Current state of Xu Xin

[ttmonster]

I think its also the ball change, everybody's backhand flip and topspin close to the table/over the table has suffered because of the plastic ball, in general the spin created by the rubber has suffered and thats what seems to have prompted Ma Long to opt for tackier rubber on his backhand. What has become better is the block, however, Xu Xin uses the RPB block and not the traditional block and lacks the variety of the traditional Penhold block that say a Li Jiao has. He did try to use his backhand against Fan Zhendong for a few points, he looked in better position but still could not keep up with FZD. Also , I don't think he would be able to generate as much power from his RPB as Wang Hao did , simply because his grip is more traditional than Wang Hao's and is more forehand oriented. I agree that he should stay close to the table , but I also think he should use the traditional block and variety instead of using the rpb block , use more variety in terms of speed , placement and spin insteady trying to go toe-to-toe on the power game using his footwork skills and also serve/return more aggressively and finish the point in the first 5 balls instead of prolonging the rally .

 

[violoniste18]

I guess XX don't use his reverse BH exclusively because of his fingers a bit longer than wang hao's

he improved that stroke since 2011-2012, i think he has got his best on this

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

I don't understand one thing. XX has been playing volleying FH far away from the table for a very long time and this had been his strength for almost many years. Further, he had excellent results against FZ during some of their previous encounters(national trials) .

How can his main strength turn into his main weakness?

I think adaptability to third ball attacks could be an issue, but playing spinny FH far away from the table had been his natural game IMHO.
One thing is that FZ is now in beast mode. He has stepped up his level of play in such a way that is almost impossible for other shakehanders to catch up.

Back in old days, I believe, Ryu also used to run hither to skitter with his invincible FH.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

1st, what appears to be a strength against weaker players can be exposed as a weakness against stronger players.

2nd, his play away from the table isn't the problem. The game strategy of letting the opponent take control of the rally so you can back up, fish and look to take the point without being the aggressor until a golden opportunity arrives is only a problem against the top Chinese players who are pretty equal to him away from the table but don't let him get away from the table because they take control of the rally right off the serve. And on their serves, XX is mostly pushing even though his flip is good.

The tactics of letting the opponent take control of the rally will not work against ML or FZD. And if ZJK ever starts playing at his level again, ZJK will give him 4-0 the way he crushed XX in the 2013 WTTC Semi-Final match.


Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

 

[NextLevel]

Carl,

I think you have been terribly unfair to Xu Xin on this thread.

I think Xu Xin has done everything that has been asked of him to improve and has done a magnificent job. The problem is that his strokes on his backhand side are currently not at the level to get it done and his forehand is too large to cycle close to the table. Within those constraints, he has done a magnificent job playing against players as powerful as him. I see no evidence that his serve return is predictable. What I see is people taking advantage of the fact that his powerful forehand and his less powerful backhand just do not work in harmony in rallies yet at the 1st team CNT level. That he has closed the gap as admirably as he has is a credit to him. I think XX should just continue on his current path and see how far he can go - the problems with his game stem from his childhood training and cannot be addressed in one day, more so because the larger ball forces more rallying than his original game and footwork was designed for.

 

[NextLevel]

Can anyone watch this and conclude that FZD dominated XX? (okay, no one said that but my point is that this could have gone either way).

 

[virtuososiu]

Talking about xx's return might be too predictable, reminds me of the old days when Ma Lin was at his prime.
Every other return was a surprise.
of cause, tt has progressed, not to mention the reverse backhand of the penhold style

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I never said anything about the predictability of his returns. I was talking about his choice of how often he attacks on the returns. I think his whole game is just fine against anyone except the guys who beat him. I actually love the way Xu Xin plays and I love the wild spinny shots he makes. I also think you are making some great points NextLevel. So, thanks.

