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Spin and more spin.
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Okay. I will try and explain something that I feel is missing here.
I don't think NextLevel ever said he cares what level someone is if they are trying to give helpful feedback. I do think it helps to have some idea of the level of the player giving feedback though. Someone who is low level could give intelligent advice. But there is something much more going on. Before I go to that, I am going to give a story about myself.
One time a friend had two blades. They were both Hinoki blades but one was a Hinoki combo blade and one was all Hinoki. One was a Butterfly Jonyer H and one was a Cornilleau Hinotek All+. He asked me to try both and I did. At this point in time, I was a flat hitter and did not really know how to make brush contact for looping. I tried the blades and the Hinotek felt faster, like it had more control, and it just felt better overall to me. My friend and I--NextLevel, this was SmashFan--were with Dora Kurimay who is a semi-pro and from 12-19 she was on the Hungarian National Team, so she is a completely different class of player than me or my friend. He had her try the two blades as well. When she tried them, she said the Jonyer was a WAAAAAAYYYYY better blade. She said it was faster and had better control. She also said about the Hinotek that there was no good reason to use a blade that was so slow and had such bad control.
How did we have such different perspectives on the playing characteristics of the blades? Because I really sucked and was flat hitting, and she was using technique that I didn't have access to so I could not possibly feel what she felt.
Years later when my loop was starting to be decent, I hit with that racket with my memory of what it had felt like all those years ago and thought, "I don't want to try this racket." When I looped, my eyes opened wide. That racket felt amazing. Not just good. But, OMG......sooooo good. It still does not feel great to flat hit with it. But when you loop it is one of those mythical loop machines. I'm getting excited just thinking about it.
I am fortunate to know a lot of decently high level players. One thing I notice about them, there are certain things they see instantly that most people just can't see. So I value their opinion. By trade I spend my days analyzing people's functional and dysfunctional movement patterns, so there are a lot of things I can see that are hidden to most. But the movements involved in TT are complex. I remember, before I could loop there were many things about looping that were totally invisible to me. I just could not see them. I am comfortable that there are things guys who are better than me can still see that I just can't.
I am going to give an example.
I am hitting with Mark Croitoroo. He was 2400+ before a shoulder injury and is teaching himself to play lefty so I am a good training partner for him because I am steady and about the same level as he is lefty. Crazy how fast he is improving.
Anyway, a month ago he sees my BH and says: "hey, you have to keep your forearm pivot (elbow) stable. It's moving around and it is too close to your body." Boom. My BH is a decent amount better instantly. A week later I am trying to block his lefty FH. It is a little erratic since it is his left hand but it is fast and spinny. He loops, I try to block, he says: "hey, keep your pivot stable, just like with the loop. Same place." I didn't even realize I am pulling my elbow in towards me when I am bracing for the block. Boom. Block much better. Then he says, "soft. Relax your arm. Don't be scared of the loop." And I was. It was fast. And I was bracing like I was afraid of the ball. Hahaha. But, with very simple directions the block was instantly much better. A week later I ask him what is wrong with my BH return of serve. NextLevel, you remember you trying to help me work in it last time you were in NYC? He says he wants to look. One serve, he says: "hey, keep the pivot stable, just like the loop and the block." Instantly the return was much better. Very simple info. And again, it is such a habit I was unaware I was doing it. It will take work to replace the habit with the correction and keep the feeling in my body. But the fix was very simple and not many people would have seen it so fast. Unless they knew how to do it well in the first place.
Anyway, so much for in person feedback and the difference between someone of a decent level giving feedback vs someone who is much lower level than he realizes.
But, even that, IS REALLY FINE. I am definitely not a very good player. I have giant holes in my game. I know I have had a lot of high level players who have seen me enough tell me that there are some things that I do really well and other things that I just suck at. Anyone who wants a good laugh can watch some of my matches vs NextLevel and Der_Echte. Hahaha. I am okay with where I am. For 51 years old and starting at 44 I am pretty happy with some of the cool party tricks I can perform. I play for fun. Hopefully we all do to some extent.
So where am I going with this? Well, it is not that Archo gives "helpful" or not so helpful tips on playing. When he first started posting, there were many posts where he said things like: "back when I was as bad as you...." while tearing apart the technique of someone who was MUCH higher level than he is. His "informative" comments were definitely not something that any high level player would have given. And he was presenting them as though he would soon be on the CNT and that the only correct technique was CNT technique.
