Correct Technique for Arm on Forehand Topspin

[NextLevel]

as it turns out on almost every topics, there are many pros on this forum

When you are an adult learner, you have to find the balance between taking responsibility for your learning and doing what the coach says. That doesn't make you a pro, it just makes you someone who needs to understand your own technique because you learned later and at an age where you don't feel as comfortable just mimicking people unconsciously and getting whatever results follow.

Of course, arguing with a pro about how best to play table tennis is ridiculous. Discussing with a pro how best to develop and learn a skill is entirely fair game, pros are not experts on teaching, arguably coaches are, especially coaches who have worked with problem students (arguably, anyone can coach the talented to do well though it does take extra to make them excel). And in the context of teaching a specific student a specific skill, every coach has a template, but you need to deal with the specific student in front of you.

If one has dealt with adult learners who are beginners or experienced but uncoached intermediates and actually coached them and tried to fix their issues, some of things that @JJ Ng and @z0uLess are bringing up are not entirely alien, the problem is language and that they might be speaking past @Heming Hu and vice versa, more so because @Heming Hu has stated he doesn't work with true beginners, while pretty much what @JJ Ng was speaking about was partly how he was developed as a beginner. Arguably, when many people think they are using the wrist, they often aren't actually using the wrist, and sometimes when they do, they don't use it in quite the fashion that @Heming Hu is proposing. I have also seen decent amateur playing adults (USATT 1800+ even up to 2200+) who when you tell them to use the wrist on forehand look at you as if you have proposed something weird. And they play with vicious spin if your focus is on their ball quality. By subtly folding the forearm, you can get significant spin, it might not be max spin but it is still decent and certain feeling from the fingers can compensate a little as well.

But the good thing here is that everyone is allowed to think for themselves. Has nothing to do with being a pro, they are reporting their own experiences with adult learners and the kinds of things they have experienced with coaches. It's fair game and I think it is a bit unfair to make a video discussing that in the context of bad advice on the internet without having engaged in good faith with the posters.

Then again, since @mcfly thinks thinking for yourself or reporting your own experiences makes you a pro, I guess it all makes sense now.

 

[latej]

Why does it always lead to this??? LOL.

Anyway, I wish we all calm down, and do not consider ourselves even worse people than we are ;-)

 

[z0uLess]

Language have effects in particular contexts between people and is used as a tool in this manner to reach personal goals. The internet lacks context and doesnt really exist in the way that some people are exploited to believe. In the end, all forum users are losers in the attention economy.

Anyway, here is a musical piece -- a 49 second interlude, if you will

 

[latej]

Language have effects in particular contexts between people and is used as a tool in this manner to reach personal goals. The internet lacks context and doesnt really exist in the way that some people are exploited to believe. In the end, all forum users are losers in the attention economy.

Absolutely, see you in 2 weeks ;-)

 

[blahness]

Looks good! For adult players who want to learn how to loop topspin, my recommendation has always been the same. Start with moving at the elbow, meaning to use the forearm to loop and brush the ball. Once they know how to brush, then add waist rotation. Once they master the forearm and the waist rotation, then add leg movement to push off against the floor.

After that, incorporate shoulder into it for more power.

Finally, the last step is to add the wrist. The wrist should be the last thing to add because adult players, once they start moving their wrists too much (for any shot), they change the bat angle inadvertently and the ball will shoot all over the place. I understand how important wrist is to generate that last bit of power and "snap." But wrist should be added last.

When I grew up, that's how my coach built my forehand loop. I was fine with using the elbow and using the waist. When he asked me to push up with my legs, that took me a couple months to figure out. Then when he asked me to add the shoulder movement, it really messed me up so it took another 6 months to fix it. The final stage to add wrist did not take much time.

For me, some adult players are obese or have chronic back pain. If that's the case, I would focus on elbow first, then waist rotation and finally wrist movement. Shoulder and legs may or may not get involved depending on how bad their pre-existing injuries are.

My coach really did not know how to explain too well. But I get it now. Back then I was confused because I had to basically reinvent the stroke along the way and he was, well, not the best at explaining things.

I would probably add that finger use is also a very important step. The 2 finger lever arm concept to brush the ball from Ti Long really transformed my game because it really improved the spin quality i could get, especially in tough situations where i am not completely in position. Also you can use fingers for adjustment. But yeah what Heming Hu says here is absolutely spot on in terms of basics.

