Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Richie]

I can see that, the same stroke concept has strengths and limitations. Are you the same Richie as you were yesterday? Is Harimoto playing the same backhand in the clip I sent you that he plays? After all it is Harimoto's backhand.

Just pretend you have two backhands now, one for each situation or something like that. As long as you dont compromise your technique and balance unless you intend to end the point, it isn't the end of the world. Pros make similar compromises just at a different level since they have forever to try to fix whatever they care about

Ok, good point. I find it a difficult balancing act, but I guess I'm taking some things too strictly/too rigid in my approach. Glad to have my own self concept questioned, thanks for the thought provoking questions 😂

 

[latej]

The irony is that I'm trying my very best here to not play so arm oriented and trying to push with my legs as I backswing. But I guess it isn't the way I imagine it. I find it very difficult to find the right feeling for it.

But one takeaway is to be flexible with my arm position, which I used to think was the way to go, but then I got into my mind that I should be playing the same/a similar stroke all the time and move to the ball. But that's difficult practically as we see, so maybe a bit unrealistic.

Hi Richie, these are good training units. My impression is that you are naturally capable of fast muscle contraction - I don't know if this is a myth or not - but it is my impression, that some people can contract muscles faster than others, and I think you are gifted in this area, certainly more than myself. And I really like your BH technique. It seems you have posted those videos to discuss various things, and now the discussion seems to focus on the FH technique, which you are interested in. I want to add my angle, I'll start from the center.

I believe and hope that the right mnemotechnic for you will be to not focus on the playing hand, or on the body, but instead on the non-playing hand. Try to imagine both your hands are equally important, they both play TT. In the "FH loop, FH block" video you can see that the movement of the non-playing hand is very very minimal, it feels like it is not used. Sometimes you even hold a ball in it - don't do it, at least for some time now, do it later... In your BH technique, you use the non-playing hand more. In the FH technique - btw. I really like your stroke, and what the playing hand does - it is just it feels like you play only with 1 half of your body. Imagine, how it will be, if both halves are involved. Of course the movement of the non-playing hand is a secondary attribute, it is induced by the body rotation. So you could say it is not the core of the problem. However, I believe you can still consciously use it, and it will propagate. I say use it more already in the back-swing phase, this will somewhat automatically make you rotate a bit more to the left. And use it more in the forward-swing phase, you can quite easily check it. This will make you rotate to the right, so that at the point of impact, the body is in right position. I hope this is a way to make both halves fully involved. Note also that as you try to increase the power in some shots, your non-playing hand doesn't move correspondingly more, and that's why in those shots, it is even more apparent. It needs to be connected, less power, less movement, more power, more movement - of both.

Btw. what's up with Nick? Is he playing? Cheers.

 

[Der_Echte]

Latej,

You may remember from some of my KJH vids that KJH very frequently talks about how the non hitting hand helps the hitting hand... how to better use the off hand to help amplify/channel/deliver force to the ball. You are not making some new mis-information, what you are saying is legit.

 

[NextLevel]

I suspect that one of the reasons that Ma Long uses a two handed backhand movement is that it reduces the twist on his backhand. But suspicions are not facts.

 

[Der_Echte]

My knee injuries from the summer are pretty much healed. Knees get some creaky after 5 hrs TT at Russian Church or 3 hrs on tennis courts, but all in all, 50/50 wearing knee sleeves, riding the bike for those 10 mile or less local trips, and being careful not to go crazy on the running are keeping the knees healthy enough. Now if my eyes could only see in all the high light glare places we play TT...

 

[JeffM]

I took a long break from tt due to various reasons.
But lately, since I went to HK for the past 2.5 weeks, I have played tt 5 times in the span of 8 days.
I got to play with old friends whom I played previously when I get back to HK, but also a friend whom I met 6 years ago during national university competition.
I feel so happy that I get to play so frequent, and I feel currently that I am no longer rusty anymore.