 

[fais]

The slight speed decrease resulting from the switch to plastic has benefitted players with shorter strokes/quick strikes (such as FZD) and hurt the players who wind up and take full swings (XX). His use of TG3 (a lower throw rubber), while providing him deadly kill shots, does so at the cost him regain time. (Very much an "all in" attacker, vs more balanced).

I wonder if switching to a slightly higher throw rubber (such as H3, like the rest of his peers) will allow him a little more time to regain balance and prepare for next ball, put more emphasis on spin than before, and generally round his game out more?

 

[Persistence TT]

I have to give this a thumb up, this is exactly the story on every encounter he had with his team mates. Xx as you can see always rely on power spin and speed at mid distance so the incoming ball will be much slower as he takes it, while ml fzh zjk focuses on precision and timing near table. It is the very fundamental skill in toe to toe attacking. Precision beats power, timing beats speed.

Thankyou for your post TTFrenzy

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hhaha I dont know if anyone else said this, I heard this quote somewhere else I think. The funny thing is that the MMA fighter and current champion Conor Mcgregor repeated this quote in his interview after his win against Jose Aldo for the UFC title (its similar like a world champion in mma fights). Are you an mma fan ? or is it just a coincidence? Aldo was considered one of the best in MMA without a loss since 2005 and he lost in 15 seconds because mcgregor is the living proof of "precision beat power and timing beat speed"

and the interview

 

[SquareBall]

I have to strongly disagree with the statement that new ball directly results in reduction of spin. My understanding of physics tells me that since the ball retains traction on the rubber and not slips on it, like a bike chain moves on the chainring then the same stroke will result in the same rotation speed regardless of the ball. So I never felt the ball sliding on the rubber in dry air conditions. The reduction in speed though makes perfect sense to me, increased size results rise in air drag so less speed and also most plastic balls are softer absorbing loosing more energy during impact. Just my opinion-understanding.

 

[Sali]

Also we must say it was very close match. Ok it was 4:2, but it was very close to go to 7th game. So it is not 4:0 for FZD who is in superb form this year. Also Ma Long has the best year ever IMO. So we cannot say that something happened to XX, because he usualy looses to ML and also this year to FZD but mainly because FZD improved a lot this year.
Main XX weakness is the middle, he tends to use FH from the BH side and after one topspin he gets the block to the middle and the he does not have good position for another FH topspin - so he start fishing or pushing.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

By the way, now that I have a few moments to write more, I want to be clear:

1) I think Xu Xin is a beautiful player to watch. His strokes are beautiful. The spin he gets is awesome. The creativity and variation he gets is second to none.

2) I think he could change tactics and be winning against his teammates 50% of the time or better. I am not 100% sure it is a matter of technique. But NextLevel may be right on what he said. NextLevel gave a pretty good analysis of the technical details.

3) I don't think I am being hard on Xu Xin but perhaps I wasn't fully understood. But who knows, perhaps I was being hard on him because I wish he beat the other guys. I do like him more than any of the other players from China. And I kind of wish he could take care of them. But he usually doesn't even when individual games and points are close. Like in that match I posted with ZJK, all but one of the games are close. There are many great rallies. But at crunch time, ZJK closed each of the three close games. Including the final game after being down 10-7 he still pulled out the game.

But here is why I think NextLevel gave a great analysis: the length of the stroke on XX's FH, I had never really thought of that. I think that is a great insight from a keen eye. The RPB: he makes so many of these amazing shots with crazy sidespin from his RPB that I never thought about him not being able to hold down the BH corner with it. But I think NextLevel has a real point there. It would be cool if he could sure that up so he could control the table from there with the RPB.

Anyway, I think from mid-distance he is pretty close to even with the other guys. Perhaps they have a slight edge. But I think there are a lot of points that just don't get into the highlight videos of the matches because they are over so fast.

Xu Xin can do that. He does it enough against other players. The top CNT players just are usually taking control of the point and taking he attack a bit sooner against him then he is against them. He can. They just are thinking of getting out of the point as fast as possible and he is so good that he is sometimes too comfortable letting points develop against the other CNT players.