 

[NextLevel]

 

[blahness]

I also have a different idea of building a stroke. Although the bigger muscles come first in terms of force generation, the smaller muscles are the final force generators which directly control what goes into the ball. Imo elbow and finger/wrist use must come first.

For me focusing on body usage was useless for a long time because I had huge power but not enough spin to land the high power shots. So in the end it was useless in match situations coz I could only smash the ball hard.

What really worked for me was simply grabbing a box of balls (away from the table) and learning how to spin it hard (ie generate a lot of topspin) with just arm/wrist/finger movement. This is kinda like service brush training, can be done without a table easily.

Once that is ingrained, slowly add in all the other body components to assist in the spin generation. Stuff like hip rotation, weight transfer, upper body forward lean, free arm, etc... and then start to 'minimize the arm' involvement and let the body take over.

But it is possible to do it the other way round too, i know lots of ppl who did that.

What they did was to really drill body usage and footwork for the counterhit , then start adding wrist/fingers with mid table soft looping, then the stroke is built up. But this approach imo requires coaching and also not playing matches for some time (before the full stroke is ingrained into muscle memory). The benefit imo is that because they started 'body' first, they always have the correct body led force production chain ie body - arm - ball.

Whereas with 1st method you will get match results faster because you can spin the ball like crazy in the intermediate stages, but it needs gradual rewiring to teach your body to start force production with body first. But the benefit is that because you're focused on the spin contact, you're more flexible with the approach as long as you get the brushing feel. This tends to work better in match situations. But for me ultimately I had to spend quite some time shadow practising body usage to get myself into that mindset of body first.

 

[blahness]

Even within Chinese internet. ZJK teaches his students to learn how to brush first. Then add power.

Whereas Fang Bo's camp teaches to first find the feeling to generate a solid hit (ie body power first), then add the spin later via different exercises. Then some other exercises to combine the strokes together.

But tbh, I think the 2 learning paths eventually converges...

 

[NetProphet]

That's a beautiful example. Half aware, half instinct ;-) I had a bike but never did something like this ;-)

I don't recommend it, trust me on this! 😂

I think as long as you have fun, all is OK. Sometimes I do see people kind of frustrated, that they'd like to play better or improve more. I hope you are not frustrated. I'd say for me feeling the body is more important than feeling the ball, which of course is important too. But compare to feeling the body it is secondary and also somewhat coming automatically with time, let's say if I compare to myself 5 years ago. So I don't care about it that much, but rather, let the improvement happen in time. On the other hand, when I play a shot where the body is not correctly in, like say not low enough, or not space enough, or too tight or something, that concerns me more. Cheers.

Yes, exactly. That's what I meant by mechanical adjustments, getting the body position correct, trying to improve footwork etc.
I'm mostly enjoying it tbh and not much frustration. I'm happy enough with my level, I can beat some good players and can compete against some better players and that's a lot of fun. There's a level that I cannot complete at yet and I think it's achievable to get there so with more focus on physical fitness, stronger legs, more stamina along with 2 times a week practice we'll see where we are in 6 mths!

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Hey guys,

Have noticed this question being asked a lot, so I thought I'd make a post sharing a video of me teaching this.

Whether you are shakehand or penhold, the technique and principles are the exact same. The only difference is the way you hold the racket, thats all.

Penhold, or shakehand, the video below has helped hundreds already get clear on what the forehand topspin should look and feel like, and how to optimally brush the ball. You really need to be able to brush the ball reliably. This sets the foundation of being able to spin the ball in a match when you need to topspin against long services, long heavy pushes, pushes that aren't very heavy, high balls, you name it (there are tonnes of variations in table tennis)

Key note for those who already can do this but struggle against "unorthodox players/doing this in match situations": I felt exactly how a lot of you guys currently feel "confused as to why I would feel so good practicing and playing matches against top players, only to feel horrible the same night or a day later when playing another player at my local club". One minute I'd feel like a pro and then like a lost amateur on the next.

