Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[SleepyMaster]

Hi NL,

You might remember, some of the best moments of learning or discovery happen right when the camera is NOT rolling. It is completely OK. You have a great mental camera.

Totally agree, we are mostly playing to progress and fun, not for became a TT bloggers. Right?

After 3-4 hours of playing matches/tourney, the first thing that I enjoy, that I did it, the second would be how successfully I have played, and the least one - did I manage to record it on camera or not

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi GM,

NL has a good habit of recording EVRY damn thing... it is good to do this to catch and re-hear good stuff.

A decade ago, NL and I were in a NYC TT club and he had run his camera for HOURS... when his camera was OFF, I went into a ten minute talk about some things concerning impact and rebound... This was NOT recorded, but NL used this info and defeated a very skilled famous 2200 level player in a sanctioned tourney...

This would be a crowning achievement for just about any offensive player over 2300 level as those type struggle MIGHTILY vs the famous Rich D.

I was not remembering that day what I had said with enough clarity to NL to give him an edge vs that player, but NL told me it was some words about rebound and hand grip pressure adjustment at impact how a player could do that and make a certain ball(s) as a result.

That data helped him win and he regretted he did not record that moment... but that is exactly why I say even unrecorded moments can have great value.

 

[SleepyMaster]

Hi GM,

NL has a good habit of recording EVRY damn thing... it is good to do this to catch and re-hear good stuff.

A decade ago, NL and I were in a NYC TT club and he had run his camera for HOURS... when his camera was OFF, I went into a ten minute talk about some things concerning impact and rebound... This was NOT recorded, but NL used this info and defeated a very skilled famous 2200 level player in a sanctioned tourney...

This would be a crowning achievement for just about any offensive player over 2300 level as those type struggle MIGHTILY vs the famous Rich D.

I was not remembering that day what I had said with enough clarity to NL to give him an edge vs that player, but NL told me it was some words about rebound and hand grip pressure adjustment at impact how a player could do that and make a certain ball(s) as a result.

That data helped him win and he regretted he did not record that moment... but that is exactly why I say even unrecorded moments can have great value.

Yeah, I get it. I have several wins over league players, that came time to time in our group on Saturday tourney. And one of them actually, never coming back after that loss. He thought that he is so cool, but reality gives him different picture, and he didn’t like it.

It would be good to recording that, but the most value for me, was a complementary words from my coach and a team mates, and an understanding of that if I play a good, tactically and technically correct game - I can get a win over much more experienced players. Understanding of that all time that i put in training is giving the benefits and results.

Does it be good to recording it? Absolutely, yes. But if I didn’t, it doesn’t change anything to me. I know what I capable of, my coach knowings it, and even that guy knowing it, that’s why we didn’t see him no more

 

[NextLevel]

Recording is more about self awareness. Memory can distort and deceive, especially when you lose. You think you did nothing right, when in reality you probably did a lot of things well but let the results skew your perception. Table tennis can be so precise at challenging speeds that small detains can matter a lot at those speeds. When I say I played physical, I am usually talking about playing at a speed that challenged me.

One of the biggest things recording helped me do was adjust my mindset when struggling on serve return. It helped me realize that no matter how good the server was, I would read the serves better subconsciously as the match went on, the main issue was to continue to execute with the right mindset and not let the previous point performance affect your focus for the next point and to keep probing the opponent as if it is a best of 5 not a best of one. Before I used to let the pressure of the score and the previous point affect my focus and started doing worse on my serve when I was down. Now I have a similar problem when I am up but I just need to work on being precise about what to execute. I have my set patterns and combos that are habitual, I just need to build a real playbook with them and stop missing or pretending that I don't know what I intend to do to break apart basic opponents.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Stroking gives you cred,
But don't forget your service too.

 

[JeffM]

Tonight I played at the club (weekly).
We have quite a full house, with me, captain (no 2), another member (no 3), my colleague, and also the best player from nearby town, along with others.
I played all of the above except my colleague.

