Armature FH stroke difference between Tacky and Non tacky rubbers

[J Bus]

Hi Folks,

Just wondering on everyone's options about FH stroke differences when using tacky vs non tacky rubbers?
Is the stroke plane a more extreme difference between going up with tacky rubbers as opposed to going more forward with your average non tacky rubbers?

Or can you get away with only slightly tweaking a stroke and swap from a non tacky generic ESN rubber to a H3 Neo for example? Or perhaps the stroke transition is very extreme and the commitment to swap to a decently tacky rubber (not Dignics 05c) from a generic non tacky is difficult?

What do you all think?

 

[J Bus]

Feel free to delete If bumping isn't allowed but I'm pretty curious about this topic. Does anyone that has swapped from tacky to non tacky or, the other way have any insight?

 

[blahness]

My FH stroke is mostly the same regardless of whether I use tacky or non tacky rubbers - and sometimes I do twiddle around to use my BH rubber (D05). The only thing I adjust is that I have to give more force to hit the ball harder with tacky rubbers compared to nontacky rubbers. This feels more comfortable for me because I can use a much more perpendicular angle in general without worrying that it will fly out of the table easily.

 

[tackyfh]

Feel free to delete If bumping isn't allowed but I'm pretty curious about this topic. Does anyone that has swapped from tacky to non tacky or, the other way have any insight?

From my experience, playing with tacky rubbers requires you to go through the ball (hit forward) more to exert force while doing the same with tensors cause the ball to fly out. Thus I often see more upward motion from tensor rubber player than those with tacky rubber

 

[turbozed]

Here are two videos that I've found recently that describe the difference between FH drive form between tacky Chinese rubbers versus tension rubbers. They are both in Japanese but you can switch on subtitles or just watch how they hit with tacky rubber style versus tension rubber style. '

This first coach says you need to have a 'car-crash' like effect with the tacky rubbers to get the most out of it. Beginners or female players may not be able to generate this sort of force so they will play a brushing stroke instead (#1 beginner level in his demonstration). The advanced FH technique requires hitting through the ball more and then applying the spin while the hard sponge is compressed. The more directly you can hit through the ball, and the later you can apply the spin, the more powerful the shot (#4 advanced level).

This coach uses a different phrase in Japanese that roughly translates to "make the ball bite into the rubber" Here he's hitting with the tensor style FH which is the upwards salute motion for a bit, and then switches to the more Chinese FH which starts around 3:20 mark. The stroke is more forward and the tempo is different where there's more longer "loading up" phase and a shorter release of energy. He says that with tension rubbers, the ball will not 'bite' into the rubber and just fly off.

 

[turbozed]

Following up with the above post about tension style (テンション系) rubber FH and Chinese sticky (中国粘着) rubber FH. Or I guess we can simplify it to "Euro style" and "Chinese style."

Here's a video of me alternating between the two styles of FHs. Turn up the volume and you'll hear the difference in sound between the two.

The first two are Euro style FHs where the salute goes vertical. You can hear a duller clicking sound.

The next two are Chinese style FHs where I'm hitting through the ball more and the racket head ends up more forwards. You can hear a louder and sharper pop as the stroke 'crushes' or 'bites into' the rubber.

The next one is a Euro style FH and finally the finisher is a Chinese style FH where I use max effort and go across my body with the stroke.

I'm aware that my form is far from ideal and I'm throwing my shoulder forwards on some strokes when I shouldn't be. But I've only been working on this form for a few weeks and I notice more and more of the loud popping sounds coming from my racket, and that's a good sign I'm adjusting. Ideally I want to be able to switch between the two FHs in order to change up pace for my opponent.

Also, shout out to @JJ Ng if you'd like to continue the discussion on FH here instead of the recovery thread.

 

[NextLevel]

Following up with the above post about tension style (テンション系) rubber FH and Chinese sticky (中国粘着) rubber FH. Or I guess we can simplify it to "Euro style" and "Chinese style."

Here's a video of me alternating between the two styles of FHs. Turn up the volume and you'll hear the difference in sound between the two.

The first two are Euro style FHs where the salute goes vertical. You can hear a duller clicking sound.