Of course I could be wrong though. Lately I have not been able to watch as much of the matches as I would like.


Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

 

[fais]

I have to strongly disagree with the statement that new ball directly results in reduction of spin. My understanding of physics tells me that since the ball retains traction on the rubber and not slips on it, like a bike chain moves on the chainring then the same stroke will result in the same rotation speed regardless of the ball. So I never felt the ball sliding on the rubber in dry air conditions. The reduction in speed though makes perfect sense to me, increased size results rise in air drag so less speed and also most plastic balls are softer absorbing loosing more energy during impact. Just my opinion-understanding.

The mass of the ball has increased, and consequently so has its inertia. A larger inertia results in a smaller angular acceleration, since angular momentum is the same.

 

[Rajah*]

hhaha I dont know if anyone else said this, I heard this quote somewhere else I think. The funny thing is that the MMA fighter and current champion Conor Mcgregor repeated this quote in his interview after his win against Jose Aldo for the UFC title (its similar like a world champion in mma fights). Are you an mma fan ? or is it just a coincidence? Aldo was considered one of the best in MMA without a loss since 2005 and he lost in 15 seconds because mcgregor is the living proof of "precision beat power and timing beat speed"

and the interview

Yes you are correct.. highest level of game will always fall on what Conor said. The very heart of every sport.

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[JeffM]

Firstly, i would like to say thank you so much for all the input guys, this thread has achieved my aim to generate discussion regarding the current status of Xu Xin. Initially I agree with some that Xu Xin needs to use more of his rbh and maintain his position closer to the table and the speed of the return, but after seeing all the discussion points, I think a combination of traditional bh block, rbh, short push, long push may work wonders. It would be wonderful if he can make it so that his returns are fearful due to unpredictability. In my opinion, he will benefit by producing unpredictable returns, as well as continuing to persue a powerful 3rd ball attack like Ma Lin, and a rbh like Wang hao (slightly harder due to the way he grips the handle with his 345 fingers spread out). I also like to acknowledge the fact that he is still trying his best when playing fzd despite losing multiple times this year. Hopefully if he perseveres, he will find the breakthrough he requires and go on to Rio for singles

 

[Persistence TT]

I have to strongly disagree with the statement that new ball directly results in reduction of spin. My understanding of physics tells me that since the ball retains traction on the rubber and not slips on it, like a bike chain moves on the chainring then the same stroke will result in the same rotation speed regardless of the ball. So I never felt the ball sliding on the rubber in dry air conditions. The reduction in speed though makes perfect sense to me, increased size results rise in air drag so less speed and also most plastic balls are softer absorbing loosing more energy during impact. Just my opinion-understanding.

The plastic ball is softer than the celluloid one. this means more energy in deformation of the ball so less spin. The bigger diameter plays a role also . The quality is increasing though lets hope it will increase even more.

The first plastic balls I played 1.5 year ago were pretty crappy, much less spin

 

[NextLevel]

The plastic ball is softer than the celluloid one. this means more energy in deformation of the ball so less spin. The bigger diameter plays a role also . The quality is increasing though lets hope it will increase even more.

The first plastic balls I played 1.5 year ago were pretty crappy, much less spin

The bigger diameter is the simplest point, but in general, I don't understand the point Squareball is trying to make at all.

 

[SquareBall]

NextLevel no offense, that's just my understanding and would appreciate it if someone could answer me for sure. I think there is a person in the forum who is physics professor.

 

[NextLevel]

NextLevel no offense, that's just my understanding and would appreciate it if someone could answer me for sure. I think there is a person in the forum who is physics professor.

Basic physics/maths dictates that you can't make a bigger ball of the same weight rotate as fast as a smaller ball with the same weight, all other things being equal. Or you really think that the 40mm ball and the 38mm ball had the same level of spin and the smaller ball was only faster?