A fun hypothetical situation to comment on...

[StuartMarquis]

I'm fascinated by the various table tennis styles and have been thinking recently about whether or not some styles are inherently superior to other's. Modern table tennis is obviously dominated at the highest levels by attacking/looping style players...but is this because of a "survival of the fittest" type scenario where the strongest style inevitably rises to the top, or is it simply indicative of style "trends" within the sport?

In trying to find the answers to this sort of question I came up with the following hypothetical scenario, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

Let's say that China has just got bored of being head and shoulders above every other country, and as such they decide to set themselves the challenge of developing a national team that is made up solely of classical and modern defenders. Given a couple of decades to recalibrate the training regimes and scouting processes, could a Chinese team of defenders still dominate the sport, or would they lose their spot on the podium due to an inherent inferiority of the defensive styles?

 

[ttmonster]

China can come up with such defenders but its not going to be at the same volume as they can produce attacking players. Attacking / Looping style has an inherent advantage over other styles , however when you come across somebody like JSH in his prime only the chinese were comfortable/confident that they can take them on and win and even after that it was not sure they could come out of the encounters unscathed physically .

However, point to note is that even JSH had to supplement his chops with strong loops on the forehand. Hence , pure defensive players won't win , but a mix yes, if he is as talented as JSH .

I'm fascinated by the various table tennis styles and have been thinking recently about whether or not some styles are inherently superior to other's. Modern table tennis is obviously dominated at the highest levels by attacking/looping style players...but is this because of a "survival of the fittest" type scenario where the strongest style inevitably rises to the top, or is it simply indicative of style "trends" within the sport?

In trying to find the answers to this sort of question I came up with the following hypothetical scenario, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

Let's say that China has just got bored of being head and shoulders above every other country, and as such they decide to set themselves the challenge of developing a national team that is made up solely of classical and modern defenders. Given a couple of decades to recalibrate the training regimes and scouting processes, could a Chinese team of defenders still dominate the sport, or would they lose their spot on the podium due to an inherent inferiority of the defensive styles?

 

[StuartMarquis]

So does that mean that a modern defensive style like that of JSH is the most superior style, all over variables being equal? That sort of makes sense when you think about it from the perspective of shot variety (where someone like JSH can loop but can also chop). So perhaps we could even ask if Ma Long would be an even better player than he currently is if he'd trained in the modern defense style of JSH?

 

[ttmonster]

No Stuart , thats not what I meant , where did I say JSH was the most superior style ? I said what you said is possible but difficult and I tried to give some reasons for that ...

So does that mean that a modern defensive style like that of JSH is the most superior style, all over variables being equal? That sort of makes sense when you think about it from the perspective of shot variety (where someone like JSH can loop but can also chop). So perhaps we could even ask if Ma Long would be an even better player than he currently is if he'd trained in the modern defense style of JSH?

 

[ajtatosmano2]

I think the next generation of defenders will use short pips. Long pips are vulnerable over the table. I mean top players, who are experienced against defenders can take a big advantage from that. Nowadays the number of defenders is small. If we would have a big number of defenders, attackers would be better against them also. JSH was beaten by lower ranked players just because they knew how to play against a defender. I mean by that they practised against defenders more than the top 10 players who have beaten by JSH.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I am going to give some comedy first. Then I will see if I am up for a real answer.

The video is comedy. But the fact that the ITTF has changed rules in a way that made it easier for modern looping offense and harder for defensive styles.

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[StuartMarquis]

TT monster, I didn't say that you said JSH style was superior...instead I asked the question as to whether it is (or potentially could be) superior, and I asked that question in light of your comment about JSH supplementing his defensive shots with strong loops (thereby having a wider variety of shots in his arsenal than an all out attacker).

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

If rule changes had not favored modern looping styles, it is hard to say what would happen.

But here is how I would look at things. I played a friend on Monday (Labor Day) whose level has really jumped in the last year. We used to be a pretty similar level and now I can feel he is way better than me even though I can still steal games from him here and there.

He is an offensive player but who is able to chop and lob. When we played, he mixed styles.

Sometimes he played offense. Sometimes he backed up and lobbed. Sometimes he slipped a few chops in there. It looked to me like he was having fun mixing it up. If he was pressured he may have gone to a more offensive style. On the money points, that is what he usually did.

So, from the perspective of fun, it really should be about what you like to do. From the perspective of defense, when the aspect ratio ban went into effect the current world champion was a pips player whose rubbers were all of a sudden banned!!!!!

There were many more defensive players before the rule changes than their are now. It is hard to say whether it is because knowledge of efficient topspin technique has improved or because of how much harder these rule changes have made it for defensive style players to compete. I do think there is some of both.

Right now I am thinking of how Waldner and Persson used to consistently get backed up and lob and how often they were able to then launch a counter attack and get back in the offensive mode. It is very rare you see that these days. If a player gets backed up and forced to lob, it is kind of like chopping down a tree. The top players usually keep the person back and don't mess up.


