After how many layers of booster does it become detrimental?

[UpSideDownCarl]

Is experimenting with unathorized long pips a health hazard ?

Depends. I know some guys who played with adding chemicals to the pips to make them play differently.

But what makes you think the chemicals in those non-VOC boosters present a health hazard? Is baby oil a health hazard?

But I agree that, it is better to be up front about that stuff. Like, if you are playing to have fun and you are playing someone who thinks it is a tournament setting (even though it isn't) and the guy doesn't know you or what rubbers you are using, then making sure he/she knows is a good idea. I don't like to mess with my equipment. I use the rubbers I use because I don't want to mess around with doing anything but gluing the rubbers on and using them until it is time to change rubbers. But, I play with guys who like doing experiments, and I don't really think it is a big deal if you are not playing in sanctioned tournaments.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

JZ: Have you ever put your pips in a microwave oven?

 

[lodro]

1. VOC-free boosters may not be against common laws but they DEFINITELY violate the rules of table tennis Simply because everyone uses boosters & players claim it is approved does not make it ITTF approved. Any chemical modification of the rubber especially the sponge (using speed-glues & boosters) is aginst the rules.
2. ITTF performs spot testing only at higher levels PRIMARILY for the health hazard of boosters that contain VOC & not for VOC-free boosters. ITTF had been cleverly diverting the issue away from the REAL reason for chemical testing by claiming now that thickness gauges test for legality (of common laws). This is a fraud because thickness gauges cannot test for true violation of VOC content. They only simply check the sponge had been expanded by boosting with either VOC free or VOC-full boosters or speed- glues. Thickness gauges cannot test for VOC content but ITTF wants everyone to think it does & therefore they are testing for health code violations and violation of common laws.

Just because you Lodro, claim that noone uses VOC-ful speed-glues or boosters does not make it the truth. If ITTF can take Lodro’s word then there is no need for any chemical testing at all . For example in countries where players cannot afford boosters what boosters do you think they use ? Of course they use the best VOC filled boosters. It is a well known secret that the more carcinogenic a speed-glue or booster is, the better your rubber performs

you must have been sniffing too much of the stuff yourself because it does affect the brain you know 🤣
The good old speed glue can not be used in serious tournaments anymore because they have to be glued immediately prior to the event to
give their best performance AND that of course means it can be easily found out by the electronic sniffer.

As for the other boosters, the ones that can not be "sniffed out", ITTF should never have bothered banning them.

I use a little bit of seamoon because it allows me to buy some cheap chinese rubbers and "adapt them" for
my needs.
Never in my life will there be any intervention from ITTF at the level I play.

As for your circus-performance of COMMON LAW , I ask you again to state a court decision that punished anybody , anywhere in the world
for boosting their rubbers with voc-free booster..............and if you can't................................well......you know where you can stick your common laws

 

[LHDuy]

I mean lots of players being sponsored have their own tuning sponge directly from the brand. Don't u think that they play just normal equipment like us? Sponge from the factory is already factory-tuning, make it more suitable for the players playstyle and not violate any measurement of chemical hazard is ok, i think.

 

[Der_Echte]

... no matter what is I think I see, becomes a Tootsie Roll to me.

 

[James Z]

you must have been sniffing too much of the stuff yourself because it does affect the brain you know 🤣

As I explain below the second hand effect of glue sniffing are indeed a concern of ITTF
I greatly appreciate your highlighting that

The good old speed glue can not be used in serious tournaments anymore because they have to be glued immediately prior to the event to
give their best performance AND that of course means it can be easily found out by the electronic sniffer.

At what level are these speed glues sniffed at with elctronic equipment ? At all levels ? Again juat because you keep claiming that NOBODY is speed gluing (or boosting) with VOCful chemicals does not make it any more true.
Also are they testing for any speed glues & boosters (with or without VOC) at lower levels ? Or do I just take your word for it ?

As for the other boosters, the ones that can not be "sniffed out", ITTF should never have bothered banning them.

So what you are saying is that ITTF should not have banned boosters with VOC even though by your own admission, they are a health hazard ?
Or do you want to continue with your nonsensical claim that NOBODY is using boosters with VOCs ?

I use a little bit of seamoon because it allows me to buy some cheap chinese rubbers and "adapt them" for
my needs.

Obviously you have not clearly & fully understood why ITTF banned speed gluing & boosting
According to ITTF's original intent in 1995 it is not just your own health that they are concerned about (first hand effects)
They supposedly are equally concerned about the second hand effects on health of your family members, other playerrs, officials & spectators.

