Clean ball opponent vs Junky opponent

[TensorBackhand]

The problem with arbitrarily assigning a rating to players simply based on how they play against one player (the person playing them and trying to assess their level) is, that is not how ratings work. Ratings are something you earn by playing lots and lots of tournaments against lots of different kinds of players.

If you win a match against one player who is 1800 and lose another match against someone who is 1200 YOU ARE NOT an 1800 level player unless you lost to the 1200 level player on purpose. A good player might play better against some styles than others. But a player with an accurate rating of 1800 or higher is not going to lose to a player who does not know if he is pushing backspin, dead or top. A solid player will be able to read the spin and handle what is coming at him even when the opponent does not know what he put on the ball.

The people who complain about playing long pips players or players who give junk balls with smooth rubbers should probably train as much as possible against long pips players and learn how to play against them. If you complain about weird junk balls, whether from pips or not, it means you need to learn to read and handle them. It is not a big deal. It is part of the game. Avoiding those players will only prolong a weakness against them. You don't have to love playing against them. But it is worth learning how to play against them. Reading up on what to expect could help. But the real way to learn how to play vs what a lot of people call junk ball players is to play against them a lot. I may love (win or lose) playing against LP, but not everyone will. Still, if you do train against them, you will start to understand them and stop being intimidated by them. What LP players do, you can read it. It just requires a different kind of paying attention than you need against an offensive 2 winged loop player.

And someone who can do great topspin to topspin rallies against a high level player, but can't handle someone of a fairly low level playing a pushing game, they have things to work on.

The way you get a rating that actually matches your level is by playing many many many tournaments and playing against all kinds of players in those tournaments. When you have done that, and played hundreds of players at the 1800 level and maintain your 1800 level, then, that is your rating. If you got your rating from 1 or 2 tournaments playing fewer than 20 opponents total, you may have an accurate rating, but....maybe you don't. After you have played a few hundred tournament matches against all kinds of players, your rating will be much more likely to accurately reflect your playing level.

So, talking about rating without actually earning one is a little misguided.

Yes, I agree with you totally. That's why I just said my friends "feel like 1800" when they feel comfortable against my topspin style. Because they play reasonably close to my level, but it is only against my style that they like.

 

[Der_Echte]

I have 2 friends who I often play with, they're not as good as me but when they play well, they are reasonably competitive. When they play reasonably well, they would feel like 1800 and 1600 players to me.

However, I notice that when they play 1400 or 1500 players, they play much worse. They often will lose matches, and just end up playing worse than they do against me. I see them throwing away endless easy points. I think the reason is because my style is giving them what they want.

I will use topspin flicks and loops to open up points. I think this makes it more relaxing and free-flowing for them. They know its topspin and they can just react naturally. Also I think my spin tends to be more "pure" and clean. Also my length is kinda consistent and deep and comes into their strike range.

Against the 1400 junkier players, my friends kinda get pushed to death. They don't get the topspin shots that they want. Also, the pushes are not as consistent. The pushes feel more random, more or less spin, higher or lower, shorter or longer. The 1400 players isn't trying purposely to add variety, they just can't control the ball as well so their push is kinda random. Even in topspin-topspin situations, the ball isn't consistent in spin and length.

What else makes these kinda "junkier" players hard to play? What is the best advice to do better against junky players? Why do some players not seem to be bothered so much with the junky style?

The bold says a lot about a LOT of players... even those cracking the top 10% of all tourney players do this... a LOT.

Some of it is simply not being good. Some of this is inexperience.

Some of it is not recognizing what just happened to the ball at impact and immediately in subconscious knowing how/what to do about it. (This IMO is the biggest skill in TT) A LOT of this inability is inexperience.

... one component of reading it relies on seeing well the bat speed/ angle, swing plane, and sound of impact... (this is the sign of grip pressure)... "Unclean" players' resultant ball will often be way different than what they are showing with the arm/bat speed... they do not make consistent similar impact given what they are attempting to do... some of them have learned to purposely "junk it up" with a very loose grip at impact and a faster looking arm.

Some of it is no confidence.. which can come from a lot of stuff, usually, but not limited to inexperience.

