Bounce with the Ball / Split-Step

[Choosikick]

One month update:

It's been a little over a month since I've started focusing on improving the recovery/bounce step and I'm very happy with the results so far.

Here is a video of me doing a random FH/BH drill on April 10. A few things to note:
1. My feet are mostly very planted and stationary
2. The hand switch from BH to FH is very slow and results in a poor quality shot
3. Balls to the wide BH I end up reaching across my body for
4. Despite the fact that I hadn't learned about the bounce/recovery step yet, I seem to be doing it at times (I either picked this up naturally or am trying to emulate pro players).

Now here's a video of me doing the same drill today, May 22. I've looked through my training journal and this is the first time I've done this drill since the video above (April 10). I'm being a bit lazy not getting low and forward enough in my stance (tired from doing Falkenberg right before). But many issues from the first video look vastly improved.

Now it remains to learn how to apply these skills in the game of score

 

[JeffM]

One month update:

It's been a little over a month since I've started focusing on improving the recovery/bounce step and I'm very happy with the results so far.

Here is a video of me doing a random FH/BH drill on April 10. A few things to note:
1. My feet are mostly very planted and stationary
2. The hand switch from BH to FH is very slow and results in a poor quality shot
3. Balls to the wide BH I end up reaching across my body for
4. Despite the fact that I hadn't learned about the bounce/recovery step yet, I seem to be doing it at times (I either picked this up naturally or am trying to emulate pro players).

Now here's a video of me doing the same drill today, May 22. I've looked through my training journal and this is the first time I've done this drill since the video above (April 10). I'm being a bit lazy not getting low and forward enough in my stance (tired from doing Falkenberg right before). But many issues from the first video look vastly improved.

Well done Turbozed! What a big improvement over a short period of time! How often have you been training weekly?

 

[turbozed]

Well done Turbozed! What a big improvement over a short period of time! How often have you been training weekly?

Since I keep a pretty detailed training log, I can tell you that I've put in about 16 hours of table time since starting this thread (6 hours of coaching, and 10 hours playing against club players and friends). So that's about 4 hours per week.

I didn't count the time that I've been at home just randomly doing shadow training though. When it occurs to me (while watching TV or taking a break from work) I'll just pick up a blade do a minute or so of shadow focusing on the recovery. I have @blahness to thank for that idea. Seems to be working!

 

[BaRanchik]

Recently started practicing bouncing with the ball after following this thread. Had one club practice since, and this is 100% mandatory to play well. I played way better than I usually do, simply because I was focusing on recovering, and even managed to beat a player I haven't beaten before.

It will take time to make this movement automatic, and it requires a lot of stamina, but it can be done and it can level up anyone's game.

 

[Wrighty67]

I’m keen to keep this thread alive as I believe it‘s a very important one, so in the interests of a progress update, here is a video today of one of 5 intervals I did of around 100 balls played alternately FH/BH vs some fairly heavy underspin and with a focus on bounce step prior to recovery - cadence was fast for me and I was blowing hard by the end of each interval, and feeling my quads working very hard.

I felt my consistency go up however on both wings.

 

[blahness]

I think for me, the intermediate step back after a push/short receive is already ingrained into my game now. I didn't play for 2-3 weeks and pretty much shadowed it whenever I had some time.

Definitely works wonders, because I did serve/receive training yesterday, and my accuracy went up by a tremendous amount. I was winning like 80% of the points instead of just 60%, just because I'm now in much better positions.

One thing I noticed when doing the shadowing - there's no need to "hop" or even lift your feet up for the recovery step - just a slight bending at the knees/hips accompanied with a very minor lifting/dropping of the heels will already do the job of resetting the weight to centre after a weight transfer. This saves a lot of energy and also prevents too much up down movement of the centre of gravity which makes you more stable.

 

[blahness]

I’m keen to keep this thread alive as I believe it‘s a very important one, so in the interests of a progress update, here is a video today of one of 5 intervals I did of around 100 balls played alternately FH/BH vs some fairly heavy underspin and with a focus on bounce step prior to recovery - cadence was fast for me and I was blowing hard by the end of each interval, and feeling my quads working very hard.