Prior to coming to HK, I knew I was going to play with some of them, so I wanted to practice with others to get some feeling back, but I wasn't able to arrange something, so I ended up just playing with my robot twice a week for a month leading up to going to HK. While the basic strokes were fine, I noticed that I couldn't win matches when I played with my old friend, as the balls fed by the robot can never simulate all the possible scenarios in a match situation. Furthermore, he has been playing rather regularly, even at work where his seniors love tt and they held tt competition during their lunch time... So the first day, I lost twice to him 3-1. I then play with other friends on different days, whom were not as good as him, and doesn't play regularly. I beat them, but were also able to get more used to matches. Then when I play the 2nd time with the first friend whom beat me twice, I prepared in my mind beforehand what serves I want to do, and how to return his serves and where to hit etc, I managed to win 3-2. He also noticed that there was a big change in the way I play despite only playing with him like 5 days ago.

Another memorable session was when I get to play with a friend whom I met 6 yrs ago at the national university competition. He had since then returned to work in HK. He plays regularly and competitively (he says his singles level is low grade B / high grade C). Of course I could not match his level, but it was great playing with him, even if it means that I only won 1 set out of playing >15 sets. To my surprise, when he blocks my loops, I was able to consistently loop, >15 without missing, and he also comment that my loops are quite stable. I really admire his loops as they are much faster yet still spinny. He says it is to do with the forearm snap, but he also says part of it comes from the equipment. He tried hitting with my bat and found it much harder on the body to loop with my setup. He uses baracuda boosted.

I do have a question. I know the importance of having a fast forearm snap, but I am scared of hitting my forehead/glasses with the bat if I snap too fast. I guess it is just practice to know exactly where to stop my blade when snapping faster without hitting myself.

I am going to play tomorrow again for the last time in HK before heading back, and will try to focus on the forearm snap (without hitting my head).

 

[latej]

I do have a question. I know the importance of having a fast forearm snap, but I am scared of hitting my forehead/glasses with the bat if I snap too fast. I guess it is just practice to know exactly where to stop my blade when snapping faster without hitting myself.

I am going to play tomorrow again for the last time in HK before heading back, and will try to focus on the forearm snap (without hitting my head).

Today we lost a match badly, tightly. There was a match were I was leading 9:7 in the 5th set, lost 2 points somehow, and then received 2 net-points immediately (we call swine), which I didn't return, so lost 11:9. I had to get it out of the system

Try hitting a bit more forward, I've never hit my head yet, even in full-power. I think focusing on stopping the movement would be contra-productive. Productive is to make the movement (as a whole, incl. body) so you don't have to think about it.

 

[Richie]

Hi Richie, these are good training units. My impression is that you are naturally capable of fast muscle contraction - I don't know if this is a myth or not - but it is my impression, that some people can contract muscles faster than others, and I think you are gifted in this area, certainly more than myself. And I really like your BH technique. It seems you have posted those videos to discuss various things, and now the discussion seems to focus on the FH technique, which you are interested in. I want to add my angle, I'll start from the center.

I believe and hope that the right mnemotechnic for you will be to not focus on the playing hand, or on the body, but instead on the non-playing hand. Try to imagine both your hands are equally important, they both play TT. In the "FH loop, FH block" video you can see that the movement of the non-playing hand is very very minimal, it feels like it is not used. Sometimes you even hold a ball in it - don't do it, at least for some time now, do it later... In your BH technique, you use the non-playing hand more. In the FH technique - btw. I really like your stroke, and what the playing hand does - it is just it feels like you play only with 1 half of your body. Imagine, how it will be, if both halves are involved. Of course the movement of the non-playing hand is a secondary attribute, it is induced by the body rotation. So you could say it is not the core of the problem. However, I believe you can still consciously use it, and it will propagate. I say use it more already in the back-swing phase, this will somewhat automatically make you rotate a bit more to the left. And use it more in the forward-swing phase, you can quite easily check it. This will make you rotate to the right, so that at the point of impact, the body is in right position. I hope this is a way to make both halves fully involved. Note also that as you try to increase the power in some shots, your non-playing hand doesn't move correspondingly more, and that's why in those shots, it is even more apparent. It needs to be connected, less power, less movement, more power, more movement - of both.

Btw. what's up with Nick? Is he playing? Cheers.

Hey Latej, thanks for your input! That might be the case! I think one of my strengths is my brain seems to be quite good at locating the ball in space. Don't know if that makes sense. I was quite invested in another sport before TT and played a lot of sports as a kid, so I'm sure that helped a lot when I started playing TT.
What I've been absolutely useless at on the other hand has been figuring out technique in TT, so that it is natural and not too artificial. I find it so difficult to parse language and translate it into what to do with my body. I think that's why I like a lot of the body work stuff, because it isn't too detail oriented. But even that often hasn't been what I imagine it to be.