IMO, most of the inability to effectively discern impact (and the resultant ball pace, vector, type/amount of spin... and where/when how the ball will be where/when is from inexperience.

 

[Der_Echte]

I described a lot of what is going on about not reading the ball well, but the issue of pissing away points has some other stuff going on.

First thing happening is failing to CONTROL DRACULA.

What do I mean? Many players see a ball (but do not read it properly and/or do not be in position with leverage) and want to make a strong shot... but attempting a strong shot when you mis-read the ball (do not really know what is on it or where it is going when/where) AND compound the issue by being out of position, out of leverage, out of strike zone, AND OFF time... you can see what is gunna happen - A PISSED AWAY POINT.

Second thing is NOT REALIZING that you are pissing away the point (from the mis-reading of the ball and poor shot selection) So a player over and over tries to make strong shots and keeps giving away the free points.

Sometimes, you face a player who will finish the point if you do not make a strong ball... usually these players are way better than you (or are simply better at opening than you)... so you feel the need to go strong or go home... and since you miss from not reading the ball effectively, you end up going home.

Sometimes, a player shows exception good sense by realizing what is happening... pissing away many points... but does not know how to adjust... so they go into a shell offensively and only block or push... often at poor quality and that gets them in trouble sum moar... so they revert with zeal back to all out pissing away points and "get there" even faster.

I submit to anyone ONE EASY WAY to adjust to balls you realize you misread and are not in position or one time... (really a THREE PART Adjustment

*** LOSSEN THE GRIP - like make it loose, do not death grip it

*** SHORTEN THE SWING - this makes you get the ball into a more effective strike zone since with a shorter swing, you cannot hit way out of the strike zone unless you be reaching way in front like a mudder fudder.

*** USE LESS POWER - like use way less power. This, along with that short swing and a loose grip will eat spin better and get the ball back on the table more.

Players using this 3 part adjustment will not experience a giant quality ball that overwhelms the opponent... but players who do this and place the ball well get points or avoid quick death...

Some of these players sometimes end up enticing the opponent to become a Dracula and go for too much and give you a free point... because it is damned difficult to see grip pressure loosened at impact... about the only clues you get are the different sound of the ball at impact (and in a loud play venue it is tough to hear this) and the flight of the ball (which is a read advanced ball reading skill players with this issue do not have anyway)

 

[Sims]

Very good advice - thanks.

I have been working hard on a more attacking BH loop drive vs backspin for this reason. I was also considering a lower spin push to give them less to work with and to avoid the ever increasing spin levels making my opener harder the longer I wait!

Me too. My BH loop opener is one of my more consistent shots now.
I've lots to learn still, my decision making is way behind in terms of constructing points but ya gotta learn the shots well enough first I suppose.
I don't lose anymore to lower ranked/ lower lge players tho, I've managed to consolidate my place by getting most aspects of my game to the same level so I can always find a way past them.

 

[joshmak10]

I have this same exact problem when playing against those “trash, unconventional” players. I have beaten a Canadian national team member before, and then lost 3-0 to players who have the stupidest looking technique and serves. Plus usually playing pips as well. I think that most players are so used to playing against the traditional attacking game that when they come up against someone who’s old school or different, they completely lose their head mentally. This is usually the case for me and i am trying to fix it.

PS, the low levels I hate the most are those with illegal serves. Like don’t even toss the ball! I always wish to call them out but they are usually old asian grandparents that I am too afraid of disrespecting (i’m chinese haha). I also hate the players who use the two minute knock up and don’t actually warm each other up, the just firing their shots past me out of reach, so annoying!!!

 

[Gozo Aruna]

I have this same exact problem when playing against those “trash, unconventional” players. I have beaten a Canadian national team member before, and then lost 3-0 to players who have the stupidest looking technique and serves. Plus usually playing pips as well. I think that most players are so used to playing against the traditional attacking game that when they come up against someone who’s old school or different, they completely lose their head mentally. This is usually the case for me and i am trying to fix it.

PS, the low levels I hate the most are those with illegal serves. Like don’t even toss the ball! I always wish to call them out but they are usually old asian grandparents that I am too afraid of disrespecting (i’m chinese haha). I also hate the players who use the two minute knock up and don’t actually warm each other up, the just firing their shots past me out of reach, so annoying!!!