I felt my consistency go up however on both wings.

This consistency looks really good!

One observation that I had was that it appears that when looping backspin you don't really transfer the weight to the other foot on FH as well as BH, it's mostly down to up movement coming up from a squat. This leaves you upright at the end of the stroke which is why you have to go down again which is very tiring.

See the position of the upper body at the end of the stroke - it's still over the right quad rather than the left quad. If you finish your stroke with your upper body leaning over your left quad, you would have completed the weight transfer, and also enable you to press down and forward on the ball after you have lifted it (as you've done already), creating a more penetrating ball. Furthermore, you end up in the same low position which makes it easier for the next ball. Same with BH, ideally you should finish with your upper body leaning over your right quad.

 

[turbozed]

I’m keen to keep this thread alive as I believe it‘s a very important one, so in the interests of a progress update, here is a video today of one of 5 intervals I did of around 100 balls played alternately FH/BH vs some fairly heavy underspin and with a focus on bounce step prior to recovery - cadence was fast for me and I was blowing hard by the end of each interval, and feeling my quads working very hard.

I felt my consistency go up however on both wings.

Consistency and shots look good! Does your robot have a setting for random placement? I find that I get the most benefit from the bounce/recovery on random drills.

When I know where the ball is going next, I tend to fall into a rhythm and find the most efficient way to get from one ball to the other. I find I often neglect the recovery more often during those drills.

This might work against the concept of the recovery step which is the introduction of a bit of inefficiency (the extra bounce/step) in exchange for readiness. Maybe you can try the random setting and compare how different the two drill types feel.

 

[Wrighty67]

Consistency and shots look good! Does your robot have a setting for random placement? I find that I get the most benefit from the bounce/recovery on random drills.

When I know where the ball is going next, I tend to fall into a rhythm and find the most efficient way to get from one ball to the other. I find I often neglect the recovery more often during those drills.

This might work against the concept of the recovery step which is the introduction of a bit of inefficiency (the extra bounce/step) in exchange for readiness. Maybe you can try the random setting and compare how different the two drill types feel.

Thanks - makes sense.

My robot can pan across in constant movement, so in a sense this is slightly more random. I was really focusing on trying to get used to always bouncing as the ball lands, so early steps still..

 

[Wrighty67]

This consistency looks really good!

One observation that I had was that it appears that when looping backspin you don't really transfer the weight to the other foot on FH as well as BH, it's mostly down to up movement coming up from a squat. This leaves you upright at the end of the stroke which is why you have to go down again which is very tiring.

See the position of the upper body at the end of the stroke - it's still over the right quad rather than the left quad. If you finish your stroke with your upper body leaning over your left quad, you would have completed the weight transfer, and also enable you to press down and forward on the ball after you have lifted it (as you've done already), creating a more penetrating ball. Furthermore, you end up in the same low position which makes it easier for the next ball. Same with BH, ideally you should finish with your upper body leaning over your right quad. View attachment 25424

Thank you - I definitely am aware of this issue, and not sure why it happens to be honest. Possibly because I have a 50% calf muscle on the right leg from an old back injury that means I cannot stand on my toes on that side, so lack some push. I need to work on that weight transfer and lateral movement.

 

[blahness]

Thank you - I definitely am aware of this issue, and not sure why it happens to be honest. Possibly because I have a 50% calf muscle on the right leg from an old back injury that means I cannot stand on my toes on that side, so lack some push. I need to work on that weight transfer and lateral movement.

Hmm yeah that is strange indeed, I would have thought that having the weight transfer would actually relieve pressure on the right leg because the weight would then be taken by the left leg? Btw I think you're already pushing off quite well in the videos!

 

[Wrighty67]

Hmm yeah that is strange indeed, I would have thought that having the weight transfer would actually relieve pressure on the right leg because the weight would then be taken by the left leg? Btw I think you're already pushing off quite well in the videos!

Good, then I can hopefully rule that out and focus on just ensuring the weight transfer happens..

 

[turbozed]

Recovery Reset Shadow Training Protocol

A while back @blahness brought up the idea of using shadow training to help ingrain the recovery reset. I'm calling it a recovery reset now because (as @blahness just mentioned) sometimes recovery involves a big movement like a split step, and sometimes it's just a small bending of the knees and a centering of balance.

