Anybody know the exact ESN hardness for DHS 38-41?

[TensorBackhand]

I kinda approximate:

DHS 38 = ESN 50
39 = 52
40 = 54
41 = 56
42 = 58?

I don't think that this is exactly correct though. Anybody know the exact degrees?
I know ESN has some rubbers that are 57.5 and even 60. Are these harder than anything DHS has?

 

[igorponger]

I kinda approximate:

DHS 38 = ESN 50
39 = 52
40 = 54
41 = 56
42 = 58?

I don't think that this is exactly correct though. Anybody know the exact degrees?
I know ESN has some rubbers that are 57.5 and even 60. Are these harder than anything DHS has?

Why not to do the test by yourself? It will cost you some 25 usd altogether. Be sure you get Shore O scale.

 

[turbozed]

Here's a useful graphic:

 

[TensorBackhand]

Here's a useful graphic:

I've seen this kind of graphic before, but somehow it doesn't seem quite right to me. So, DHS would be Shore A and ESN would be Shore O, correct?

So, Donic Bluegrip C1 is said to be a 60d sponge. According to the graphic, that would be 50d on DHS scale. DHS only goes up to 42 I believe, so 50 is just insane.

 

[turbozed]

I've seen this kind of graphic before, but somehow it doesn't seem quite right to me. So, DHS would be Shore A and ESN would be Shore O, correct?

So, Donic Bluegrip C1 is said to be a 60d sponge. According to the graphic, that would be 50d on DHS scale. DHS only goes up to 42 I believe, so 50 is just insane.

I think the issue there lies with the manufacturer ratings and not the scale itself. I dont trust manufacturer ratings very much, and ESN are particularly wildly off. My Fastarc C-1 was supposed to be 45d but turns out it's more like 39d in durometer tests.

These guys used a durometer test of Donic Bluegrip C1 and found it to be 35d on Shore A. So it's around 48d ESN.

Note that they are using the durometer on the tospheet so it's combining the hardness of the entire rubber and not just the sponge. I would tend to care more about the hardness of a rubber as whole since we play with both pars.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I think the issue there lies with the manufacturer ratings and not the scale itself. I dont trust manufacturer ratings very much, and ESN are particularly wildly off. My Fastarc C-1 was supposed to be 45d but turns out it's more like 39d in durometer tests.

These guys used a durometer test of Donic Bluegrip C1 and found it to be 35d on Shore A. So it's around 48d ESN.

How can that be? C1 is supposed to be one of the hardest esn rubbers

 

[turbozed]

How can that be? C1 is supposed to be one of the hardest esn rubbers

I don't know tbh. You'd have to ask someone that has played C1 and H3 for a comparison. I'm inclined to think that C1 is nowhere near as hard as its rating because these guys' durometer tests have been reliable in my experience.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

I've always been curious too. I've used the donic 1 series: S1, M1 and now Z1 and these are always marketed as 47.5 degree hardness. If by Tensorbackhand gueestimate, it would be around 35 degree in DHS scale and these are classified as hard in the ESN scale of things. Go figure...

 

[IB66]

Turbozed is on the right track, it is likely that the manufacturers stated sponge hardness is for THE SPONGE ONLY, however it may not be the case!!!
The 'hardness' ratings could be measured for sponge ONLY, top sheet ONLY and then a COMBINED value. But this is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to happen, unless it was a stipulation / rule for registering the rubber on the LARC, ITTF would also have to stipulate which hardness scale will be used ACROSS THE BOARD.

At present, the confusion is what the companies like!!! nothing has been 'standardised' which means people tend to buy loads of rubbers to find the 'perfect' one.

 

[latej]

I don't think that this is exactly correct though. Anybody know the exact degrees?
I know ESN has some rubbers that are 57.5 and even 60. Are these harder than anything DHS has?

Michael, you of all people should get the Shore O durometer like igor suggested. You like to test rubbers, you've tested more rubbers than most of us...

Btw. the declared hardness of the Victas TDE (57,5) seems to match the reality much better than in the case of Bluegrips. I measured 57 on a new sheet, then later after 1 layer of booster (only to straighten it) and 2 layers of Revo3, measured on a cut corner it says 54 - a good match for the DHS H41 hardness - for which I search the substitute.

P.S. Someone somewhere posted this table, I think it was zeio.

EDIT: I had these words and melody in my head: "what you're waiting for". Then searched and so much bullshit appeared, when in reality ONLY ONE song should have appeared right away ;-). So, ... (And if it doesn't work, blame it on me (or better yet, on Igor))

 

[igorponger]

None expert talks, sorry.