Arrrgggggh! Hate those who during the knock-up two minutes session, gives you one to the wide FH corner, one to the elbow and another to the BH. Not that they want to do it on purpose, just that they can't control their stroke and you ended up within the two minutes, half of it is picking up balls from the floor.

 

[joshmak10]

Arrrgggggh! Hate those who during the knock-up two minutes session, gives you one to the wide FH corner, one to the elbow and another to the BH. Not that they want to do it on purpose, just that they can't control their stroke and you ended up within the two minutes, half of it is picking up balls from the floor.

You understand me Gozo. This is me everytime I play low levels, picking up the balls always because they cannot block to my forehand

 

[Gozo Aruna]

You understand me Gozo. This is me everytime I play low levels, picking up the balls always because they cannot block to my forehand

Why you become smart-alec? Why you wrap the ball ( 包 球 ), that's why like this. The ball curve to a side, your noob opponent block here and there. Now you pick ball more than play ball. Its plainly you are at fault here. Just casually drive will do.

For your smart-alecness, now go do Falkenberg on that Amicus Pong x 100 reps and set it to max speed. Go!

 

[joshmak10]

Why you become smart-alec? Why you wrap the ball ( 包 球 ), that's why like this. The ball curve to a side, your noob opponent block here and there. Now you pick ball more than play ball. Its plainly you are at fault here. Just casually drive will do.

For your smart-alecness, now go do Falkenberg on that Amicus Pong x 100 reps and set it to max speed. Go!

Oops my bad 🤣🤣

 

[TensorBackhand]

I have this same exact problem when playing against those “trash, unconventional” players. I have beaten a Canadian national team member before, and then lost 3-0 to players who have the stupidest looking technique and serves. Plus usually playing pips as well. I think that most players are so used to playing against the traditional attacking game that when they come up against someone who’s old school or different, they completely lose their head mentally. This is usually the case for me and i am trying to fix it.

PS, the low levels I hate the most are those with illegal serves. Like don’t even toss the ball! I always wish to call them out but they are usually old asian grandparents that I am too afraid of disrespecting (i’m chinese haha). I also hate the players who use the two minute knock up and don’t actually warm each other up, the just firing their shots past me out of reach, so annoying!!!

Whats your usatt rating? You must be like 2400 at least if you beat Canadian national team players.

 

[SleepyMaster]

That’s why you need to play not only with one or two players but rather with all the styles and as much as you can.

I guess a lot of us had a friend like yours.
I have a friend that had the same style pushing passive all day long almost no topspin’s - only rarely occasionally flat hits on higher balls. For me - it’s the easiest style to play against. I just focusing on looping every long ball and since I had pretty strong open up - rallies doesn’t go long. I also using variation in my serve that taking him off guard mostly. But with time he adapted and became better at blocking and receiving - it was one topspin and easy point earlier - now a need a few shots. But whatever.

When I asking him to play against some one else - I see that he can loose very badly to the same level/style player as him. And he told me - “I can’t believe that someone would be playing like that! I should be winning easily (bc I can hold topspin’s and serves against you) but can’t adapt quickly”

I guess every one of us been there some times - you meet someone that you feeling uncomfortable to play against you lose you confidence and end up being losing a game. So playing against different players - all of them styles - is necessary and super beneficial to all of us

 

[joshmak10]

Whats your usatt rating? You must be like 2400 at least if you beat Canadian national team players.

Idk tbh. But I only beat one ever, and it was a 4-3. I’ve only been playing seriously for about a year. I train about 5 hours a week and never had a coach

 

[joshmak10]

Whats your usatt rating? You must be like 2400 at least if you beat Canadian national team players.

The canadian national team member was also like 15 years old (I’m 18)

 

[JJ Ng]

I have two simple rules when I play against players who have unorthodox style: keep the ball on the table and spin the hell out of the ball. Sometimes it is as simple as that.

For me, I don't like to lose. So when I play a player who has unorthodox style, I tend to be passive in the beginning while trying to explore their weaknesses. What that means is, I will serve forehand pendulum serve to their forehand, backhand and middle. Short and long. Then I will serve backhand serve the same way. I will eventually figure out what serves they have trouble with. Then I will serve that serve 75% of the time until they adapt (but many people in the 1400-1500 range do not adapt in the middle of the match as well).