Andrew Huberman just did a podcast episode about the science of mental and visualization training and described one protocol for mental/visualization training. Here is the relevant section of the episode:

The protocol involve doing a repetition 'epoch' of the technique for around 15 seconds followed by an equal amount of rest. This is repeated for 50-75 repetitions, ideally 3 to 5 times a week. In our case, we could do something like 3 FH drives with a recovery reset in between, which would help ingrain the recovery reset for a FH rally. Or, we can do a BH-FH transition with a recovery in between to work the hand transition. Or, we can do the recovery half-step on a push as @blahness has been doing to improve receives and readiness for 4th ball attacks.

25-38 minutes worth of shadow training does seem like a quite a lot of time. It's worth noting that shadow training isn't purely mental and visualization. It's more of a hybrid that's somewhere in between actual training with the ball and visualization training. I'd even argue that it's closer than to actual training since your body is going through the full motion. So I'd wager that any amount of shadow should have benefits.

Also, since the goal is to make the movement automatic, this sort of protocol might only need to be run for however long it takes for the recovery reset to show up naturally in your play. In my case, I will do this shadow training protocol for maybe 10-20 mins per day up unto the point where I'm satisfied that I'm using the recovery reset nearly all of the time (checking if this is the case by watching video replay).

 

[Wrighty67]

Recovery Reset Shadow Training Protocol

A while back @blahness brought up the idea of using shadow training to help ingrain the recovery reset. I'm calling it a recovery reset now because (as @blahness just mentioned) sometimes recovery involves a big movement like a split step, and sometimes it's just a small bending of the knees and a centering of balance.

Andrew Huberman just did a podcast episode about the science of mental and visualization training and described one protocol for mental/visualization training. Here is the relevant section of the episode:

The protocol involve doing a repetition 'epoch' of the technique for around 15 seconds followed by an equal amount of rest. This is repeated for 50-75 repetitions, ideally 3 to 5 times a week. In our case, we could do something like 3 FH drives with a recovery reset in between, which would help ingrain the recovery reset for a FH rally. Or, we can do a BH-FH transition with a recovery in between to work the hand transition. Or, we can do the recovery half-step on a push as @blahness has been doing to improve receives and readiness for 4th ball attacks.

25-38 minutes worth of shadow training does seem like a quite a lot of time. It's worth noting that shadow training isn't purely mental and visualization. It's more of a hybrid that's somewhere in between actual training with the ball and visualization training. I'd even argue that it's closer than to actual training since your body is going through the full motion. So I'd wager that any amount of shadow should have benefits.

Also, since the goal is to make the movement automatic, this sort of protocol might only need to be run for however long it takes for the recovery reset to show up naturally in your play. In my case, I will do this shadow training protocol for maybe 10-20 mins per day up unto the point where I'm satisfied that I'm using the recovery reset nearly all of the time (checking if this is the case by watching video replay).

I like it - also because it's relatively accessible and can be done anywhere and without equipment.

Obviously critical that the moves are correct and the recovery bounces coming at the right time as the ball lands on the opponents side (in the minds eye...) I imagine I might get over 10 repeats in a 15s epoch?

 

[turbozed]

I like it - also because it's relatively accessible and can be done anywhere and without equipment.

Obviously critical that the moves are correct and the recovery bounces coming at the right time as the ball lands on the opponents side (in the minds eye...) I imagine I might get over 10 repeats in a 15s epoch?

I actually don't know what's optimal tbh. TT is such an outlier sport that most points are over within 15 seconds. A good chunk are even completed within 5 seconds. I don't think the researchers considered a sport like TT in their protocol.

So I'm not sure whether it's better to shorten the epoch to adjust to the shorter time frame, or maybe just to visualize and shadow an entire matchplay scenario including serve prep, receive, etc. It's very rare to ever hit 10 FHs in a row in an actual match. Not sure if the high reps there per epoch is more useful or if mirroring matchplay pace and cadence is more beneficial.

