Calderano Signs with Joola (#139)

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How? Didn't that option go away a long time ago?
I thought it was relaunched but maybe not.
There is a different process by which (some, not all, only the top) pros get equipment that regular people don't have access to. For example I don't think the G-FLESS handle (which turned out not to be a hit among pros) was ever commercially available on any blade except the special anniversary Timo one or whatever it was. Are we discussing whether it happens often or at all? I think it is well established that these privileges are only given to top pros and not the mid to lower level ones, but the point is that it does happen. Unless I'm missing something.
We are discussing whether it is some special privilege of pros or whether usually, it is in the best of interests of the companies to make these things commercially available and they just don't do so not because they are especially privileging the pros, but some other reason. The default assumption that a pro is doing or using something that regular joes will never have access to because the companies hoard the better stuff for the pros (as opposed to better selection of the commercially available, or something custom which is not commercially available to anyone period because it is truly custom). The main point is that there is a continual belief that a pro has something only he can get because he is a pro even when it is not really true and the pro is just getting a lot of stuff they can pick the best of.

The idea that the pro is using some stuff regular joes don't get because they are pros is makes it seem like Qiu Dang is using a custom blade and is selling a commercial blade no one has access to. Let's get the commercial blade first please - everyone can get custom stuff as well.
 
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Cornilleau wasn't and isn't in a great spot and you can argue Hugo moved up the ladder by going to Xiom; whereas moving to Joola now however seems like a sidegrade at best, if they haven't given up on table tennis completely and only do pickleball
Xiom wasn't in good shape either.

In an interview with 精英乒乓网/cnpingpang.com during Paris 2024, CEO Philip Kim admits Xiom hasn't succeeded in manufacturing their blades themselves despite huge investment and now their chair has a new plan to have another go at it with bleeding-edge tech (confidential and so can't disclose the details).

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...sales-of-tenergy-and-rozena.20860/post-469130
Matsushita Koji and Philip Kim reveal the reason behind the new alliance between Victas and Xiom formed on 2024/7/17. It was all because of Rozena and Glayzer, the latter in particular. Victas hasn't been able to recover the sales lost during COVID-19 and Xiom couldn't see the future after Rozena and Glayzer were introduced.

As admitted by Kim in 2021, the marketing strategy of selling the Vega series at a loss to gain market share and gradually raising the price to eventually force those users into getting the Omega VII series has failed miserably and now backfired, which ESN warned against.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/xiom-rubber-specifications.23573/post-316722
Xiom didn't stop bleeding in Europe for several years until 2018. 2019 wasn't exactly great. The only market they could top Butterfly is you guessed it - Korea.

【独家专访】精英乒乓网对话XIOM骄猛全球总裁金永烈先生! #乒乓球 #骄猛 #XIOM #雨果卡尔德拉诺 #巴黎奥运会
https://www.douyin.com/video/7397982027682729228
 
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Xiom wasn't in good shape either.

In an interview with 精英乒乓网/cnpingpang.com during Paris 2024, CEO Philip Kim admits Xiom hasn't succeeded in manufacturing their blades themselves despite huge investment and now their chair has a new plan to have another go at it with bleeding-edge tech (confidential and so can't disclose the details).

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...sales-of-tenergy-and-rozena.20860/post-469130


https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/xiom-rubber-specifications.23573/post-316722


【独家专访】精英乒乓网对话XIOM骄猛全球总裁金永烈先生! #乒乓球 #骄猛 #XIOM #雨果卡尔德拉诺 #巴黎奥运会
https://www.douyin.com/video/7397982027682729228
Your posts are full of highly interesting points, but why, why, WHYYYY do you insist on linking to your own TTD posts as "sources", which then in turn link to other posts, by yourself, as "sources" etc etc etc?
Can't you see this completely devalues your credibility?
Sources, when used properly, are supposed to be entities other than yourself. Third parties that corroborate the story.
 