I know my forehand serve is better than my backhand serve but the various players have gotten used to my forehand serve so I am increasingly using backhand serve only now.

It is all a matter of adopting.

I also can spin the ball better than 1400-1500 level players so when I play passively, I tend serve with heavy side spins. When the ball comes back, I just return it to the middle. Then the opponent often pushes the ball out to either side of the table because the ball has so much side spins on it. Or if the opponent (at the 1400-1500 level) tries to loop a ball with heavy side spins, they often loop it into the net.

When I know my strategy does not work, then I serve pure backspin serves (not side spin at all) short to the forehand side and start looping the third ball. Then I go on the offense.

If I serve side backspin, even the side spin coming back at me can cause me trouble.

So it is a matter of, do you know what your strengths are? Do you know what your weaknesses are?

For example, one opponent I face a couple weeks ago was using those cheap Chinese pre-made Amazon rackets. He is probably about 1200? Then he was hitting the ball with me in warm up. I thought he was using a hard bat. You know, that distinct sound that just annoyed the hell out of my ears. So I asked to see his racket and it is tacky tacky (like tackier than my H3). And the sponge is hard as a rock so you have to hit it very hard.

First game, he would serve back spin v.s. top spin. Once I returned the ball, he would take 2 steps away from the table and started putting side spins on the ball, almost fishing from under the table mid distance. Somehow I lost the first game.

Once I figured it out, I just kept on putting the ball back to the middle of the table, negating his side spins. I did not care it is right side spin or left side spin; I just aimed for the middle of the table. So I got into a pushing match with him. Obviously I was much more stable. After winning the next two sets, for the final set, I just took out serves he has never seen before and I started attacking, winning 11-0. I rarely give anyone a bagel but since I lost the first set, I did not feel like going easy on him by then.

Another unorthodox 1400-1500 level player. He serves (despite how much motion he puts in it) light backspin/no spin to either side of the table. When he blocks, I could feel some backspin on the blocks coming back at me. So what did I do? I serve various serves to explore his weakness. I found out he is terrible at returning serves from his forehand side (guess what most people do? They serve to his backhand side). So I kept on serving to his forehand until he shows me that he can adapt. The first few games, I would do a push to his light backspin/no spin serve and see what he would do with it. Then after that, I pretty much have his serve figured out and I just started flipping his serve with side spins/backspins/topspin. And I won 6 games to 0.

So the simple answers are: keep the ball on the table and spin the hell out of the ball.

The more complicate answer is, do you have the complete set of skills or not? Once you have a complete set of skills, you can beat an unorthodox players in various ways. There is no simple answer in that aspect.

My strengths are my serves, my forehand loop and my ability to spin the ball.

My weaknesses are my inability to loop balls with side/underspin consistently (so I intentionally not attack any balls with too much side spin; I let the opponent make mistake instead) and lack of consistent training (no time so I cover that up by trying not to get into forehand forehand rallies but instead use spin and placement to cover that weakness).

 

[Gozo Aruna]

• I have a revelation, some sort of an A-HA! moment yesterday.
• If I give weak / passive return, junk players or lower skill players can return the ball but because I gave a weak ball, the ball come back randomly and it is difficult for me to get into a comfortable position for the next shot because the ball is random.
• However, if I give a strong shot, perhaps a more spinny ball or a more forceful shot, the ball listens to me more and I can predict better where the ball will come back to me and hence I am in a better ready position for the next point ending shot.
• There is a psychological mindset when meeting with lower skill player that we tend to play more passively, as we see them as a non-threat, and hence our mental and body will not shift gear into Battle Mode.
• However, if we face an opponent who is of the same level or just slightly better, then it is easier to get into Battle Mode.
• Think about this for a moment, do what I say resonate with you guys' experience?