I have been a bit more slack with the gym work (used to go at least 3 times a week, but last few weeks probably only twice a week + TT, which does not help with the super cold weather).

I beat cap and the no 3 player, and then I play the best player from nearby town. That player from nearby town is the one that was in the finals of our comp last month. He has been playing me more often last few weeks and tonight he beat me. My forehand was not working. I was unable to loop backspin balls consistently with it, and I can think of several reasons to blame (such as cold weather making my hands very cold, last match of the day so I am more tired and less focused, too focused on backhand and neglecting the fh), but none than myself that I need more practice to get the feeling back. Even before the match, in the warm up, I didn't feel I had it in the forehand loop feeling. A bit also to do with the mentality, I think normally in a match, I would try to calm myself down, but today I was quite negative about it all. I lost first set, then I got 3 sets back, but then I lost 3 sets after. The last set was 12-10 I lost.

His serves were mostly short topspin or super weak backspin, so I had to banana flick alot, and I am not getting bad results with it, but when I am not flicking, I push and then the ball pops up. I need to figure out better ways to deal with it, as even though it is good to flick, when I feel more tired, the flick % goes down. His serves are quite low, so even when I flick, it wasn't like an easy one, good thing is there is usually not much backspin. He also does the reverse spin short serve with the shovel action and I don't feel as comfortable receiving those than usual topspin serves. I still flick and it goes on but I am more scared of oit. Maybe I just need to go for it and not be scared?
I am just missing so much fh loops it is sad. I wonder if it is because I am prioritising my bh so it changes the way I stand.

 

[JeffM]

To add further on, he is giving me lots of trouble, he has gotten alot better. Meanwhile I am getting my bhs on, he too is getting it on, and he is quite aggressive in getting the first attack in, always looking to open up. His short game is pretty good too.

I will need to practice more forehand loops and adjust mentality accordingly.

 

[NextLevel]

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Stroking gives you cred,
But don't forget your service too.
View attachment 25671

Get a coach or good server to teach you how to do build serves, it can be the most valuable experience you will ever get. Without this, you can waste a lot of time putting in hours at the table without developing really effective serves. All you need with the coach is maybe 5 to 10 minutes of instruction followed by 1-2 hours of personal practice, which will eventually becomes hundreds and thousands of hours, but the instruction they give you to guide the practice is very important. You need to work on depth, placement, spin, deception. All while pushing yourself to the limits in practice.

The biggest thing you need to ask them is their development process, and how they approach it, and how long it took before they got fast enough that people couldn't catch up. Think of serving as similar to being a magician practicing a magic trick, if the magician does it in slow motion, everyone can see what the magician did. But over time, practicing the right things, the trick becomes so fast that only the experts who know how the trick was achieved can see it reasonably well or know what to look for. You don't get good at that just by serving over and over again, you need to know what needs to be done to give the deception. It can take a year, but like a wise coach once said, you will definitely be playing in a year, but you won't have the serve if you don't start today!

 

[NextLevel]

Tonight I played at the club (weekly).
We have quite a full house, with me, captain (no 2), another member (no 3), my colleague, and also the best player from nearby town, along with others.
I played all of the above except my colleague.

I have been a bit more slack with the gym work (used to go at least 3 times a week, but last few weeks probably only twice a week + TT, which does not help with the super cold weather).

I beat cap and the no 3 player, and then I play the best player from nearby town. That player from nearby town is the one that was in the finals of our comp last month. He has been playing me more often last few weeks and tonight he beat me. My forehand was not working. I was unable to loop backspin balls consistently with it, and I can think of several reasons to blame (such as cold weather making my hands very cold, last match of the day so I am more tired and less focused, too focused on backhand and neglecting the fh), but none than myself that I need more practice to get the feeling back. Even before the match, in the warm up, I didn't feel I had it in the forehand loop feeling. A bit also to do with the mentality, I think normally in a match, I would try to calm myself down, but today I was quite negative about it all. I lost first set, then I got 3 sets back, but then I lost 3 sets after. The last set was 12-10 I lost.