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Thanks. Again, you're the one calling them special, ZJK said he got exactly the same thing with respect to Viscarias, they just don't make the blades look exactly the same as the commercial and number them differently as they are tracked as part of a different inventory process. Most people would call Timo's racket a fake if they were presented with it without any context because it is plainer than the commercial product which is made prettier by its bells and whistles. It isn't made with some special recipe that makes it different from regular Boll ALCs, it has at most stricter pre-selection criteria that meets what Timo likes.

I remember someone on myTT saying that there was a guy who used to treat rackets with some special process and that Timo gets his rackets treated by that guy and stuff like that - if true, all such stuff is just personal stuff, it isn't anything manufacturers are doing just for the blades of their players to create a final superior product they will never sell to the general public.
Michel Dentrigne. (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/ive-got-the-blade-of-a-champion.13497/)

There is also a video (
) and photos of the blades.
He had big boxes with players' names, I guess for some blades, mixtures, etc.

Blades from him "looked" like they were covered in epoxy and then sanded down to smoothness. All pores were filled in with no holes. + typical logo drawn on. In those older (2-3 years) from Timo and Dima, their blades are clear, so by that time, they did not get their blades enhanced by Michel.
 
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Your posts are full of highly interesting points, but why, why, WHYYYY do you insist on linking to your own TTD posts as "sources", which then in turn link to other posts, by yourself, as "sources" etc etc etc?
Can't you see this completely devalues your credibility?
Sources, when used properly, are supposed to be entities other than yourself. Third parties that corroborate the story.
If you click on the links, the sources are all there, he just translated for your ease of reading
 
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I thought it was relaunched but maybe not.

We are discussing whether it is some special privilege of pros or whether usually, it is in the best of interests of the companies to make these things commercially available and they just don't do so not because they are especially privileging the pros, but some other reason. The default assumption that a pro is doing or using something that regular joes will never have access to because the companies hoard the better stuff for the pros (as opposed to better selection of the commercially available, or something custom which is not commercially available to anyone period because it is truly custom). The main point is that there is a continual belief that a pro has something only he can get because he is a pro even when it is not really true and the pro is just getting a lot of stuff they can pick the best of.

The idea that the pro is using some stuff regular joes don't get because they are pros is makes it seem like Qiu Dang is using a custom blade and is selling a commercial blade no one has access to. Let's get the commercial blade first please - everyone can get custom stuff as well.
No, companies are happy to develop and provide custom blades for pros to use, and if the feedback from the pro is good, they tune it down and make it more suitable for the amateur market, then sell commercial blades using the pro's fame and performance. Custom blades aren't rocket science, they are just made with higher quality material with a higher standard, which makes them not viable to mass produce for the commercial market. I guess you're partially right when you claimed "pro is just getting a lot of stuff they can pick the best of", some pros are given commercial versions, but as shown by Timo, he was sent multiple custom Boll Alc by Bty for him to use
 
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I always thought that companies made stuff to sell.
If they made special stuff for special people then surely there would be a market for those items as well, right? People pay shitloads for different brands and exclusive stuff. Why on earth would a manufacturer/seller try to hide something like that (except if, in this case, a sponsored player used stuff from another brand)? All these exclusive pro-stuff makes no sense at all.
 
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I always thought that companies made stuff to sell.
If they made special stuff for special people then surely there would be a market for those items as well, right? People pay shitloads for different brands and exclusive stuff. Why on earth would a manufacturer/seller try to hide something like that (except if, in this case, a sponsored player used stuff from another brand)? All these exclusive pro-stuff makes no sense at all.
Low supply, and costs of distribution of small batch item. I think xiom at one point had "pro" line of blades. Cannot remember which they were exactly.
 