In one memorable post he even said something like: "can't you tell my level from the information I am posting?" He was absolutely trying to present that he was VERY high level and knew what he was talking about. But the truth was, I could tell his level because it was plain that what he was presenting was soooooo off.
The information without him trying to present that he knew what he was talking about would have been fine. We would have been able to just ignore the stuff. But that was not how it was presented. Archo was trying to assert that he was a high level player, an authority.
After it was clear and clearly demonstrated what his basic level was--and again, there is nothing wrong with that basic level, we all started out there--there were a few times where someone posted a pretty decent video of them looping, in good faith where the poster was a good level, their form was pretty solid, and there level was a decent amateur level, and Archo posted something like, "for guys at our level," as though he could make 50-60 really nice, spinny loops in a row without missing.
The good news was that Archo wasn't saying "back when I sucked like you do;" instead he was saying, "we are at the same level and in the same boat;" but the person was still way higher level than many posters on the forum including Archo.
These days the stuff that is off that he posts is different. It doesn't have to do with crazy tips on tactics and technique that are unreasonable. Often they are about things he did or tried to do.
Like how NextLevel said, he hears about whip mechanics and all of a sudden he is doing it, when it is not so easy to develop that skill. He hears people talk about corkscrew loops, hook loops, fades, and all of a sudden he is posting about doing them vs this specific kind of serve. For some of the wild claims that he has made, video footage would settle what actually happened.
However, as far as I am concerned, it is great if he is doing these things he claims. If he is not, it is not such a big deal. But he would be helped if he knew when he wasn't doing what he thought he was doing. When someone who flat hits thinks they are looping, it would really help their ability to improve to know they are doing something other than looping.
I think Archo is a very smart kid who loves the underlying theories for things like TT and/or race car driving. I also think he loves playing TT. And TT is a very frustrating sport to try and learn without the help of people who are MUCH better than you are.
But I think, sometimes he mistakes thinking for doing. And I think it would be really hard to get better when surrounded only by people your own level or lower. So, I am actually sympathetic to the limitations of Archo's situation. I think it is great that he wants to try and improve. And that he is so persistent at trying.
But I think, where Archo goes wrong has to do with a lack of self awareness. And it would probably be hard to judge what your own level was if you never played against someone decently higher level. So I have seen plenty of people mistake their own level or someone else's. And then get on the table and realize, "woe, when I was watching I thought I was better than him, but why can't I get the ball on the table against him?"
There are lots of people who watch NextLevel and do not realize just how good he is or how much pace and spin is on his balls. His shots are very high quality and for some, that is hard to see on video or even in person. Then you feel the ball from one of his shots hit your racket, it feels like a golf ball it's so heavy and you go: "oh, it is really heavy!"
Anyway, I have had a realization about all this. I think some of what is going on is like one of those hypochondriacs who read the symptoms of different maladies and all of a sudden they think they have all the conditions they just read about. So maybe that and a persistent lack of understanding of his actual level are getting in his way.
But there is little doubt in my mind that he is improving and he is legitimately trying to figure out ways of improving without the help of higher level players. So I would have to be supportive of that part of who Archo is.
As far as this most recent thing, in retrospect, I am comfortable with the idea that, perhaps Archo left information out for a different reason than I first thought.
That foible in the serve video of William Henzel that SchemeSC posted to show something that happened in his punch serve practice, may have happened to Archo; or something like it. And perhaps the reason Archo didn't pose his question, something like: "Hey, that happens to me every so often. Why does that happen?" could be because he did not want people to make fun of him--in spite of the fact that SchemeSC was not afraid of being made fun of and didn't really think anyone would make fun of William Henzel either.
And when Archo heard that part of why it happens could be good bat speed, he realized, "oh, that's a relief! It may not just be because I am not good." And so he posted his second comment after hiding that he had done it in his first comment.
Which is part of why I just said "Sorry" to Archo without bothering to drag the whole thing out.
I don't want to discourage the guy from participating in the forum and continuing to learn and play and improve. So, I felt just leaving it at that would hopefully be enough.
But perhaps the longer explanation will be useful.