His serves were mostly short topspin or super weak backspin, so I had to banana flick alot, and I am not getting bad results with it, but when I am not flicking, I push and then the ball pops up. I need to figure out better ways to deal with it, as even though it is good to flick, when I feel more tired, the flick % goes down. His serves are quite low, so even when I flick, it wasn't like an easy one, good thing is there is usually not much backspin. He also does the reverse spin short serve with the shovel action and I don't feel as comfortable receiving those than usual topspin serves. I still flick and it goes on but I am more scared of oit. Maybe I just need to go for it and not be scared?
I am just missing so much fh loops it is sad. I wonder if it is because I am prioritising my bh so it changes the way I stand.

That's where video helps, you are remembering a lot of things that sound like you are focused on how you feel about losing. Everyone loses, even sometimes to players they should easily beat, don't let results affect your process and just wait until next time to record the matches so you can ground your ideas in evidence rather than how you feel about losing. It is good to get challenged, without it, you would not feel the need to improve.

 

[NextLevel]

To add further on, he is giving me lots of trouble, he has gotten alot better. Meanwhile I am getting my bhs on, he too is getting it on, and he is quite aggressive in getting the first attack in, always looking to open up. His short game is pretty good too.

I will need to practice more forehand loops and adjust mentality accordingly.

You are pushing him, so he is trying to push you. It is a good thing thing for both of you. You may not like it because you want to remain on top, but if you have external competition, you will appreciate what he is doing for both your games.

 

[JeffM]

You are pushing him, so he is trying to push you. It is a good thing thing for both of you. You may not like it because you want to remain on top, but if you have external competition, you will appreciate what he is doing for both your games.

Yeah I know it will be good for both of us. Especially when we play externally next month.
Just didn't feel good losing after a long while haha.

Yeah I think I will try record. Not sure if he will allow it as last time I did it sort of as part of the competition, but it will help. I am sure he would want a copy of the video to study how I play too.

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah I know it will be good for both of us. Especially when we play externally next month.
Just didn't feel good losing after a long while haha.

Yeah I think I will try record. Not sure if he will allow it as last time I did it sort of as part of the competition, but it will help. I am sure he would want a copy of the video to study how I play too.

He can also record the matches himself, you are not obligated to share footage with him. Obviously, you can be nice and do so, but you can also just forget to send it or stuff like that. That said, if he plays you better and smarter, you get better and smarter about your game and develop new tools over time. IMHO, there is nothing more annoying than having your known weaknesses exploited under real competitive pressure because you never felt you needed to work on the weaknesses even though you knew about them. It's even worse when you have a good technical shot but you just don't use it because you never practiced it.

 

[NextLevel]

Hi NL,

You might remember, some of the best moments of learning or discovery happen right when the camera is NOT rolling. It is completely OK. You have a great mental camera.

Nah, there is very little benefit to not recording anything other than that maybe you have a mindset that doesn't want to get recorded - this is hardly about social media, it is more about using data to make effective decisions. The human mind is a storyteller, it doesn't really tell fact from fiction, it just creates new stories to replace old stories. The camera doesn't lie, it gives you a chance to reframe a story with more evidence. That might not necessarily improve some people's TT, but for me, it has been very valuable so I don't make up too much stuff that hurts me when I am down, or flatters me too much when I am up. Obviously, one can make reasonable stories without hard data, especially with the help of a coach. But sometimes, even coaches and players can disagree about what is going on, and the camera is the best way to settle the self-awareness dispute. It's why some players can't bear to watch themselves, they can't stand that they don't look like Ma Long when their imagination says otherwise. In fact, I can do completely different strokes that look superficially the same. But it is only on camera I can tell they look the same. In my head, they feel very different. Such small changes can have huge effects on ball quality. Table tennis is technical like that. If you work with a coach that can use your footage to improve your strokes, your respect for video goes way up.