I realised, being able to play a Forehand Topspin like what is below in the video, IS a crucial step to being able to reliably spin a ball (we've gotta understand why you are doing this and learning this). But dealing with those "awkward players" is really about knowing how to use your forehand topspin against those different situations. The video above shows how to play a forehand topspin whenver you get a ball that comes to you pretty low, with good pace but not too fast or slow. When the ball comes different, we also need to adapt the way we forehand topspin. Once I was able to do this (whether I consciously realised it or not), I was able to consistently beat unorthodox players and have no more issues against them. It just felt clear on how I use what skills I have, to win. Hope this gives you guys great insights

HI HEMING
Your vid was interesting with some good points, but I was puzzled by your opening remarks where you describe and criticise an Elbow motion which does not really relate how we can add spin by opening and closing the elbow joint to add. momentum to the wrist action.
your fh seems great but yr communication of what's involved seems flawed
I showed to one of my pupils and he was bemused by your opinion, Liked yr stroke though

 

[Jslick89]

Even within Chinese internet. ZJK teaches his students to learn how to brush first. Then add power.

Whereas Fang Bo's camp teaches to first find the feeling to generate a solid hit (ie body power first), then add the spin later via different exercises. Then some other exercises to combine the strokes together.

But tbh, I think the 2 learning paths eventually converges...

Let me just preface to say that i've never taught anyone table tennis. i'm not a coach nor do I claim to be one (although one day I do think it would be fun to coach beginners...but i'm waiting until i'm more advanced for a player before I truly try to give back to this sport in that aspect). I was a swim instructor and soccer coach for many years though, so I know that what what works for one student, might not work for another student, so that is also something to chew on.

Anyways, it's definitely interesting to see the different schools of thought in table tennis. I know I've had three different coaches and they each had their own ways they taught technique or even differences in the actual technique. I've gotten tips from more experienced players at my club too and they have their own advice. As an adult learner, I've learned to take it all with a grain of salt but an open mind.

Some things have worked out really well for me even if they were uncomfortable at first- such as switching to a more neutral grip, which instantly improved my FH/BH transition and my backhand overall. Now i'm more advanced than when I was a year ago when I made the switch so i'm experimenting with some smaller grip changes depending on my technique, IE, on my backhand flick vs my bh push. or FH inside out vs FH inside-in type shots.

Even more recently, i've been trying to improve my backhand flick, and i learned that I was basically trying to do it with all wrist instead of using my body to generate the shot. Once i went back to the basics of using my body, my forearm, and then finally my wrist, I was able to improve my technique.

However, I think back to when i first started this sport and I was trying to learn a proper loop, the first thing my coach taught me was to try and spin the ball. It wasn't until a while later that I started generating some proper force from using my torso. and then even after that, getting lower and spring loading my legs and hips to generate a truly awesome amount of force.

With my backhand, my biggest problem was timing and hitting the ball in the proper "impact zone". It took me months to get a proper timing and hit into the impact zone. Most of my shots were just drives. Now that I have a more solid foundation, i'm adding in solid wrist movement at the end of my stroke and its taking the quality and consistency of my shots to the next level.

I guess i'm trying to illustrate that in my personal learning path, I have succesfully implemented and improved my techniques in various ways. But take it with a grain of salt because i'm just a HOBBY player lol!

I appreciate that @Heming Hu is taking time to respond to posts here in on our forums too! and since he is someone who has coached table tennis players, if I were his student, I would listen to his advice and try my best to implement what he teaches me during our lessons and in my matches. I would have the benefit of him seeing me trying to implement his advice and make further corrections. I believe i would improve!

However, since he's only my "internet coach", I just have to try my best to heed his advice and see if i can use it to improve my game. I've enjoyed the videos so far and I will definitely continue to watch and see what I can implement to improve my game!

cheers

 

[JJ Ng]

Let me just preface to say that i've never taught anyone table tennis. i'm not a coach nor do I claim to be one (although one day I do think it would be fun to coach beginners...but i'm waiting until i'm more advanced for a player before I truly try to give back to this sport in that aspect). I was a swim instructor and soccer coach for many years though, so I know that what what works for one student, might not work for another student, so that is also something to chew on.

Anyways, it's definitely interesting to see the different schools of thought in table tennis. I know I've had three different coaches and they each had their own ways they taught technique or even differences in the actual technique. I've gotten tips from more experienced players at my club too and they have their own advice. As an adult learner, I've learned to take it all with a grain of salt but an open mind.

