Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[OldschoolPenholder]

Happy Friday TTD CCers!

Last night, club was packed. Lucky to hit with the woman from the night before as her partner took a break. Like previous night, we worked different aspects. In pushing with her, she has an understanding of angles and I believe she sees the same in my pushing game. I tried looping but couldn't find my stroke. Didn't force it as I didn't want her to pick up the ball more from my failed loops. A member was leaving and it was his net, so we took a break. I lent my net to another table.

"M2", a 2300 max SH player, hit with me next for 20 mins. He gave me a few tips on service, nothing I didn't know already, but i needed reminding. Serve long, serve short, serve to BH, serve to FH. Lately I've been concentrating too much on pendulum sidespin serve fast to BH (watched too much of He Zhi Men lately lol). Started varying the speeds and placement. Pushed a little and some pushes I was able to get the extreme angles. Lastly, worked on my short stroke loop. Getting a little more consistent but think i still don't "have" the stroke proper yet. Sorry phone is in repair shop, no video.

 

[Archosaurus]

My cross-steps feel a bit slow for what I can do in a fitness sense, so I took some video today.

My form gets a lot worse the less distance, and thus the slower I go. For wide backhand to wide forehand cross-steps, I think I'm pretty close to the limit of what I can do with my athleticism. I take off fast, get low on the landing and "brake" effectively.

On half-distance shots that are not one-step territory but aren't a huge distance away, the form kind of falls apart. I'm higher, it takes me longer to rotate around my leg and I don't brake as much. I think I will accelerate the speed I take those shots at and take the ball a little earlier so that I put more pressure on the opponent AND my cross-step form is more efficient with a better recovery.

On very wide shots, my recovery is pretty good and I'm in-position before the ball even hits the opponent's table, but I think there is a small window that can be abused on my half-distance cross-steps if the opponent is a good blocker. That needs to be plugged.

This will only get worse the faster and spinnier my shots and the faster and spinnier my opponents' shots get, so I think I will try to over-perform early, while I can.

 

[NextLevel]

My cross-steps feel a bit slow for what I can do in a fitness sense, so I took some video today.

My form gets a lot worse the less distance, and thus the slower I go. For wide backhand to wide forehand cross-steps, I think I'm pretty close to the limit of what I can do with my athleticism. I take off fast, get low on the landing and "brake" effectively.

On half-distance shots that are not one-step territory but aren't a huge distance away, the form kind of falls apart. I'm higher, it takes me longer to rotate around my leg and I don't brake as much. I think I will accelerate the speed I take those shots at and take the ball a little earlier so that I put more pressure on the opponent AND my cross-step form is more efficient with a better recovery.

On very wide shots, my recovery is pretty good and I'm in-position before the ball even hits the opponent's table, but I think there is a small window that can be abused on my half-distance cross-steps if the opponent is a good blocker. That needs to be plugged.

This will only get worse the faster and spinnier my shots and the faster and spinnier my opponents' shots get, so I think I will try to over-perform early, while I can.

I will give you $100 if you post video of any of this and it is anything close to correct. Most people have no clue what they are doing when they talk about forehand footwork. I usually tell people not to do it period unless they have a good coach.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

For the RPB my 2 cents would be to sort it out a coach who can show you the proper technique to do it without injuring your wrist or shoulder .

I am a dinosaur, i may not ever try the modern ph style. At least definitely won't try until i get my game back. I would need to learn the reverse bh/bh loop/bh block. Also, not used to the weight of the 2nd rubber. Lastly, grip is way different... i've tried the grip and i know my serves would be less effective WRT spin.

Now regarding the inconsistencies on your serve, frequently we try to solely focus on getting a quality, un returnable serve , I would say just take it a notch down to make it and focus on the third ball , you could even just focus on one serve in each practice game and just keep changing the degree of spin or placement till you get consistent on all the third ball possibilities and then move on to another serve variation even if it you are losing , also remember when playing an actual game where you are focusing on winning , the same serve does not work for everybody and against players who are have a better serve return its actually smarter to not serve so hard because the return might end up hurting more ..

SPOT ON! i've been watching and rewatching He Zhi Men. Although he's a pips player, I marvel at the speed and placement of his pendulum serves and have been focusing on unreturnable serves.

Carl mentioned the same thing re: serve/3rd ball in this thread or some other thread. I will keep that in mind as I've been focusing a tad much on acing my serves.

On the serve return part , which is the most difficult piece of the puzzle , one gentleman made an interesting observation while I was playing somebody 2000 + a couple of nights back, he said that whenever your opponents serve hits the net and you casually return it back you do it with more quality and consistency , but when the serve is good you tend to be too tight and that results into much lower hit rate , think over that if that helps you .. just passing on some wisdom from I got from a 2200 + sly old fox who plays with traditional japanese penhold with worn out tenergies and ankle high mountain boots and regularly manages to outfox opponents with subtle variations of spin and speed ...

I always need to remind myself to relax... to not put unforced stress on myself. Playing looser and calmer definitely helps.

Thank you ttmonster!!

 

[Archosaurus]

I will give you $100 if you post video of any of this and it is anything close to correct. Most people have no clue what they are doing when they talk about forehand footwork. I usually tell people not to do it period unless they have a good coach.