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No, companies are happy to develop and provide custom blades for pros to use, and if the feedback from the pro is good, they tune it down and make it more suitable for the amateur market, then sell commercial blades using the pro's fame and performance. Custom blades aren't rocket science, they are just made with higher quality material with a higher standard, which makes them not viable to mass produce for the commercial market. I guess you're partially right when you claimed "pro is just getting a lot of stuff they can pick the best of", some pros are given commercial versions, but as shown by Timo, he was sent multiple custom Boll Alc by Bty for him to use
So did Timo say the blades were customized for him? And how?
 
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It seems to me like many people in this thread believe that all pros only get special things to the extent that they can pick the best of a batch, but maybe I'm reading it differently. When in reality, the lower level pros can only pick from a batch but the top ones can get pretty much whatever the hell they want and will go through prototypes that are very fundamentally different from what is sold to the public to see if they like it. Better materials, and yes also more stringently selected, more customization in terms of construction, thicknesses overall and of each ply, handle customizations, the ability to balance it to spec, and more...

So I'm not seeing in what way is it not really true that companies like Butterfly and DHS, and probably ESN/ADK give things to certain pros that they don't give to the public (or even all their sponsored players)?
I’m pretty sure Anders Lind said himself he gets Donic equipment that you the consumer can buy. And he is one of, if not the best, pros Donic currently have
 
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Arrangements can differ, I'm speaking moreso about DHS and Butterfly. He also probably wants his blade to sell well and it's not a good look if he says "my blade is quite different from the one you can buy, but please buy it anyways".

Not every top pro opts to use these services even if they are available to them, but the point is that its available to them, and them only, when its not available to others.
I mean if the commercial blade suits their needs, then there’s no point to request special charges.

For DHS and more so Butterfly, isn’t it quite well known that only the top top pros get special custom equipment? I know Heming Hu mentioned something about that in a video about his Butterfly sponsorship compared to his DHS sponsorship (he was allowed to customize his DHS equipment I believe)
 
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What proof do you have against Lind specifically to show he isn’t telling the truth?
do you have proof that his blade is the same one we can buy? have you tried his personal blade?

there is a topic a while ago where a guy was given Anders' True Carbon and he said it is totally different than the one he owns.

we can go on arguing about the things pro say or claim but honestly it's pointless. no one knows the exact truth and i couldn't care less
 
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It boggles my mind that this is such a heated disagreement when the reality is that both cases seem to be true, and it may vary by brand.

On the one hand, players like ZJK and Anders lind have stated that they get the same commercial equipment. You can see in ZJK's videos that he does a lot of customizing himself. In Timo's gluing vid, he has a stack of blades and rubbers all of which he weighs individually because he doesn't know exactly what he's getting in that batch, but with the intent of asking for future supply to fit the range he likes.

On the other hand, we have photographic evidence of Hurricane rubbers with the player's name and a hardness rating that doesn't exist in their commercial products, so we know at least DHS does custom equipment. (Now, it could be they produce a batch of H3's and measure all of them for hardness, pick out the ones that measure what the player requested, and package up the rest for commercial sale; e.g. a player gets a 40.5° but the 40.1°'s get sold as 40 and the 40.7°'s as 41 etc. But unless DHS makes a public statement on the matter, we'll never know that for sure.)

As a personal anecdote, my coach has a custom Yinhe that is a W968 clone made for a player (unnamed). Slightly different construction from the Pro 05 and with the T2S handle, weirdly. (The thing plays beautifully and I secretly hope he'll let me snag it off him when he retires...)

Now as to the topic of the thread--Hugo--Matt has said Joola can work with him to make whatever he wants, so... I think the only remaining question is, will Hugo go for one of Joola's existing pro-line rackets, or will he and Joola develop something new that us mortals can fork over cash for in an attempt to imitate greatness?
 