I posted because we happened to record the session, didn't have much thought behind it! But I always feel like I'm opening pandoras box when I record footage 😂. I know that there are always million things to improve and they will be especially highlighted when I post because I know you guys have a lot of good insights and things I don't see myself.

About the non-playing hand, this is something I've been aware of for quite some time and it's again one of those things I don't know how to change. How should it be used? If I use my back and core to aid my swing more, could that be an answer to "involve it" in the swing?

It's funny what you say about the non-playing hand on my BH, because another player told me a while ago that it shouldn't be moving around like it is. And I've been trying to stop moving it, when I look at other players they don't swing their non-playing hand around like that on the BH.
On the FH I've tried to just keep the non-playing arm up more than it used to be, but that's all.

Another thing is that my left side is so much stronger than my right, my right side is also super uncoordinated. Trying to strengthen the right side now with the help of physiotherapy. So I'm sure that has caused some problems as well. But is it also accurate to say that I don't move my weight over enough to my right side on the forward swing? Plus maybe don't rotate enough to the left which I could use my non-playing arm to help with.

I will try to think of this next session and move my right arm along in a similar way as I use my left.

Nicky is good! He has moved to another city close to Stockholm and is going to university there, so unfortunately we can't practice anymore. Will get a reunion at some point I'm sure 😁

 

[latej]

I posted because we happened to record the session, didn't have much thought behind it! But I always feel like I'm opening pandoras box when I record footage 😂. I know that there are always million things to improve and they will be especially highlighted when I post because I know you guys have a lot of good insights and things I don't see myself.

I actually thought about replying to you in private first, but then decided to write here. I'm glad it didn't back-fire.

About the non-playing hand, this is something I've been aware of for quite some time and it's again one of those things I don't know how to change. How should it be used? If I use my back and core to aid my swing more, could that be an answer to "involve it" in the swing?

I know that you are very well aware about the core/hips movement, rotation, weight transfer etc. And indeed that IS the crucial thing, and the movement of non-hitting (thanks Der, that's better than non-playing ) hand is only secondary, and the "correct" movement of the non-hitting hand only manifests, that the more important thingees (core etc.) have been done/moved correctly. But the non-hitting hand can serve a purpose here, it can get you there. It is because it is so easy to think about it, especially when it is under-utilized. And easy to verify.

So, as mentioned, during backswing, it will help you rotate to the left a bit more. I actually don't think you need to rotate to the left that much more, I think you are rotated just fine, maybe it could be, but only tiny bit more. But it will help to make sure your body rotates to the right as you swing forward, and that the chest is properly "opened" at the time of ball contact. At that time, you can check where your right hand (the non-hitting) is. It should - the hand - be say somewhere near the right shoulder, or heart, heart-shoulder (it is individual, apply rule of thumb). That is a significant distance, from the start position. And if it is there, the chest can't be but opened, the body must have rotated, and then in contact, you transfer the energy nicely, and it all continues a bit (note that if the non-hitting arm didn't do this movement, it can't continue any movement, but it should, it is 1 movement, it is part of it), it all relaxes down (not abruptly), and then the new loop backswing starts...

Even though all this movement, if you look at it, it looks like the arms (hitting, non-hitting) are moved synchronously (both by the rotation of the body, due to weight transfer, as you push with your left foot). And they are. But it should feel as if the non-hitting arm is moved slightly in advance, imagine like if it "charges" the hitting hand by that, and then the hitting arm snaps (like even faster). It is actually synchronous, but it feels a bit asynchronous, like "pre-rotated".

Another thing is, alhought it is not your case. I think often people think about what the hitting arm does, how it moves, what angle, does it wrap around the ball during contact, all those things, which I think is completely unproductive. Thinking about the non-hitting arm, and making sure it does what it should, could free you from focusing on wrong things, and the body - the hitting arm (if left in peace ) - would do the right thing automatically.

It's funny what you say about the non-playing hand on my BH, because another player told me a while ago that it shouldn't be moving around like it is. And I've been trying to stop moving it, when I look at other players they don't swing their non-playing hand around like that on the BH.
On the FH I've tried to just keep the non-playing arm up more than it used to be, but that's all.

