retain what makes his style special. I can empathize with this, I am a close to the table player, mostly because of injury, so I lose a lot of points holding the table, but it is the way I Want to play, I am not going to run around a lot even if it wins points, because I can't and because I don't want to. I want to win and lose with the weapons I have, I Want to play the style I developed, not become some cheap copy of another style.

The real issue is the people trying to use his early success to ridicule his current efforts.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Harimoto reminds me of Zou Shiming, the boxer. He won 2 Olympic gold medals and 3 World Championships as a amateur boxer. Then he turned pro and thought he would continue his success. He hired Freddie Roach, who trained Manny Pacquiao and many consider to be one of the greatest trainers of all time.

Roach saw that Zhou's amateur style would never work in the pro level, so he tried to evolve his style focusing on clean power punching, fundamental defense, and forward pressure. It looked good in the gym, but when the fight started, he would always revert back to his old amateur style. His amateur style involved a lot of "slapping" punches and quick combinations, but with no power or authority. In the pro game, Zou just could never stamp his authority on a match.

In the end, he had a few decent wins, but nothing over strong opponents. Just 11 matches into his career, he got knocked out and called it a career.

I don't know if Harimoto is working to make his game more authoritative in practice, but when the game starts he seems to revert back to his old 14-year old style.

 

[longrange]

I just enjoy the optimization problem. I see a 14 year old beating top senior names, and i think he should be the best ever. But his game hasnt kept pace.

Its not just the H3, its the shortening of points, pivoting to finish a point, playing more efficiently. Why hit 12 shots to win a point when you can win in 3?

> So to me, Harimoto has himself to blame. It doesnt seem like he's done enough to change his fh.

Oh dear
Sorry, Michael, the way you formulate is just... inappropriate?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Its not just the H3, its the shortening of points, pivoting to finish a point, playing more efficiently. Why hit 12 shots to win a point when you can win in 3?

Oh boy
The entire Chinese national team is useless then?

The final between FZD and WCQ, how many points went beyond 3 shots?
are they also non talented? or they play super non-efficiently?

 

[NextLevel]

> So to me, Harimoto has himself to blame. It doesnt seem like he's done enough to change his fh.

Oh dear
Sorry, Michael, the way you formulate is just... inappropriate?

Thanks for admitting the problem. Do you seriously agree with this?

 

[NextLevel]

Harimoto reminds me of Zou Shiming, the boxer. He won 2 Olympic gold medals and 3 World Championships as a amateur boxer. Then he turned pro and thought he would continue his success. He hired Freddie Roach, who trained Manny Pacquiao and many consider to be one of the greatest trainers of all time.

Roach saw that Zhou's amateur style would never work in the pro level, so he tried to evolve his style focusing on clean power punching, fundamental defense, and forward pressure. It looked good in the gym, but when the fight started, he would always revert back to his old amateur style. His amateur style involved a lot of "slapping" punches and quick combinations, but with no power or authority. In the pro game, Zou just could never stamp his authority on a match.

In the end, he had a few decent wins, but nothing over strong opponents. Just 11 matches into his career, he got knocked out and called it a career.

I don't know if Harimoto is working to make his game more authoritative in practice, but when the game starts he seems to revert back to his old 14-year old style.

You do realize that you are describing the #4 ranked player in the world, yes? The best non-Chinese player by some distance? Find some balance to reflect that you are describing the #4 ranked player in the world, and then we can have a respectful conversation about this.

 

[TensorBackhand]

You do realize that you are describing the #4 ranked player in the world, yes? The best non-Chinese player by some distance? Find some balance to reflect that you are describing the #4 ranked player in the world, and then we can have a respectful conversation about this.

Yes i do. So the question now is how to go from #4 to #1. Its much easier to go from #20 to #4 than to go from #4 to #1.

Some transformative training is needed

 

[NextLevel]

Yes i do. So the question now is how to go from #4 to #1. Its much easier to go from #20 to #4 than to go from #4 to #1.

Some transformative training is needed

Possibly, but you are not in the position to determine the need or the details or assess the realistic nature of the proposition, since you don't have a deep understanding of his style (in fact, not even him fully does). The guy who is is playing the matches and training everyday, and of course, will get told his forehand sucks every time he misses a forehand (without any regard for all the ones he makes or all the backhands he made that make the forehand not get used as much). Such is life.