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[TT_Rogue]

that defense could be again more equal to attack it would need some adjustments for example. allow 2 black or 2 red rubbers. get rid of the grip-rules. that long pips can again be slippery and so on.. in my opinion it's not an unfair advantage when somebody is mastering these things. and im sure that then much more def players would be in the top of the world. the thing is that most of the spectators are dumb as ****. they dont understand whats going on why is that ball dropping to the net. is the attacking playing bad... less people will come to games/watch what means less money in the ittf pocket. so they prefer to support the fast more athletic stlye that also the half-retard football fan can watch table tennis when it's a commercial during the 4. league game in prime time on tv

 

[pingpongdingdong]

I don't think it's necessarily one thing or the other. Surely China's dominance can be attributed to their substantially high level of coaching, understanding and history within the sport, coupled with a myriad of talented players. This means that China will generally produce players that dominate the world rankings, but can this dominance also be attributed to the attacking style of play being fundamentally better?

I feel like the answer is yes. If the defensive style was better, I think we would see the Chinese National Team - along side many others - training choppers and lobbers, but that simply is not the case. That may not be the only reason though. The offensive style of play doesn't require all that much compared to the defensive style of play. You need good footwork, decent technical abilities, quick reaction time and a good serve and receive game if you're going to be an offensive player.

These pre-requisites are completely blown up in demand when becoming a defensive player. You simply need to have very good footwork to cover all of that space. You still need decent technical abilities and a good reaction time. However, a lot of the time, the defensive style renders the importance of serving somewhat useless; however not entirely. All I'm saying is that Ma Lin would get more free points off of serve than Joo Sae-hyuk. It can be very easy to score points against choppers when you have a strong serve when they are using pimples. They also need a LOT of stamina, and also need the offensive side covered as well.

Simply put, the defensive style is just harder to get good at. Lots of people are not made for this style, but would be great at attacking. You have to be very smart and technical to be a chopper. I'm not implying that all attacks are stupid or technically inept, but it ultimately comes down to the fact that being an attacker is inherently easier - and usually better - than being a defender.

I don't think that choppers are bad, or don't have potential to dominate the world stage, but we just have not seen that happen; albeit for good reason. Joo Sae-hyuk is an example of just how good a chopper can get, but even still he was never able to attain an olympic gold or world medal. Only time will tell if this style can last - and one day dominate the world ranks.

 

[countrybread]

I think the question might have been answered by the Chinese Women's Team. Wu Yang is arguably the best woman defender in the world. In fact, she has another defensive teammate, Hu Limei. Also an excellent player who had the good fortune to win a tournament. But the attacking teammates seem to have little trouble with them. They seem to be mostly bodyguards and practice partners to help form strategies and tactics against players such as Kim Song I and Seo Hyo Won. Perhaps their coaches think defenders, in general, have a ceiling.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Joo Sae-hyuk is an example of just how good a chopper can get, but even still he was never able to attain an olympic gold or world medal.

2003 WTTC Finals: Joo Se Hyuk = Silver Medal

2003 China Open finals, one of the best matches ever: Joo Se Hyuk Vs Kong Linghui (grand slam champion)

Watch and admire.


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[pingpongdingdong]

2003 WTTC Finals: Joo Se Hyuk = Silver Medal

2003 China Open finals, one of the best matches ever: Joo Se Hyuk Vs Kong Linghui (grand slam champion)

Watch and admire.


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I did mean a gold medal in either the Olympics or the World Championships, which he hasn't done. Not to discredit him at all, I think he is the epitome of a great chopper and has set the bar for what it takes to be a chopper and to compete at high level. I think he's one of the best choppers we have had in the history of the sport.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I did mean a gold medal in either the Olympics or the World Championships, which he hasn't done. Not to discredit him at all, I think he is the epitome of a great chopper and has set the bar for what it takes to be a chopper and to compete at high level. I think he's one of the best choppers we have had in the history of the sport.

Okay. Not winning the top spot is different than placing top three.

However, you could equally say: "Not being from China makes it very hard to win the top spot in the Olympics and WTTC. In fact in the last 10 years nobody has done it. Since the beginning of the current Century there is the 2003 WTTC and the 2004 Olympics that had a finals winners who were not from China.

And the last pips player who won WTTC and Olympic Gold is also FROM CNT.


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[Mikael Berglund]

Since the ball change from 38 to 40mm in the year 2000, the defensive players are in a big disadvantage, since good players can just loop through the spin. With the 40+ ball, the momentum have shifted even more towards the attacking players.

I'm curious about the return of short pips with the 40+ ball. Mattias Karlsson is playing quite well with short pips. I'd like to see a Chinese player use short pips. The ability to punch through spin and generate a low bounce could be lethal.