Peace Out!
Happy New Year
Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
I don't think NextLevel ever said he cares what level someone is if they are trying to give helpful feedback. I do think it helps to have some idea of the level of the player giving feedback though. Someone who is low level could give intelligent advice. But there is something much more going on. Before I go to that, I am going to give a story about myself.
One time a friend had two blades. They were both Hinoki blades but one was a Hinoki combo blade and one was all Hinoki. One was a Butterfly Jonyer H and one was a Cornilleau Hinotek All+. He asked me to try both and I did. At this point in time, I was a flat hitter and did not really know how to make brush contact for looping. I tried the blades and the Hinotek felt faster, like it had more control, and it just felt better overall to me. My friend and I--NextLevel, this was SmashFan--were with Dora Kurimay who is a semi-pro and from 12-19 she was on the Hungarian National Team, so she is a completely different class of player than me or my friend. He had her try the two blades as well. When she tried them, she said the Jonyer was a WAAAAAAYYYYY better blade. She said it was faster and had better control. She also said about the Hinotek that there was no good reason to use a blade that was so slow and had such bad control.
How did we have such different perspectives on the playing characteristics of the blades? Because I really sucked and was flat hitting, and she was using technique that I didn't have access to so I could not possibly feel what she felt.
Years later when my loop was starting to be decent, I hit with that racket with my memory of what it had felt like all those years ago and thought, "I don't want to try this racket." When I looped, my eyes opened wide. That racket felt amazing. Not just good. But, OMG......sooooo good. It still does not feel great to flat hit with it. But when you loop it is one of those mythical loop machines. I'm getting excited just thinking about it.
I am fortunate to know a lot of decently high level players. One thing I notice about them, there are certain things they see instantly that most people just can't see. So I value their opinion. By trade I spend my days analyzing people's functional and dysfunctional movement patterns, so there are a lot of things I can see that are hidden to most. But the movements involved in TT are complex. I remember, before I could loop there were many things about looping that were totally invisible to me. I just could not see them. I am comfortable that there are things guys who are better than me can still see that I just can't.
I am going to give an example.
I am hitting with Mark Croitoroo. He was 2400+ before a shoulder injury and is teaching himself to play lefty so I am a good training partner for him because I am steady and about the same level as he is lefty. Crazy how fast he is improving.
Anyway, a month ago he sees my BH and says: "hey, you have to keep your forearm pivot (elbow) stable. It's moving around and it is too close to your body." Boom. My BH is a decent amount better instantly. A week later I am trying to block his lefty FH. It is a little erratic since it is his left hand but it is fast and spinny. He loops, I try to block, he says: "hey, keep your pivot stable, just like with the loop. Same place." I didn't even realize I am pulling my elbow in towards me when I am bracing for the block. Boom. Block much better. Then he says, "soft. Relax your arm. Don't be scared of the loop." And I was. It was fast. And I was bracing like I was afraid of the ball. Hahaha. But, with very simple directions the block was instantly much better. A week later I ask him what is wrong with my BH return of serve. NextLevel, you remember you trying to help me work in it last time you were in NYC? He says he wants to look. One serve, he says: "hey, keep the pivot stable, just like the loop and the block." Instantly the return was much better. Very simple info. And again, it is such a habit I was unaware I was doing it. It will take work to replace the habit with the correction and keep the feeling in my body. But the fix was very simple and not many people would have seen it so fast. Unless they knew how to do it well in the first place.
Anyway, so much for in person feedback and the difference between someone of a decent level giving feedback vs someone who is much lower level than he realizes.
But, even that, IS REALLY FINE. I am definitely not a very good player. I have giant holes in my game. I know I have had a lot of high level players who have seen me enough tell me that there are some things that I do really well and other things that I just suck at. Anyone who wants a good laugh can watch some of my matches vs NextLevel and Der_Echte. Hahaha. I am okay with where I am. For 51 years old and starting at 44 I am pretty happy with some of the cool party tricks I can perform. I play for fun. Hopefully we all do to some extent.
So where am I going with this? Well, it is not that Archo gives "helpful" or not so helpful tips on playing. When he first started posting, there were many posts where he said things like: "back when I was as bad as you...." while tearing apart the technique of someone who was MUCH higher level than he is. His "informative" comments were definitely not something that any high level player would have given. And he was presenting them as though he would soon be on the CNT and that the only correct technique was CNT technique.