Some things have worked out really well for me even if they were uncomfortable at first- such as switching to a more neutral grip, which instantly improved my FH/BH transition and my backhand overall. Now i'm more advanced than when I was a year ago when I made the switch so i'm experimenting with some smaller grip changes depending on my technique, IE, on my backhand flick vs my bh push. or FH inside out vs FH inside-in type shots.

Even more recently, i've been trying to improve my backhand flick, and i learned that I was basically trying to do it with all wrist instead of using my body to generate the shot. Once i went back to the basics of using my body, my forearm, and then finally my wrist, I was able to improve my technique.

However, I think back to when i first started this sport and I was trying to learn a proper loop, the first thing my coach taught me was to try and spin the ball. It wasn't until a while later that I started generating some proper force from using my torso. and then even after that, getting lower and spring loading my legs and hips to generate a truly awesome amount of force.

With my backhand, my biggest problem was timing and hitting the ball in the proper "impact zone". It took me months to get a proper timing and hit into the impact zone. Most of my shots were just drives. Now that I have a more solid foundation, i'm adding in solid wrist movement at the end of my stroke and its taking the quality and consistency of my shots to the next level.

I guess i'm trying to illustrate that in my personal learning path, I have succesfully implemented and improved my techniques in various ways. But take it with a grain of salt because i'm just a HOBBY player lol!

I appreciate that @Heming Hu is taking time to respond to posts here in on our forums too! and since he is someone who has coached table tennis players, if I were his student, I would listen to his advice and try my best to implement what he teaches me during our lessons and in my matches. I would have the benefit of him seeing me trying to implement his advice and make further corrections. I believe i would improve!

However, since he's only my "internet coach", I just have to try my best to heed his advice and see if i can use it to improve my game. I've enjoyed the videos so far and I will definitely continue to watch and see what I can implement to improve my game!

cheers

I agree with you and agree with @blahness

My coach had his own method. I have done some adult beginner training in the univ years. I ran the university clubs back then so I had to teach adult beginners (i.e. univ students) and some of them stole the club balls that I had to find university funding to pay for. I was doing multi-ball for them but the bucket of balls just disappeared slowly over time. Lol

If you want to start teaching beginners, I don't see why not.

I think the most important thing for beginners is to build the stroke over time. Now I am older (and some of adult beginners in the club are also older), I started appreciating that some people just have physical disability so you have to cater toward how to accommodate that disability and still let them have fun.

I think the worst thing anyone can do is, go on the internet, watch how Fang Bo plays and copy all six things at the same time (fingers, wrist, forearm, shoulder, waist rotation and legs pushing off). No wonder those adults do not progress.

 

[dingyibvs]

HI HEMING
Your vid was interesting with some good points, but I was puzzled by your opening remarks where you describe and criticise an Elbow motion which does not really relate how we can add spin by opening and closing the elbow joint to add. momentum to the wrist action.
your fh seems great but yr communication of what's involved seems flawed
I showed to one of my pupils and he was bemused by your opinion, Liked yr stroke though

The issue I found out is that you can't really do both at the same time. Either rotate with the body or actively swing your arm/forearm, but not both at the same time. I recently worked on my body rotation quite a bit and got much better at it. I thought about strongly accelerating my arm/forearm as well to get some more spin onto the ball and found that it significantly stressed my shoulder/elbow (more shoulder than elbow).

What I ended up realizing is that the arm/elbow movement is mostly passive (or as @Heming Hu put it, incidental), that the arm moving forward is mostly a function of the body transferring the momentum to the arm, and that the elbow contracting is mostly a function of the arm transferring the momentum to the forearm. My shoulder and arms simply tighten up at the point of contact, going from loose to tight, rather than actively trying to swing at the ball. The follow through is then entirely a function of the body stopping the rotation while the arm/forearm relaxes again. The wrist is the only joint that I can actively move without adding strain.

Actively adding more momentum to your motion by swinging hard with the shoulder/arm muscles put a lot of stress on your joints. A baseball pitcher who needs to pitch with maximum power throughout a game can only throw 100 times or so, while we can do that in a minute or two in training in TT, so it's something to avoid IMO.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

There is just way too many school of thoughts and coaching.
what matters is if it works for you and makes you a better player.