 

[dingyibvs]

• I have a revelation, some sort of an A-HA! moment yesterday.
• If I give weak / passive return, junk players or lower skill players can return the ball but because I gave a weak ball, the ball come back randomly and it is difficult for me to get into a comfortable position for the next shot because the ball is random.
• However, if I give a strong shot, perhaps a more spinny ball or a more forceful shot, the ball listens to me more and I can predict better where the ball will come back to me and hence I am in a better ready position for the next point ending shot.
• There is a psychological mindset when meeting with lower skill player that we tend to play more passively, as we see them as a non-threat, and hence our mental and body will not shift gear into Battle Mode.
• However, if we face an opponent who is of the same level or just slightly better, then it is easier to get into Battle Mode.
• Think about this for a moment, does what I say resonate with you guys experience?

The issue for me is that I usually train against heavy spins, but lower level players often give me these deadish balls that I'd like to attack strongly but have no spin to borrow. I've started incorporating some training against less spinny balls and that's been helping.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

The issue for me is that I usually train against heavy spins, but lower level players often give me these deadish balls that I'd like to attack strongly but have no spin to borrow. I've started incorporating some training against less spinny balls and that's been helping.

I asked this question to my coach once and his solution is: Muv yer freaking legs in! Step in to generate your own force. Once you are in, then you are in position to do many many marvelous and wonderful things but if you don't, you can only play passively and have to rely on borrowing opponent's force which, weaker player can't give you while higher level won't give you. Think of it in another way, you have just become the weaker player because you are also giving junk ball back. You get my drift?

P/S: Let's say your junk opponent gives you a dead'ish little spin ball inside table. If you try to loop from outside table, most likely your ball will fly out but if you step-in, who is stopping you from flicking it and gaining a point immediately?

 

[Der_Echte]

The issue for me is that I usually train against heavy spins, but lower level players often give me these deadish balls that I'd like to attack strongly but have no spin to borrow. I've started incorporating some training against less spinny balls and that's been helping.

Yes... you need to face this often and play vs this. There is a different swing plane and grip and impact for these balls. You need to practice this some by self and a lot live.

You will discover that if you get position and leverage, you can really crank these balls.

You saw me do this a lot vs the junk players at Pleasanton last time (after it took a game for me to get the timing of their ball).

IMO, the tough part isn't really the technical shot making... that can learned easily enough...

... the tough part is RECOGNIZING at moment of opponent's impact what just happened... and where - when - how the ball is going... so you can immediately figure it out and get there in position to do something really violent about it.

The last sentence is my opinion of the most important skill in TT.

 

[dingyibvs]

I asked this question to my coach once and his solution is: Muv yer freaking legs in! Step in to generate your own force. Once you are in, then you are in position to do many many marvelous and wonderful things but if you don't, you can only play passively and have to rely on borrowing opponent's force which, weaker player can't give you while higher level won't give you. Think of it in another way, you have just become the weaker player because you are also giving junk ball back. You get my drift?

P/S: Let's say your junk opponent gives you a dead'ish little spin ball inside table. If you try to loop from outside table, most likely your ball will fly out but if you step-in, who is stopping you from flicking it and gaining a point immediately?

It's not really the power that's an issue, it's the arc. Without spin to borrow it's a bit harder to spin up the ball. Against topspin you can hit more and brush less, against backspin you can really brush and the ball will still drop. Against no-spin though you brush hard and it goes out, you don't brush enough and it goes into the net.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yes... you need to face this often and play vs this. There is a different swing plane and grip and impact for these balls. You need to practice this some by self and a lot live.

You will discover that if you get position and leverage, you can really crank these balls.

You saw me do this a lot vs the junk players at Pleasanton last time (after it took a game for me to get the timing of their ball).

IMO, the tough part isn't really the technical shot making... that can learned easily enough...

... the tough part is RECOGNIZING at moment of opponent's impact what just happened... and where - when - how the ball is going... so you can immediately figure it out and get there in position to do something really violent about it.

The last sentence is my opinion of the most important skill in TT.

Yeah I've practiced against them a good amount the past couple of weeks, both the FH and BH. Against the high ones it's easy to just hit through them, the low ones were giving me a lot of problems. On the BH side I've found it helpful to brush forward and depress the curve a lot, much like a topspin, but I have to start with a bit more open of a face as the ball doesn't travel forward as much and it's harder to time the shot without doing so. On the FH side I'd need for the ball to drop a bit more, but otherwise similar, approach with an open face and brush forward and make sure to depress the curve.