Of course ITTF now wants you & everyone to forget all this. ITTF now wants everyone (especially IOC) to think that speed-gluing & boosting just a perfomance issue and health issues have magically disappeared just because they do spot testing at higher events therefore no testing other than thickness measurement is needed at lowere levels. However they still continue to perform spot chemical testing for VOCs as well at higher levels. Why. ?

The problem with you is that you don't know the full history of speed gluing & boosting since 1995 or partially know the reaosn but are very upset because you have been engaging in illegal acts of boosting and want to explain it away & are in denial & according to ITTF you are endangering the health of your family, other players & spectataors. If it makes you very angry ay me that what I am iust repeating what ITTF is saying, your anger is misplaced. Don't shoot the messenger.

As for your circus-performance of COMMON LAW , I ask you again to state a court decision that punished anybody , anywhere in the world
for boosting their rubbers with voc-free booster..............and if you can't................................well......you know where you can stick your common laws

I have expained clearly in another post with examples of how violation of ITTF health rules also definitely violate local health codes , state, national & international laws But feel free to ignore & go in circles again

 

[Zwill]

I wish smoking was banned too. It is a well proven health hazard, I would wager smoking is more harmful than VOC free boosters. It should be banned by ITTF since you can smell it on the person if he/she is a smoker. That sounds like a health risk on others too.
Hell, smoking should be the 8th deadly sin if we wanna push it a but further.

 

[James Z]

JZ: Have you ever put your pips in a microwave oven?

Absolutely NOT.
I am against chemically treating pips as well

BTW the microwaving of pips (specifically TSP P1 Curl & few Dr.Neubauer rubbers) was the excuse used by ITTF for passing the 1998 Durban Apsect Ratio Reduction Massacre. But the fact of the matter is that no top player I know of used TSP P1 Curl ( before 1998...........I repeat before 1998) . Just about 100% of them at pro & top amateur levels used Feint Long Classic & they definitely did NOT use Feint Long Classic because they thought they can fool the likes of Kong Linghui & Waldner etc but because Feint Long Classic was the least unpredictable (meaning most controllable) rubber available for chopping.
ITTF knew all this but the ywent ahead anyway because the REAL reason for the 1998 Durban Apsect Ratio Reduction Massacre. was 100% political & 0% technical especially given that rubbers just as unpredictable as P1 Curl such as Phantom 007 & Double Fish 1615 etc remained or remain legal as of today.
Yet there were some USATT officials who are well know for using the other lame excuse also used by iTTF for the 1998 Durban Apsect Ratio Reduction Massacre. They said it would bring back millions of juniors who left the sport because they left the sport because of Microwaved P1 Curl (but yet as if Yasaka Phantom 007 or Double Fish 1615 which remained legal would not bother the juniors LOL)

Another thing. The booster supremacists controlled ITTF always makes big deal of players treating pips. I am not saying there are not players who treat pips but the ratio of speed-glue & booster cheats ito pips treating cheats s like 500 to 1 if not 1000 to 1. But all you hear about is pips treat cheats only beacause the booster supremacists & two-wing extremists far outnumber pips cheats in table tennis.

Again, I ask you, did ITTF say that microwaving the pips a health hazard (like speed gluing & boosting) ? Of course not
Speed gluing & boosting are PRIMARILY serious health hazards & only secondarily performance issues. (but ITTF wants you to forget all this)
Microwaving the pips is NOT a health issue

 

[James Z]

I wish smoking was banned too. It is a well proven health hazard, I would wager smoking is more harmful than VOC free boosters. It should be banned by ITTF since you can smell it on the person if he/she is a smoker. That sounds like a health risk on others too.
Hell, smoking should be the 8th deadly sin if we wanna push it a but further.

What you wish is not the issue. What is, is, is the issue.
I am just stating what ITTF has laways maintained. ITTF is PRIMARILY a health issue

Also as far as smoking goes why are they banned in some public places ?
Is it because of the first hand effects on the smokers themselves ? Of course not.