The next two are Chinese style FHs where I'm hitting through the ball more and the racket head ends up more forwards. You can hear a louder and sharper pop as the stroke 'crushes' or 'bites into' the rubber.

The next one is a Euro style FH and finally the finisher is a Chinese style FH where I use max effort and go across my body with the stroke.

I'm aware that my form is far from ideal and I'm throwing my shoulder forwards on some strokes when I shouldn't be. But I've only been working on this form for a few weeks and I notice more and more of the loud popping sounds coming from my racket, and that's a good sign I'm adjusting. Ideally I want to be able to switch between the two FHs in order to change up pace for my opponent.

Also, shout out to @JJ Ng if you'd like to continue the discussion on FH here instead of the recovery thread.

I would argue that the first two are taking the ball later and the next two are taking the ball earlier and the last two are probably not the optimal way of taking the ball earlier and the first two are arguably not the optimal way of taking the ball later. I think you have gone down a rabbit hole with this Chinese vs European forehand thing that hopefully will get you to a good place. The main thing that the Chinese do well is play full body strokes, which involve a stronger use of the overall body, especially the legs and to a lesser degree the upper arm. The snapping of the forearm is not a Chinese or European thing, that is about adjusting to the ball and timing given what the equipment allows you to do with the incoming ball.

When I Say that your strokes are not optimal, you change your hitting zone for your "Chinese forehands" without moving your body to change the hitting zone. You could play a similar stroke to what you think is the "Euro Stroke" but salute with your body (and torso) leaning over the ball.

 

[blahness]

Would like to add some comments. A lot of the times we look at the pros racket movement and swing path and how the arm looks, but often neglect the role of the body. The biggest misconception is the role of the arm. Imo the arm movement difference between Euro and Chinese FH is not necessarily an arm movement difference but a difference in the degree of weight transfer and body rotation.

Imo arm backswing should be avoided as much as possible. The more the stroke comes from the body the better.

 

[NextLevel]

Would like to add some comments. A lot of the times we look at the pros racket movement and swing path and how the arm looks, but often neglect the role of the body. The biggest misconception is the role of arm backswing. Imo the arm movement difference between Euro and Chinese FH is not necessarily an arm movement difference but a difference in the degree of weight transfer and body rotation.

Imo arm backswing should be avoided as much as possible. The more the stroke comes from the body the better.

Yes, this is a far better way of saying what I Was getting at - the backswing is driven by use of the legs to lunge and fold the torso. Not by taking the arm backwards or forwards per se (there is some of that for very little additional power, but it isn't the core of the stroke).

 

[blahness]

Yes, this is a far better way of saying what I Was getting at - the backswing is driven by use of the legs to lunge and fold the torso. Not by taking the arm backwards or forwards per se (there is some of that for very little additional power, but it isn't the core of the stroke).

Yep, and the reason why CNT and the Korean national team gets a lot more FH power, is that they simply have a greater amount of body rotation and go deeper/lower in their lunge position during the backswing and thus store more lower body energy, and thus create a more powerful stroke. I don't think the arm movement is that different other than the degree of straightening and closing of the forearm.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Haiyah! Niece & nephew, why you make life difficult using hard tacky chinese rubber. You have to use so much energy and booster which is bad for health also. Haiyah! Got ESN bouncy rubber make your ball go fast fast fuiyoh!

Niece & nephew not professional player, play for fun why torture self? Haiyah!

 

[NextLevel]

View attachment 25456
Haiyah! Niece & nephew, why you make life difficult using hard tacky chinese rubber. You have to use so much energy and booster which is bad for health also. Haiyah! Got ESN bouncy rubber make your ball go fast fast fuiyoh!

Niece & nephew not professional player, play for fun why torture self? Haiyah!

Because with tacky rubber, you can sometimes hit one spin shot with so much power the point ends. That is torture for the opponent.

 

[blahness]

If we notice the degree of rotation of the shoulders and the level of knee bend and hip bend, the CNT FH has a few characteristics.

At the max backswing position, the shoulder is about 90 deg to the ball and the body is roughly leaning about 30 degs - to achieve this involves both bending at the hips and the knees are important. You can see Fan Zhendong prefers bending less at the hips and more at the knees, Ma Long does the opposite.