 

[blahness]

I actually don't know what's optimal tbh. TT is such an outlier sport that most points are over within 15 seconds. A good chunk are even completed within 5 seconds. I don't think the researchers considered a sport like TT in their protocol.

So I'm not sure whether it's better to shorten the epoch to adjust to the shorter time frame, or maybe just to visualize and shadow an entire matchplay scenario including serve prep, receive, etc. It's very rare to ever hit 10 FHs in a row in an actual match. Not sure if the high reps there per epoch is more useful or if mirroring matchplay pace and cadence is more beneficial.

I don't think there's an "optimal" bounce time per se. The recovery should just be part of a stroke and done in a relaxed natural way, and that should be enough - the body automatically adjusts when you're on the table.

I feel like focusing on recovering too fast, may actually impact the quality of your preceding stroke which I think can be undesirable. For eg it's sure easier to recover faster if the weight transfer is less on a FH, but because the weight transfer is such a key component to shot quality, I think it is important to make sure that a complete weight transfer be done before the recovery reset.

The preparation step (or attack bounce?) timing is a lot more important and it has to be after the opponent hits the ball, not before. Otherwise you'll be blind guessing the direction which would be bad. It's better if it's reactionary. I used to spend some time shadowing it imagining balls coming at random directions and having to react to different balls.

 

[blahness]

In the interest of sharing, I've recorded some of my shadow practices which incorporates the recovery and preparation steps.

 

[turbozed]

I don't think there's an "optimal" bounce time per se. The recovery should just be part of a stroke and done in a relaxed natural way, and that should be enough - the body automatically adjusts when you're on the table.

I feel like focusing on recovering too fast, may actually impact the quality of your preceding stroke which I think can be undesirable. For eg it's sure easier to recover faster if the weight transfer is less on a FH, but because the weight transfer is such a key component to shot quality, I think it is important to make sure that a complete weight transfer be done before the recovery reset.

The preparation step (or attack bounce?) timing is a lot more important and it has to be after the opponent hits the ball, not before. Otherwise you'll be blind guessing the direction which would be bad. It's better if it's reactionary. I used to spend some time shadowing it imagining balls coming at random directions and having to react to different balls.

I like the idea of actually visualizing the ball coming at random directions when doing the shadow training. It's probably helpful in approximating the timing of the preparation bounce like you mention (even if there is no substitute for table time for this).

I also agree with the idea that the recovery reset is so simple that it's almost a natural movement once you realize that you need to be doing it. So it's not an issue of learning how to do the 'techinque' of the recovery reset like we would learn the correct technique of complicated movements like FH loops or golf swings. It's more about getting your body to remember to do the recovery reset after every stroke, and maybe that means shadow training with it for every single type of stroke and combination of strokes that we can imagine being in during a match. Because the recovery reset just needs to happen after completing your stroke, the timing of it isn't really as important as the preparation bounce. So it's something that can be practiced easier with shadow training.

 

[JJ Ng]

I like the idea of actually visualizing the ball coming at random directions when doing the shadow training. It's probably helpful in approximating the timing of the preparation bounce like you mention (even if there is no substitute for table time for this).

I also agree with the idea that the recovery reset is so simple that it's almost a natural movement once you realize that you need to be doing it. So it's not an issue of learning how to do the 'techinque' of the recovery reset like we would learn the correct technique of complicated movements like FH loops or golf swings. It's more about getting your body to remember to do the recovery reset after every stroke, and maybe that means shadow training with it for every single type of stroke and combination of strokes that we can imagine being in during a match. Because the recovery reset just needs to happen after completing your stroke, the timing of it isn't really as important as the preparation bounce. So it's something that can be practiced easier with shadow training.

I am just browsing through the thread. I watched the video from April. A few comments:

1) Very good progress from the previous video! Awesome!

2) I like you backhand very much. Good wrist movement. Compact but yet has a short sweet follow-through. No wasted energy or effort on your backhand stroke. It flows very well. Keep the form. Later on when you want to increase the speed and/or spin, you just need to snap your motions faster and add some waist movement to it. Your backhand is just fine.

3) Your forehand is just too much shoulder. You need to snap your elbow a bit. I am a big stickler about not using your wrist in your forehand until much much later in your stroke development. You also seem to oddly stop your forehand stroke in the middle and not follow through.