 

[mcfly]

There is just way too many school of thoughts and coaching.
what matters is if it works for you and makes you a better player.

that is also my thought on these topics
everyone is built differently so learn the basic then build up your own way of playing

i added more wrist in my multiball session yesterday, just like how Heming Hu explained in his video
when looping underspin, it worked almost on every ball. when the ball was higher than the net, i hit more forward and had a powerful killshot - the ball dipped down more
topspin: somehow it was not that much different than no wrist, except a bit more top spin AND the ball landed towards the end of the table. the kick was not really improved much BUT it is something that can be added to my FH options

on BH session: because I am using H3 on Bh so the wrist only helped with clearing the net, power still needed to come from forearm snapping

do i want to add wrist on every shot? probably not as my style is more like counter mid table, therefore calculating and using opponent's energy is more important. the spin added using wrist works really well on serves and pushing, though.

 

[Jslick89]

Hey @Heming Hu .. in your video you mentioned a previous video about the grip? Where can i watch this video? This is a topic i'm highly interested in. Thanks again for all the information you are providing to this community!

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

@Heming Hu
sorry long post but i want to give a little bit of my TT history and my path (so far) of learning FH topspin.
I don't actually remember well my first few years of TT where i got to a decent level in an era with the 38mm balls and Mark V. my FH was my best shot but tbh it was a quite flat FH, i was very accurate with hitting (i was moving and reacting fast back then) but i couldn't deal consistently with heavy backspin from an experienced chopper. i could climb to 1350 french rating (around 1900 USTT) when i was 28.

then i moved to japan and there was a 5year hiatus where i didn't play regularly and with no competition and no coach. I resumed then competition for 2-3 years but my level did drop 200+ points when i came back to France in 2010. I played a bit in Europe maintaining this level and when i came back in Japan again in 2013 i finally started to take 1v1 lessons regularly with coaches. at that time i was already 40 while i touched my first racket at 15... I also upgraded to more modern tensor rubbers.

At this stage i realized that i had problems with my FH (and pretty much everything) and doing some really random weird things with my FH. Despite using several coaches, if my overall level did increase a bit, a lot of fundamental things stayed wrong. As for the FH i remember getting on advice from a coach which i believe now is obviously totally wrong to lock the angle between the arm and forearm. I wasn't using much wrist either and he did recommend so because he didn't want me to change the bat angle a lot. perhaps the coach wanted me to move as little segments as possible to make me avoid doing weird things and maintain a stable bat angle to avoid losing control ? otoh he wanted me to use more my legs and body.

I don't want to blame my then coaches, i think i was simply not a good learner as well.
Then just before Covid I started to work with coach Oya. We were interrupted by Covid and then when things resumed, he told me: i want you to have correct basic technique else even if we do footwork and everything your level wont go any higher.

So i started like a beginner, for months in the 2h sessions i had with him he was just feeding on my FH and that was it. when it started to heal, only we started to go to BH as well... but in 2023 i think a major positive development happened when i switched equipment from Nittaku Acoustic Inner + Butterfly T80 (D80 in BH) at the time to a slower setup especially in FH: Tibhar MK Carbon + Hybrid MK (K3 in BH)
I really needed to use more body and add wrist to generate power and compensate for the slower equipment. Basically i learnt to use better my whole body doing that. and when i came back to Butterfly with my current setup which is faster than the one that i had before 2023, because i had changed my technique, i could handle it correctly.
Using the wrist I believe is essential in all TT strokes. the modern rubbers and blades are all fast (especially mine) and for a lot of shots, just playing with a very compact swing and a lot of wrist is enough when at the table. now my FH attacking shots are giving problems even to much higher ranked players. My problems is my consistency due to being able to adapt to the spin variation of the incoming ball (which is basically my number one weakness especially on receive and third ball)

TLDR
for adult learners its difficult to unlearn bad habits and it took a long time and months of very focused efforts to finally get it. switching temporarily to slower equipment enabled me to correct the technique.

I wished i undertook these efforts much earlier as you can see i used coached for years before getting at a decent level.

 

[Heming Hu]

Hey @Heming Hu .. in your video you mentioned a previous video about the grip? Where can i watch this video? This is a topic i'm highly interested in. Thanks again for all the information you are providing to this community!

ahhhh this is in my Skool communities

https://www.skool.com/pingpong join here and send me a DM to get access. its free

 

[Kopp]

 

[NextLevel]

View attachment 32562

It is her best stroke. You haven't watched the matches lol.