This is not an easy position to be in repeatedly, it requires really good athleticism which I think is not for everyone.

Compare it with say Koki Niwa with one of the lazier strokes he barely has any hip or knee bend in his lunge - which is why the power stored is much less. Furthermore he doesn't utilise the straightening of the arm either.

 

[NextLevel]

Feel free to delete If bumping isn't allowed but I'm pretty curious about this topic. Does anyone that has swapped from tacky to non tacky or, the other way have any insight?

I've gone back and forth between tacky and non-tacky. The advanced rubbers all do the same thing, the question is what feels linear to you and what table distances you are comfortable playing at. Tack slows the ball release down, so it works against rubber elasticity at lower swing speeds. Therefore, you will get more spin at lower swing impacts with a tensor or with Tenergy than you would with a tacky rubber. You also get a boost in speed from non-tacky rubber all things being equal because there is a quick release of the ball.

Where the tackiness helps is that you don't release the ball as quickly with physical strokes, so it encourages a thicker impact on all strokes relative to non-sticky rubber and this tackiness might help with an athletic player who is able to consistently swing harder to put more power on the ball and still get spin. But it could also help with someone who just needs more control or who needs more time. But at a higher level, tackiness helps stop the ball from spinning so you can impart your own spin. So you feel more confidence counterlooping heavy spin balls by taking them earlier, while with a less tacky rubber, you might need the ball to lose more energy before you feel confident attacking it.

Most tacky rubbers come with harder sponges, but the ones with softer sponges make it clearer what is going on.

Ultimately, the mind-body-blade connection is for each individual to determine. People can play at a very high level with almost anything. I do feel that training with tacky rubber helps understand how the turning effect of your stroke generates spin. It also helps you learn how to impact the ball with a depth of contact that most people don't find intuitive. After you learn that impact depth, you have a wider range of swing speeds and ball contacts to apply to the ball, even if you don't use them all.

 

[turbozed]

I would argue that the first two are taking the ball later and the next two are taking the ball earlier and the last two are probably not the optimal way of taking the ball earlier and the first two are arguably not the optimal way of taking the ball later. I think you have gone down a rabbit hole with this Chinese vs European forehand thing that hopefully will get you to a good place. The main thing that the Chinese do well is play full body strokes, which involve a stronger use of the overall body, especially the legs and to a lesser degree the upper arm. The snapping of the forearm is not a Chinese or European thing, that is about adjusting to the ball and timing given what the equipment allows you to do with the incoming ball.

When I Say that your strokes are not optimal, you change your hitting zone for your "Chinese forehands" without moving your body to change the hitting zone. You could play a similar stroke to what you think is the "Euro Stroke" but salute with your body (and torso) leaning over the ball.

Thanks for the feedback. I was hoping to get some advice since, even though this new FH style feels more powerful, it doesn't feel all too comfortable.

I understand taking the ball a bit later, but can explain again the saluting with my body part and leaning over the ball? In my mind, taking the ball too early and throwing my shoulder forward is causing me to be too much over the ball. Maybe you're referring to being over ball in a lateral plane to the table rather than forward over the table (as the ball will be deeper in the hitting zone if I take it later)?

Also should I ignore what both of the coaches explain as the proper brush motion for the tacky rubber? Both spend time talking about the exact same motion and explaining that it's important facet of the stroke. Are you saying that this is not an actual phenomenon or just that it's not something to worry about right now?

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks for the feedback. I was hoping to get some advice since, even though this new FH style feels more powerful, it doesn't feel all too comfortable.

I understand taking the ball a bit later, but can explain again the saluting with my body part and leaning over the ball? In my mind, taking the ball too early and throwing my shoulder forward is causing me to be too much over the ball. Maybe you're referring to being over ball in a lateral plane to the table rather than forward over the table (as the ball will be deeper in the hitting zone if I take it later)?

Also should I ignore what both of the coaches explain as the proper brush motion for the tacky rubber? Both spend time talking about the exact same motion and explaining that it's important facet of the stroke. Are you saying that this is not an actual phenomenon or just that it's not something to worry about right now?