About the BH, I don't know. I like it. I would not worry about it. (I try to improve mine too. Perhaps I can't focus on it now.)

Another thing is that my left side is so much stronger than my right, my right side is also super uncoordinated. Trying to strengthen the right side now with the help of physiotherapy. So I'm sure that has caused some problems as well. But is it also accurate to say that I don't move my weight over enough to my right side on the forward swing? Plus maybe don't rotate enough to the left which I could use my non-playing arm to help with.

Yes, the core/hips movement is crucial. But in your case (only in your case) I'd suggest not thinking about it much for a while now. Try the non-hitting hand now. The pieces of the puzzle will come together...

Hey Latej, thanks for your input! That might be the case! I think one of my strengths is my brain seems to be quite good at locating the ball in space. Don't know if that makes sense. I was quite invested in another sport before TT and played a lot of sports as a kid, so I'm sure that helped a lot when I started playing TT.
What I've been absolutely useless at on the other hand has been figuring out technique in TT, so that it is natural and not too artificial. I find it so difficult to parse language and translate it into what to do with my body. I think that's why I like a lot of the body work stuff, because it isn't too detail oriented. But even that often hasn't been what I imagine it to be.

Understand. When I was younger I also enjoyed more those more mind-less activities Anyway here I believe, if you start looking at the movement as a whole, there is a lot of fun. And then thinking about movement itself - I mean relative to table - there is a lot of fun and potential too.

Nicky is good! He has moved to another city close to Stockholm and is going to university there, so unfortunately we can't practice anymore. Will get a reunion at some point I'm sure 😁

Greetings We all soon gonna play in heaven it seems

 

[Richie]

I actually thought about replying to you in private first, but then decided to write here. I'm glad it didn't back-fire.



I know that you are very well aware about the core/hips movement, rotation, weight transfer etc. And indeed that IS the crucial thing, and the movement of non-hitting (thanks Der, that's better than non-playing ) hand is only secondary, and the "correct" movement of the non-hitting hand only manifests, that the more important thingees (core etc.) have been done/moved correctly. But the non-hitting hand can serve a purpose here, it can get you there. It is because it is so easy to think about it, especially when it is under-utilized. And easy to verify.

So, as mentioned, during backswing, it will help you rotate to the left a bit more. I actually don't think you need to rotate to the left that much more, I think you are rotated just fine, maybe it could be, but only tiny bit more. But it will help to make sure your body rotates to the right as you swing forward, and that the chest is properly "opened" at the time of ball contact. At that time, you can check where your right hand (the non-hitting) is. It should - the hand - be say somewhere near the right shoulder, or heart, heart-shoulder (it is individual, apply rule of thumb). That is a significant distance, from the start position. And if it is there, the chest can't be but opened, the body must have rotated, and then in contact, you transfer the energy nicely, and it all continues a bit (note that if the non-hitting arm didn't do this movement, it can't continue any movement, but it should, it is 1 movement, it is part of it), it all relaxes down (not abruptly), and then the new loop backswing starts...

Even though all this movement, if you look at it, it looks like the arms (hitting, non-hitting) are moved synchronously (both by the rotation of the body, due to weight transfer, as you push with your left foot). And they are. But it should feel as if the non-hitting arm is moved slightly in advance, imagine like if it "charges" the hitting hand by that, and then the hitting arm snaps (like even faster). It is actually synchronous, but it feels a bit asynchronous, like "pre-rotated".

Another thing is, alhought it is not your case. I think often people think about what the hitting arm does, how it moves, what angle, does it wrap around the ball during contact, all those things, which I think is completely unproductive. Thinking about the non-hitting arm, and making sure it does what it should, could free you from focusing on wrong things, and the body - the hitting arm (if left in peace ) - would do the right thing automatically.



About the BH, I don't know. I like it. I would not worry about it. (I try to improve mine too. Perhaps I can't focus on it now.)



Yes, the core/hips movement is crucial. But in your case (only in your case) I'd suggest not thinking about it much for a while now. Try the non-hitting hand now. The pieces of the puzzle will come together...