In one memorable post he even said something like: "can't you tell my level from the information I am posting?" He was absolutely trying to present that he was VERY high level and knew what he was talking about. But the truth was, I could tell his level because it was plain that what he was presenting was soooooo off.
The information without him trying to present that he knew what he was talking about would have been fine. We would have been able to just ignore the stuff. But that was not how it was presented. Archo was trying to assert that he was a high level player, an authority.
After it was clear and clearly demonstrated what his basic level was--and again, there is nothing wrong with that basic level, we all started out there--there were a few times where someone posted a pretty decent video of them looping, in good faith where the poster was a good level, their form was pretty solid, and there level was a decent amateur level, and Archo posted something like, "for guys at our level," as though he could make 50-60 really nice, spinny loops in a row without missing.
The good news was that Archo wasn't saying "back when I sucked like you do;" instead he was saying, "we are at the same level and in the same boat;" but the person was still way higher level than many posters on the forum including Archo.
These days the stuff that is off that he posts is different. It doesn't have to do with crazy tips on tactics and technique that are unreasonable. Often they are about things he did or tried to do.
Like how NextLevel said, he hears about whip mechanics and all of a sudden he is doing it, when it is not so easy to develop that skill. He hears people talk about corkscrew loops, hook loops, fades, and all of a sudden he is posting about doing them vs this specific kind of serve. For some of the wild claims that he has made, video footage would settle what actually happened.
However, as far as I am concerned, it is great if he is doing these things he claims. If he is not, it is not such a big deal. But he would be helped if he knew when he wasn't doing what he thought he was doing. When someone who flat hits thinks they are looping, it would really help their ability to improve to know they are doing something other than looping.
I think Archo is a very smart kid who loves the underlying theories for things like TT and/or race car driving. I also think he loves playing TT. And TT is a very frustrating sport to try and learn without the help of people who are MUCH better than you are.
But I think, sometimes he mistakes thinking for doing. And I think it would be really hard to get better when surrounded only by people your own level or lower. So, I am actually sympathetic to the limitations of Archo's situation. I think it is great that he wants to try and improve. And that he is so persistent at trying.
But I think, where Archo goes wrong has to do with a lack of self awareness. And it would probably be hard to judge what your own level was if you never played against someone decently higher level. So I have seen plenty of people mistake their own level or someone else's. And then get on the table and realize, "woe, when I was watching I thought I was better than him, but why can't I get the ball on the table against him?"
There are lots of people who watch NextLevel and do not realize just how good he is or how much pace and spin is on his balls. His shots are very high quality and for some, that is hard to see on video or even in person. Then you feel the ball from one of his shots hit your racket, it feels like a golf ball it's so heavy and you go: "oh, it is really heavy!"
Anyway, I have had a realization about all this. I think some of what is going on is like one of those hypochondriacs who read the symptoms of different maladies and all of a sudden they think they have all the conditions they just read about. So maybe that and a persistent lack of understanding of his actual level are getting in his way.
But there is little doubt in my mind that he is improving and he is legitimately trying to figure out ways of improving without the help of higher level players. So I would have to be supportive of that part of who Archo is.
As far as this most recent thing, in retrospect, I am comfortable with the idea that, perhaps Archo left information out for a different reason than I first thought.
That foible in the serve video of William Henzel that SchemeSC posted to show something that happened in his punch serve practice, may have happened to Archo; or something like it. And perhaps the reason Archo didn't pose his question, something like: "Hey, that happens to me every so often. Why does that happen?" could be because he did not want people to make fun of him--in spite of the fact that SchemeSC was not afraid of being made fun of and didn't really think anyone would make fun of William Henzel either.
And when Archo heard that part of why it happens could be good bat speed, he realized, "oh, that's a relief! It may not just be because I am not good." And so he posted his second comment after hiding that he had done it in his first comment.
Which is part of why I just said "Sorry" to Archo without bothering to drag the whole thing out.
I don't want to discourage the guy from participating in the forum and continuing to learn and play and improve. So, I felt just leaving it at that would hopefully be enough.
But perhaps the longer explanation will be useful.
Peace Out!
Happy New Year
Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
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