If you do the same loop with tacky rubber and the same loop with non-tacky rubber and you try to feel the differences in effect and you try to create the same effect, if you have decent technique, the adjustments will come intuitively. The tacky rubber will always require more power or thicker impact and you will feel you are rotating the ball as you feel the ball stay longer on your racket. So you can hit into the ball more. The ball coming off will be slower, but it may have other compensating qualities like spin (relative to the power input) and control (again, relative to the power input). Other than how much you are hitting into the ball, the stroke will be essentially the same. This is what the coaches are talking about - a tensor rubber will have the ball fly off if you swing into it has hard. But some of this is really about harder sponge more than about tackiness per se. Because if you have power and you want to loop hard, there is a point at which your stroke goes to the wood (bottoming out) and you can't go beyond that and get good spin. So harder sponge (which allows for more compression with boosting, all other things being equal) lets you hit harder and still get spin, but the tradeoff is that you have to put in decent effort and good contact to get good spin and speed, which someone with a softer rubber may be able to do at lower swing speed. If you have an advanced stroke with good power, the tradeoff might be worth it. But it is one variable out of many. Some would argue that closing the racket works with a tensor, some would just say it is the softer tensors that have this problem, that harder sponged tensors do not. In any case, the mind body connection with equipment is a personal thing.

You are throwing the shoulder forward because you are not hitting the ball in your golden triangle. My point is that the degree to which you are turning your arm over the ball can be reduced by stepping forward or by folding your torso so you lean over the ball more so you are hitting the ball in the right zone. Use your torso lean and elbow angle to set the stroke plane. You can play the same stroke as you do but finish more forward without turning the arm as much. It will be more direct and more powerful because you will be hitting the ball closer to your golden triangle. The kind of pronation you are doing is usually a compensation for imperfect timing, not a bad thing under pressure in matches, but not how you want to practice without pressure when you know exactly where the ball is going.

The most important thing is to feel you are hitting the ball in your golden/power triangle. That way you are turning into the ball with your hips/body and getting good quality.

 

[blahness]

To elaborate on the golden triangle concept - I use it too. Basically you want all your ball contact to occur with the triangle formed with the three sides being left forearm, right forearm, and your body. The ball should be contacted at the intersection between your two hands.

 

[SlowPower]

What about hybrid rubbers?
I played chinese tacky rubbers for about a year and switched to joola golden tango ps 6 month ago.
When i now try another racket with chinese rubbers again (729 bloom power) the ball goes into the net and i have to adjust the stroke to a more upwards stroke as the trajectory is lower with it.

This is the complete opposite of the statements above where it says the movement is lower for chinese tacky rubbers.

 

[NextLevel]

So the most common scenario for what you are doing in that video is counterlooping a slower ball. So while there are some examples of arm compensation in this video especially in the matches examples (though more aggressively than what you did), I think you can see that most players are taking the ball in the area where their forehand still has good quality. I doubt all these players are using Chinese rubber so I hope the point is clear. Note the use of the body by all the players.

 

[NextLevel]

What about hybrid rubbers?
I played chinese tacky rubbers for about a year and switched to joola golden tango ps 6 month ago.
When i now try another racket with chinese rubbers again (729 bloom power) the ball goes into the net and i have to adjust the stroke to a more upwards stroke as the trajectory is lower with it.

This is the complete opposite of the statements above where it says the movement is lower for chinese tacky rubbers.

Every rubber is different in how it is treated. Even the same rubber can play a bit differently if you put on a different sponge and boost it. And some people naturally hit through the ball more and some people brush more. I played with Golden Tango PS I didn't like it as much as I liked the original Golden Tango. I think it is a high spin rubber, I haven't tried 729 bloom, but without trying it, its characteristics can be very different. But I found Hurricane 3 Neo unboosted too slow. Next I might try the Turbo sponge from Nittaku and see whether it makes a difference. Or I might try a low level booster like baby oil and just see whether it helps. But sponge quality makes a difference, no one should pretend it doesn't, Butterfly and ESN just do a better job with their sponge treatments from the factory, though DHS is getting better. But of course, some good players might disagree with me, in the end, the mind-body-blade connection is for each person to figure out.