 

[Egon]

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Stroking gives you cred,
But don't forget your service too.
View attachment 25671

 

[NextLevel]

This video isn't technically detailed, but it is philosophically comprehensive. If one understands the philosophies and tools he gives you for improving your aim etc. and then gets a coach to teach your process and technique, good things will happen. There are some advanced things he doesn't discuss but you can't learn everything from one video.

 

[SleepyMaster]

Nah, there is very little benefit to not recording anything other than that maybe you have a mindset that doesn't want to get recorded - this is hardly about social media, it is more about using data to make effective decisions. The human mind is a storyteller, it doesn't really tell fact from fiction, it just creates new stories to replace old stories. The camera doesn't lie, it gives you a chance to reframe a story with more evidence. That might not necessarily improve some people's TT, but for me, it has been very valuable so I don't make up too much stuff that hurts me when I am down, or flatters me too much when I am up. Obviously, one can make reasonable stories without hard data, especially with the help of a coach. But sometimes, even coaches and players can disagree about what is going on, and the camera is the best way to settle the self-awareness dispute. It's why some players can't bear to watch themselves, they can't stand that they don't look like Ma Long when their imagination says otherwise. In fact, I can do completely different strokes that look superficially the same. But it is only on camera I can tell they look the same. In my head, they feel very different. Such small changes can have huge effects on ball quality. Table tennis is technical like that. If you work with a coach that can use your footage to improve your strokes, your respect for video goes way up.

I dont know, it doesn’t work the same for me. If I lose a point, I mostly know why it’s happening.

There is no point of the game, where I’m in frustration and didn’t understand why I’m losing. I don’t need a video to recognise my own mistakes. But I have a coach, and I’m myself a coach, so I’m analytical in the way of playing even when I don’t seeing it from aside. We all are different as a people, and as an athletes.

But if it works for you - then ofc keep doing it. As a players who’s willing to progress we should exploit all the tools that helping us in that way. Either it’s a video, or advices from a coach or someone else’s. All sources are good if they helping you to develop in a stronger player

It’s useful to do it time to time 100%

 

[NextLevel]

I dont know, it doesn’t work the same for me. If I lose a point, I mostly know why it’s happening.

There is no point of the game, where I’m in frustration and didn’t understand why I’m losing. I don’t need a video to recognise my own mistakes. But I have a coach, and I’m myself a coach, so I’m analytical in the way of playing even when I don’t seeing it from aside.

But if it works for you - then ofc keep doing it. As a players who’s willing to progress we should exploit all the tools that helping us in that way. Either it’s a video, or advices from a coach or someone else’s. All sources are good if they helping you to develop in a stronger player

It’s useful to do it time to time 100%

There are levels of knowledge like I said, and everyone explains something differently with different stories. So I understand what you are saying but it doesn't mean what you think it means, it probably speaks more to your confidence in your abilities than to your understanding.

 

[SleepyMaster]

There are levels of knowledge like I said, and everyone explains something differently with different stories. So I understand what you are saying but it doesn't mean what you think it means, it probably speaks more to your confidence in your abilities than to your understanding.

I’m trying to adapt during the game, rather then watching it after, and “oh my gosh, I should giving less long pushes”, or “I should initiate first”, “I should serve more shirt topspin’s serves to forehand”, “his serves and pushes is spiny I should loosen wrist and brush more”, etc - all this things and adjustments I make in my mind during the match in real time. I think this is the game of TT is about, who’s doing it better and with stability - mostly winning

When I play, I know what I need to do, the questions is - does I be able to play it in the right way, by my strongest sides, and execute the things that I need to execute with stability, or does my opp will be able to counter it

Confidence in my abilities and understanding what I need to do for a win, this is the same thing, from my point of view. It’s not some abstract esoteric stuff, aren’t it?