Here is the way I see one's forehand development goes, from one stage to the next. The first step is to focus on using the forearm only. Keep the elbow tight, next to the body. So almost, as my coach taught me growing up, like you are saluting. At this stage it is very very important to keep the elbow tight, close to your body. Pure hitting with your forearm basically.

Then once you have learnt that, then you incorporate some waist to the movement.

then once you can time your forearm and your waist together, then you add shoulder movement to it. However, when you add the shoulder movement to it, you have to imagine that your blade is being slung forward, carrying your forearm with it, and then finally carrying your shoulder with it. So blade moves first, followed by forearm moving and shoulder is almost just like part of your follow-through. I hope that makes sense.

Your current forehand stroke seems to generate force or initiate movement with your shoulder and then everything else in your right arm (including the blade and the forearm) follows. Maybe that's part of the issue.

4) As for being "bouncy" on your feet, part of the key is squatting low. Everyone is too tall for the table, which my coach kept on drilling into me before. However, it is also important to shift your balance to the tips of your toes. A way to conceptualize it is, you need to put the balance of your body "forward" to the point of you almost falling over on your face. You can only hit your best shots when your balance is in front of you because that's where you hit the ball, right? You do not hit the ball to your side. You do not hit the ball toward the back. No, you hit the ball in front of you. So in order for you hit the ball in front of you, you need to keep your balance or your center of gravity IN FRONT of you. Once you can do that, you will be more "bouncy" off your feet. I hope this also makes sense.

 

[turbozed]

I am just browsing through the thread. I watched the video from April. A few comments:

1) Very good progress from the previous video! Awesome!

2) I like you backhand very much. Good wrist movement. Compact but yet has a short sweet follow-through. No wasted energy or effort on your backhand stroke. It flows very well. Keep the form. Later on when you want to increase the speed and/or spin, you just need to snap your motions faster and add some waist movement to it. Your backhand is just fine.

3) Your forehand is just too much shoulder. You need to snap your elbow a bit. I am a big stickler about not using your wrist in your forehand until much much later in your stroke development. You also seem to oddly stop your forehand stroke in the middle and not follow through.

Here is the way I see one's forehand development goes, from one stage to the next. The first step is to focus on using the forearm only. Keep the elbow tight, next to the body. So almost, as my coach taught me growing up, like you are saluting. At this stage it is very very important to keep the elbow tight, close to your body. Pure hitting with your forearm basically.

Then once you have learnt that, then you incorporate some waist to the movement.

then once you can time your forearm and your waist together, then you add shoulder movement to it. However, when you add the shoulder movement to it, you have to imagine that your blade is being slung forward, carrying your forearm with it, and then finally carrying your shoulder with it. So blade moves first, followed by forearm moving and shoulder is almost just like part of your follow-through. I hope that makes sense.

Your current forehand stroke seems to generate force or initiate movement with your shoulder and then everything else in your right arm (including the blade and the forearm) follows. Maybe that's part of the issue.

4) As for being "bouncy" on your feet, part of the key is squatting low. Everyone is too tall for the table, which my coach kept on drilling into me before. However, it is also important to shift your balance to the tips of your toes. A way to conceptualize it is, you need to put the balance of your body "forward" to the point of you almost falling over on your face. You can only hit your best shots when your balance is in front of you because that's where you hit the ball, right? You do not hit the ball to your side. You do not hit the ball toward the back. No, you hit the ball in front of you. So in order for you hit the ball in front of you, you need to keep your balance or your center of gravity IN FRONT of you. Once you can do that, you will be more "bouncy" off your feet. I hope this also makes sense.

Thanks a lot for the detailed feedback. I film my training sessions and then write a note in a spreadsheet for what to focus on next time and you pretty much hit on all of the things I've written down. Looking at it now, I see "focus on salute" very often, "keep elbow closer," and "focus on forward lean/play." So it's good that someone else is seeing the same things as I am.

On pure FH practice where I know where the ball is going (either stationary or two points), my stroke and body mechanics look significantly better, but I'm having trouble applying that technique in both random drills and match play. Do you have any idea what might be causing that and how to fix that?