Most TT players do not understand or want to pre5end like they don't or do not want others to unsdersatnd the ITTF's original stated reason for bans on speed-glues in 1995 (carried over to 2008 ban on boosters) > It is not just first hand effect on the player who is te hevildoer but just as much as the second hand effects on other players, their families as well as specttaors.. just as the case with ban on smoking in public places

Why were cigarette manufacturer banned from advertising on TV ? Why do they place statements on their cartons stating it is a serious health hazard ?
They do not care about your health. They just want to reduce their legal liabilities though hundreds of smokers have been winning billions in lawsuits aganst tobacco companies.
Same with ITTF . Performing some fake tests with thickness gauges and sport testing only at higher levels does not absolve ITTF of any liability.& they can still be sued though I always recommend suing the IOC because that is where the money is (IOC knows full well since 2000 as to what is going on with ITTF but still refuse to expel tabletennis from Olympics)

Oh BTW I also think guns are barbaric primitive weapons & should be phased out of earth. In USA the constitution gives right to bear arms but I don't think it says they have to be lethal weapons. Police should be able to shoot early and often............but with non-lethal smart weapons & not with primitive weapons like guns just to avoid legal liabilities

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Absolutely NOT.
I am against chemically treating pips as well

BTW the microwaving of pips (specifically TSP P1 Curl & few Dr.Neubauer rubbers) was the excuse used by ITTF for passing the 1998 Durban Apsect Ratio Reduction Massacre. But the fact of the matter is that no top player I know of used TSP P1 Curl ( before 1998...........I repeat before 1998) . Just about 100% of them at pro & top amateur levels used Feint Long Classic & they definitely did NOT use Feint Long Classic because they thought they can fool the likes of Kong Linghui & Waldner etc but because Feint Long Classic was the least unpredictable (meaning most controllable) rubber available for chopping.
ITTF knew all this but the ywent ahead anyway because the REAL reason for the 1998 Durban Apsect Ratio Reduction Massacre. was 100% political & 0% technical especially given that rubbers just as unpredictable as P1 Curl such as Phantom 007 & Double Fish 1615 etc remained or remain legal as of today.
Yet there were some USATT officials who are well know for using the other lame excuse also used by iTTF for the 1998 Durban Apsect Ratio Reduction Massacre. They said it would bring back millions of juniors who left the sport because they left the sport because of Microwaved P1 Curl (but yet as if Yasaka Phantom 007 or Double Fish 1615 which remained legal would not bother the juniors LOL)

Another thing. The booster supremacists controlled ITTF always makes big deal of players treating pips. I am not saying there are not players who treat pips but the ratio of speed-glue & booster cheats ito pips treating cheats s like 500 to 1 if not 1000 to 1. But all you hear about is pips treat cheats only beacaus eteh booster supremacists & two-wing extremists far outnumber pips cheats in table tennis.

Again, I ask you, did ITTF say that microwaving the pips a health hazard (like speed gluing & boosting) ? Of course not
Speed gluing & boosting are PRIMARILY serious health hazards & secondarily permormance issues. (but ITTF wants you to forget all this)
Microwaving the pips is NOT a health issue

Well, with the microwave thing, I was just joking around. But, there are plenty of people who do strange things.

 

[lodro]

I have expained clearly in another post with examples of how violation of ITTF health rules also definitely violate local health codes , state, national & international laws But feel free to ignore & go in circles again

NEGATIVE you have not explained or proved anything.
You are just waffling on, repeating what are either you own fantasies or fantasies that you read somewhere.

 

[brokenball]

Whether or not boosting is a scam is a moot point because (according to ITTF, not me), boosting & speed-gluing are ilegal under common law (focused countries) & under civil law (focused countries)

Ok, but you and others still seem to be obsessed with what hits the ball, whether the ball is boosted or hit with funny long pips etc.
I can assure you that after the ball leaves the paddle, it doesn't care what hit it. The ball has a speed and spin and this speed and spin can be duplicated with many different combinations of blades and coverings. It is all in your head.

One of my most memorable nights of TT is when I was playing against a person using illegal pips for chopping. It was actually very fun. I wouldn't have minded if it was a real match. The ball came back at a reasonable speed with a fair amount of back spin. It is really the skill of the player and how consistently he can use his equipment.

I simply think the young kids are being scammed in to thinking this magic potion is going to help the game. It won't.

@jamez, what spin or speed can pip or anti generate that a normal rubber can't?

 

[James Z]

@jamez, what spin or speed can pip or anti generate that a normal rubber can't?

Thanks for asking. I would gladly address this issue but before I proceed,
1. Can you please explain to me what a "normal" rubber is please ?
2. What do you mean by spin 'generation" & should that be the ONLY aspect of table-tennis ?

 

[James Z]

NEGATIVE you have not explained or proved anything.
You are just waffling on, repeating what are either you own fantasies or fantasies that you read somewhere.

Oh yeah I am the one with fantasies

Hey at least I do not have the delusions that
1. Speed glues & boosters are no longer a health issue
2. ITTF is testing ONLY for VOC free boosters.
3. Thickness gauges are used at all levels of the sport.
4. Not a single player at any level uses speed glues or boosters with VOC content
5. Chmnical inspection is not needed at lower levels of the sport (because health of low level players is NOT as important as pros)

 

[Der_Echte]

Anyone figure out how many tootsie rolls of licks on that tootsie roll pop get to that threshold?