The only exception is when your opp is levels above you, then all your tries and strategies just didn’t working bc you are not from the same league. It’s like when I’m playing against coach, I can win some points but that’s it. Because he is technically better in everything. I can record it on a video 1000 times, and there will be nothing I can do about it.

 

[NextLevel]

I’m trying to adapt during the game, rather then watching it after, and “oh my gosh, I should giving less long pushes”, or “I should initiate first”, “I should serve more shirt topspin’s serves to forehand”, “his serves and pushes is spiny I should loosen wrist and brush more”, etc - all this things and adjustments I make in my mind during the match in real time. I think this is the game of TT is about, who’s doing it better and with stability - mostly winning

When I play, I know what I need to do, the questions is - does I be able to play it in the right way, by my strongest sides, and execute the things that I need to execute with stability or not, or does my opp will be able to counter it

It is hard to argue with the person who knows everything about what he should do so I will stop doing it.

 

[blahness]

Tonight I played at the club (weekly).
We have quite a full house, with me, captain (no 2), another member (no 3), my colleague, and also the best player from nearby town, along with others.
I played all of the above except my colleague.

I have been a bit more slack with the gym work (used to go at least 3 times a week, but last few weeks probably only twice a week + TT, which does not help with the super cold weather).

I beat cap and the no 3 player, and then I play the best player from nearby town. That player from nearby town is the one that was in the finals of our comp last month. He has been playing me more often last few weeks and tonight he beat me. My forehand was not working. I was unable to loop backspin balls consistently with it, and I can think of several reasons to blame (such as cold weather making my hands very cold, last match of the day so I am more tired and less focused, too focused on backhand and neglecting the fh), but none than myself that I need more practice to get the feeling back. Even before the match, in the warm up, I didn't feel I had it in the forehand loop feeling. A bit also to do with the mentality, I think normally in a match, I would try to calm myself down, but today I was quite negative about it all. I lost first set, then I got 3 sets back, but then I lost 3 sets after. The last set was 12-10 I lost.

His serves were mostly short topspin or super weak backspin, so I had to banana flick alot, and I am not getting bad results with it, but when I am not flicking, I push and then the ball pops up. I need to figure out better ways to deal with it, as even though it is good to flick, when I feel more tired, the flick % goes down. His serves are quite low, so even when I flick, it wasn't like an easy one, good thing is there is usually not much backspin. He also does the reverse spin short serve with the shovel action and I don't feel as comfortable receiving those than usual topspin serves. I still flick and it goes on but I am more scared of oit. Maybe I just need to go for it and not be scared?
I am just missing so much fh loops it is sad. I wonder if it is because I am prioritising my bh so it changes the way I stand.

I have the same feeling when I'm using way too much BH chiquita - the forearm gets tired and my %s goes down. I've been trying to implement upper body weight transfer as a power mechanism in the backhand chiquita too but it's still a work in progress. The idea is that you shift your upper body centre of gravity clockwise so that you end up leaning slightly over your right leg at the end. I found that it makes the chiquita physically easier for me at least. There's also the traditional BH flick which is not as tiring as the chiquita so there's that.

The other way that I can recommend to push these short topspins and no spin ish balls and not pop them up is the BH sidespin chopblock movement. The idea I got from Truls Moregardh - I think it's the only way you can push short against topspin balls. Basically push with a 90 deg racket angle and push it to the sides directly at an angle to the ball (for eg if ball is coming to you at 1 o clock your blade can maybe move towards 10 o clock direction). I'm also working on this a bit because D05 is a pain to push short with compared to Hurricane - I lost almost all of my FH short game when I switched to D05 fml. There's a TTD video recently with the Truls chopblock - he doesn't emphasize it but notice how he uses mostly the body to control and power it - not so much the arm.