 

[turbozed]

Michael, you of all people should get the Shore O durometer like igor suggested. You like to test rubbers, you've tested more rubbers than most of us...

Btw. the declared hardness of the Victas TDE (57,5) seems to match the reality much better than in the case of Bluegrips. I measured 57 on a new sheet, then later after 1 layer of booster (only to straighten it) and 2 layers of Revo3, measured on a cut corner it says 54 - a good match for the DHS H41 hardness - for which I search the substitute.

P.S. Someone somewhere posted this table, I think it was zeio.

EDIT: I had these words and melody in my head: "what you're waiting for". Then searched and so much bullshit appeared, when in reality ONLY ONE song should have appeared right away ;-). So, ... (And if it doesn't work, blame it on me (or better yet, on Igor))

You know what. I think I'll go ahead and buy a durometer too. It's only $15 off of aliexpress or $24 on Amazon (the one that says "X. F" on the dial). It's a small price to pay to satiate curiosity.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I think it may be the case that even when ESN is rated 57 or 60, the sponge may be harder than DHS 41d, but the overall rubber is not necessarily harder.

But I don't know if the Durometer really works if one side is a different hardness from the other side they are measuring at the same time.

 

[turbozed]

I think it may be the case that even when ESN is rated 57 or 60, the sponge may be harder than DHS 41d, but the overall rubber is not necessarily harder.

But I don't know if the Durometer really works if one side is a different hardness from the other side they are measuring at the same time.

Give me 3 to 5 weeks and I'll let you know what I find out after I've played around with the durometer.

I'll test the topsheet and sponge combo. And I have some cut-up bits from old rubber saved so maybe I'll try separating the two and see what they measure at individually.

I think you're right that the durometer would probably just measure the topsheet if it's softer than the actual sponge.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Give me 3 to 5 weeks and I'll let you know what I find out after I've played around with the durometer.

I'll test the topsheet and sponge combo. And I have some cut-up bits from old rubber saved so maybe I'll try separating the two and see what they measure at individually.

I think you're right that the durometer would probably just measure the topsheet if it's softer than the actual sponge.

Sounds like a good experiment. Look forward to seeing your results.

Does the durometer report in the esn scale? Or can you choose what it reports in

 

[turbozed]

Sounds like a good experiment. Look forward to seeing your results.

Does the durometer report in the esn scale? Or can you choose what it reports in

You can buy a Shore A or Shore O. Shore A is more similar to DHS scale and Shore O is ESN scale.

I bought the Shore O because probably it likely has fidelity (range of use going to be 40 to 55 instead of just 29 to 40 or so). The measuring pin of the Shore O durometer is also better suited to measuring the sponge apparently.

 

[TensorBackhand]

You can buy a Shore A or Shore O. Shore A is more similar to DHS scale and Shore O is ESN scale.

I bought the Shore O because probably it likely has fidelity (range of use going to be 40 to 55 instead of just 29 to 40 or so). The measuring pin of the Shore O durometer is also better suited to measuring the sponge apparently.

Can you link the one you bought?

Can you try to measure the sponge only of DHS 39-41 to see what ESN scale it shows?

 

[latej]

Can you link the one you bought?

Can you try to measure the sponge only of DHS 39-41 to see what ESN scale it shows?

This is the one I took. The O Type (there are 3).

It says 54 on my H3 Prov BS H41, don't have H39 and H40. For H3 Prov H37 and for H8-80 H37 I measure 47, pretty much as expected.

Edit: Obviously the top-sheet will have some role too, so will booster and glue. No need to have some extra expectations... I heard people say it has little value, as if they expected it could have "more" value. This is what I can't follow. It measures what it measures. Only false expectations make you disappointed ;-)

 

[TensorBackhand]

This is the one I took. The O Type (there are 3).

It says 54 on my H3 Prov BS H41, don't have H39 and H40. For H3 Prov H37 and for H8-80 H37 I measure 47, pretty much as expected.

Edit: Obviously the top-sheet will have some role too, so will booster and glue. No need to have some extra expectations... I heard people say it has little value, as if they expected it could have "more" value. This is what I can't follow. It measures what it measures. Only false expectations make you disappointed ;-)

Did you measure the whole rubber or just the sponge?

 

[latej]

Did you measure the whole rubber or just the sponge?

The sponge. I never measure anything else.