Understand. When I was younger I also enjoyed more those more mind-less activities Anyway here I believe, if you start looking at the movement as a whole, there is a lot of fun. And then thinking about movement itself - I mean relative to table - there is a lot of fun and potential too.



Greetings We all soon gonna play in heaven it seems

Cheers! Gonna give it a go and see what happens. When I make changes it always feels like I'm making a massive change in practice, then when I review the video it often looks like no changes were made, funny how it goes. No problem to write here, maybe others can learn from this, better to have it out in the open.

 

[Richie]

Latej,

You may remember from some of my KJH vids that KJH very frequently talks about how the non hitting hand helps the hitting hand... how to better use the off hand to help amplify/channel/deliver force to the ball. You are not making some new mis-information, what you are saying is legit.

Do you happen to have a link to one of those videos?

 

[Der_Echte]

I have done dozens of his vids over the last 10 years, so I cannot in a one minute pin point the thread for you, search them out, but this you tube vid, I timed at 2:51 he talks about the free hand, then demonstrates a few reps all the way to 3:30s with slo-mo.

 

[IB66]

Using the free hand, is one of the things Ti Long advocates, But he likes to see the free arm pulled back slightly, pulled away from the ball, both FH & BH

 

[JeffM]

Try hitting a bit more forward, I've never hit my head yet, even in full-power. I think focusing on stopping the movement would be contra-productive. Productive is to make the movement (as a whole, incl. body) so you don't have to think about it.

Thanks for the advice

I played today, last time while I am in HK. I focused on snapping the forearm when looping. Seemed like I was able to produce 2 types of loops:
1. slow spinny consistent ones from my previous loop motion
2. faster, perhaps less spinny but with snapping the forearm faster

My friend said he found the 2nd type harder to block back. Not sure if it is because he is used to blocking the slower type, but I will need to practice the 2nd type more to make it as consistent as the 1st type and then use it in matches.

 

[NextLevel]

Given the direction in which this chat has gone about using the off arm, I was pointed to this youtube channel which has good captions in English recently. I was watching this video and he talked about using the off arm to form a triangle to improve the timing/hitting zone. Turn on captions and enjoy.

https://youtu.be/JIMUOeDIabw?t=436

 

[Haraold]

is the "golden Triangle Sweetspot" for your optimal Ballhitpoint still valid?

 

[NextLevel]

is the "golden Triangle Sweetspot" for your optimal Ballhitpoint still valid?

I think so... why do you ask?

 

[Richie]

Tough matches in div 2 here in Sweden today, it's above my level for sure. But I finally felt like I could relax a bit and could play without any pressure.

The venue really makes a big difference, today my old club arranged the fixtures. It feels so much better to play in a familiar setting. We played the top teams and beat one of them. I beat two players a little higher ranked than me 3-0 in both. Also did well against one of the better players but lost 1-3. And 0-3 against another better player.

In general I do better against the players around my age than the old foxes. But I shouldn’t be too hard on myself, because when I think about it, even the younger players have like 10 years experience on me and the older guys like 30-40 years. So I’m happy I can do as well as I am. I get too little exposure to the serve variation that the better players have, so they have a big advantage over me there. But in the open game I’m not doing too bad. The players I practice with, I’m so used to their patterns I’m on autopilot.. Can’t do that with players I have no exposure to.

Pretty crazy levels in the hall. Li Fen played on one table, she’s won european champs. Some guy who beat Jörgen Persson when he was younger. And a guy from Norway that pressured Truls a few years ago, he has like a 2600-2800 Swedish rating. Maybe the next arrangement we'll play the team with Li Fen. Always fun to get destroyed by really good players..

 

[NextLevel]

So I have become even more fascinated with Nigerian table tennis, thanks to a very little known youtube channel. Obviously, some of the cultural nuances will be lost on some (even some are lost on me), but if you want to see relatively high level table tennis (usually 2000- 2650 USATT) depending on who shows up, you can watch this channel. IF the link doesn't work, it is for the Ozone Table Tennis youtube channel. Lots of coverage of Nigerian table tennis.

 

[NextLevel]

Managed to get enough free time to play again. This is probably the 4th time I am playing table tennis this year. I am incredibly rusty, struggling to beat 1600 players. Hopefully, I will get better at something somehow... but I have to accept myself, even getting decent again could take a while.