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There's probably some differences, like lighter or heavier wood being set aside for players to fit their wants, but it's probably not that deep, all these pros could probably hit 95% of the quality on a consumer production bat. Dima can spin on shitty pre-mades, Anders can beat people with his phone. I believe there are truths to both sides, but are either really that important? (Ik this is anti EQ junkie rhetoric 😭😭)
 
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It seems to me like many people in this thread believe that all pros only get special things to the extent that they can pick the best of a batch, but maybe I'm reading it differently. When in reality, the lower level pros can only pick from a batch but the top ones can get pretty much whatever the hell they want and will go through prototypes that are very fundamentally different from what is sold to the public to see if they like it. Better materials, and yes also more stringently selected, more customization in terms of construction, thicknesses overall and of each ply, handle customizations, the ability to balance it to spec, and more...

So I'm not seeing in what way is it not really true that companies like Butterfly and DHS, and probably ESN/ADK give things to certain pros that they don't give to the public (or even all their sponsored players)?
Okay - I have to go ERT - I hate going ERT:


It is true that companies can and do in some cases give certain things to their top pros that they do not give to other players or the public. This is more true for rubbers than for blades but even then, this is overstated to claim that pros get *better* and higher quality stuff that is not commercially available to the public. I argue that the overstatement has gotten to a point where people feel confident asserting it even in cases where it is disputed or likely an obvious overstatement.

Very often, the specifics of these things are often conflated to give the impression that almost everything a top pro uses is a special commercially unavailable version of what the brand is selling (with the purpose of keeping the good stuff for the top players), when very often, it is claimed in cases where there is a reasonable explanation for it and cases when it is not true. We started out with the claim that Timo got rubbers tuned to his specifications and blades custom made for him and we are now at least stuck on discussing the blades and not the rubbers) to make it seem like you should simply assume that if a pro is using something, it is something better than what you can buy because the company cannot sell you the premium blade/rubber the player *really* uses.

I know for example that some pros use thicker or harder ESN sponged rubbers than is available for sale in some markets and possibly globally. But this should not be the default assumption. You should assume that even for the top pros, most of them are using something reasonably close to the market version of what they are advertised as playing with with most of the differences coming down to the ability of a pro to select things that suit his preferences. If you know specific details of some custom arrangement that a pro has with good evidence for it, then believe that. But beware of this idea that by default, a pro is doing something with special equipment that is not like what you buy on the market because commercially available stuff is not up to snuff.

People should realize that pros are often training and playing frequently enough that the timelines for what they use drive different priorities from the timelines for what amateurs use so in some case, lower durability stuff with higher performance is very much in play when it comes to rubbers.

With respect to blades - with WBG for example, lots of blades soak up some water and become softer over time. so you are going to make something with special wood to get used up over a short period with all the regluing? For a player like Boll building and rotating 6 blades, you are building 6 custom blades for him with a different recipe from what is on the market but when he picks up Jonathan Groth's Primorac Carbon with D09c and likes it and switches to it despite all his superior quality material?

In the end, people should just be careful when accepting the idea that pros are getting good stuff that amateurs cannot get because it's driven largely by quality. That pros can get things better suited to their game is true - that it is about customization to create better stuff than is commercially available is what I am asking people to be a bit more skeptical of.
 
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I mean if the commercial blade suits their needs, then there’s no point to request special charges.

For DHS and more so Butterfly, isn’t it quite well known that only the top top pros get special custom equipment? I know Heming Hu mentioned something about that in a video about his Butterfly sponsorship compared to his DHS sponsorship (he was allowed to customize his DHS equipment I believe)
What does "customize" mean in that context for Heming Hu, since the same phrase will be used for top players but with clearly different connotations but which are not always clear to a outsider? That is what I am pushing back against, this belief that a top pro (Ma Long, Fan Zhendong) is always willing and able to access things that are not commercially available and that are fundamentally different from and better than what is commercially available. Most of the time, the customizations are commercially available because it is in the interest of the brand/manufacturer to make them available.

For a long time, Timo pushed back on the problem of the CNT playing with rubbers that he couldn't buy on the market. Nowadays, there are marketed versions of what top players use. Whether you can boost as well as those guys etc. and then activate the equipment as well... my point though is that in terms of quality, it is not as simple as "he is a top pro, he is using something that no one can ever access".
 
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