 

[lodro]

Anyone figure out how many tootsie rolls of licks on that tootsie roll pop get to that threshold?

I am already over 70, I lick whatever i want and as much as i want 😂

 

[brokenball]

Thanks for asking. I would gladly address this issue but before I proceed,
1. Can you please explain toem waht a "normal" rubber is please ?

Pick any from old Mark V to dignics.

2. What do you mean by spin 'geenration" & shouldthat be the ONLY aspect of table-tennis ?

No, I am not that inflexible. Every shot has an optimal spin and speed to land the ball at a particular spot on the table.

There is a recent video posted by Der Echte where the coach is basically saying one size fits all. This is BS. Even today I looped a ball, that was hit wide to my right. I dropped below the table. I looped it. This requires more spin than speed. There is a right ratio of spin and speed for every shot. I can prove this but it would take some effort. Also, the optimal spin and speed varies depending on the skill level of the player. The reason is that it is optimal to just clear the net but the problem is that people are not perfect, not even the pros. If they just want to clear the net there will be times when they hit the net. A normal person would hit the net even more because he isn't as consistent. A normal person must be more conservative or too many balls will hit the net or go long.

 

[brokenball]

Spinny inverted rubbers (that you incorrectly refer to as "normal" rubbers) can "generate on their own" more spin than other 5 types (anti, short, medium, long & super long pips).
However only medium, long & super long pips are capable of what I call spin "amplification". (similar to what an electronic amplifier's transfer function amplifying small input amplitude of radio signals to much higher value ) They retain the incoming top spins by the pips bending and they retain this energy & amplify it due to very long dwell time of the ball on the racket when the players chops the ball.

Wow! you have found the answer to the world's energy needs.!
Now how do pips AMPLIFY spin? Where does this energy come from?

The amount of spin amplification depends on whole bunch of design parameters such as pip flexibilty, material of the pips, the aspect ratio, pip distribution density, the design of the top & side of the pips such as whether the top and sides are slippery & smooth or rough etc.

So it doesn't depend on the LPs player's stroke?

BS! The rest of your argument is BS. Rubbers absorb energy. They don't generate energy. If they did we could solve the worlds energy problems.

Does anybody else want to agree with James Z? I, the forum, wants to know where this extras energy comes from?

The problem with this forum is that it consists of a lot of uneducated people with only opinions that they repeat from other uneducated people. Dan and USDC don't seem to want to do anything about that. Yet, USDC knows I am the real deal.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The moment we have been waiting for

 

[brokenball]

Do you think Dan & USDC should institute some minimum requirements of formal education & IQ to post in this forum ? That would prevent stupid people like me from posting.

They are not qualified. It seems do me that all they want is for people to post anything even if it is false. The goal is to get traffic for advertisements. Truth doesn't matter.

Another problem is that I have been banned before because I said someone was an idiot because they didn't understand how acceleration creates force. or someone doesn't really know about dwell time. There is no freedom of speech on this forum. I can ask simple questions about dwell time that no one can answer. I say that because I have seen no evidence of real engineers or physicist here. I didn't find any on mytt either although I know that a few claimed to have PhD degrees.

I can make a good case that equipment doesn't have control. USDC KNOWs I have the equipment to test rubbers and blades in a way that the TT manufacturers won't or can't.

A problem I have is that this forum has no sticky posts so anything I post will get lost once it goes off the front page.

So if you really want to know who I am then do a google search for "peter nachtwey motion control.
Then search for peter Nachtwey testing. Then do a search for peter Nachtwey control theory.

I can go on and on.

Yet on mytt I was accused of having D-K disease. I was interviewed by the IEEE.org in 2006. Yes, I stuck a finger in the eye of many old time engineers/control people but showed I can compute everything to the vice president of the IEEE.org. That is why I was interviewed.

In 2020 I was inducted into the International Fluid Power Hall of Fame for my work on hydraulic control theory. I don really think of myself as being limited to the hydraulic fluid control since I know how to control many types of applications.

Note, I was NOT taught any of this. There were no classes on this 20+ years ago. I figured out everything on my own. Why is this so hard to believe? There are many great thinkers of the past that I admire that figured out the basics. I stand on their shoulders.

The problem with TT forums is that they are woefully ignorant of physics. There is too much talk about equipment and not about being physically fit and correct technique. I am almost 70 now. I know the correct technique, it is just difficult to execute it now