Well, I don't know what's correct because I'm not an expert nor have I been trained by an expert, so I couldn't say if you were cheating me out of the 100$ or not. I took a lot of video and had to delete some in-between, so I don't know if I have any fast steps saved, but I do have very slow ones. Might post them later: conversion process is a bit of a PITA.


How am I supposed to take wide forehand balls, then? By doing one-steps towards it, or just giving up entirely? Even if it's not correct, it has worked for me and I can move well without injuring myself or anything. I don't know what'd happen to my game if I just stopped cross-stepping entirely.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

By cross-step, do you mean your legs cross each other?

 

[Liten]

Osph: I always tell my trainingbuddy who doesent play RPB, if he would train it, he'd beat me easy as his reflexes are superior to mine from playing traditional ph bh for so long.

I say go for it while getting your level back up to your old standard.. mix it up.. be as unpredictable as you can be!

I found the guys at the club read me like an open book.. I really need to get more sneeky and less obvious. [emoji58]

 

[Archosaurus]

By cross-step, do you mean your legs cross each other?

1:36.

It's a big sideways step, and you rotate around the lead leg. However, I think NL is talking about this, most if not all un-coached people seem to do a hop instead, landing mostly on one leg with the rear-leg high. Timing's all messed up and it's real bad on the knees I'd imagine. That is exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

No promises, but I am curious about the modern PH style I do like watching Ma Lin and Wang Hao play (Liu Guo Liang also, but he has pips FH). Have not watched much of Xu Xin yet.

I would have to relearn the game with the BH strokes, the serves, adjust to modern grip (or vary between traditional grip and modern grip) and distance from table.

Osph: I always tell my trainingbuddy who doesent play RPB, if he would train it, he'd beat me easy as his reflexes are superior to mine from playing traditional ph bh for so long.

I say go for it while getting your level back up to your old standard.. mix it up.. be as unpredictable as you can be!

I found the guys at the club read me like an open book.. I really need to get more sneeky and less obvious. [emoji58]

 

[Liten]

No promises, but I am curious about the modern PH style I do like watching Ma Lin and Wang Hao play (Liu Guo Liang also, but he has pips FH). Have not watched much of Xu Xin yet.

I would have to relearn the game with the BH strokes, the serves, adjust to modern grip (or vary between traditional grip and modern grip) and distance from table.

Hey, you don't have to be done by the weekend... [emoji849][emoji6]

From what I see there is less stress on both your arm and your overall pace. The tradeoff is those balls hitting your fingers on the bh now and then..

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Thank you Archo. Due to my other training, I don't cross my legs. I would shuffle instead, but yeah, those wide shots may not be reached in time with the shuffling steps.

1:36.

It's a big sideways step, and you rotate around the lead leg. However, I think NL is talking about this, most if not all un-coached people seem to do a hop instead, landing mostly on one leg with the rear-leg high. Timing's all messed up and it's real bad on the knees I'd imagine. That is exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

 

[NextLevel]

Well, I don't know what's correct because I'm not an expert nor have I been trained by an expert, so I couldn't say if you were cheating me out of the 100$ or not. I took a lot of video and had to delete some in-between, so I don't know if I have any fast steps saved, but I do have very slow ones. Might post them later: conversion process is a bit of a PITA.


How am I supposed to take wide forehand balls, then? By doing one-steps towards it, or just giving up entirely? Even if it's not correct, it has worked for me and I can move well without injuring myself or anything. I don't know what'd happen to my game if I just stopped cross-stepping entirely.

Do a running forehand and chase the ball. On a more serious note, if you can get it right, go ahead and try. IT's just that the details are not easy to see when watching people and you need someone to walk you through it carefully or you can make a big mess of it, especially the timing of the backswing and the moving of the feet.

Compare that video to this one below - what do you notice?

 

[NextLevel]

So there is a guy at my club who has a 2500 coach. The coach has traveled though for a couple of months and in the past, the guy had worked with the two other main coaches at my club (me, I am a relative newbie to coaching). So he has decided to work with me (not sure how long it will last but hey, I am a coach). He said he wants to be able to beat me and to beat an older lefty at my club who plays heavy sidetopspins with his forehand (well, if you want to coach and you don't want to accept your students will one day beat you, or even encourage them to do so, especially if you have bad knees like myself, get out of coaching).

So the first thing I have worked on is fixing his block. He tends to block slow heavy topspins off the table (don't we all), but his problem is a common problem with students who were not taught to counterhit properly - they use lifting strokes to warm up their blocks and tend to lift heavy topspins off the table with upward motion in their blocks.

The other thing I have tried to do is to improve his serve motions, but primarily with the goal of introducing backspin vs. no-spin combinations. This is my strongest serving combination so it is one that I feel easily qualified to teach. IF you have a strong backspin serve and a decently similar no spin serve, you can get lots of free points or easy setups with the variation.

I have also been trying to work on my forehand and backhand technique but since Brett has left, I haven't had any systematic practice. My understand if my forehand technique has improved in subtle ways but I have not been able to consistently build it into my forehand yet.

I also signed up for the Butterfly Teams in November in Philadelphia. I have played extensively against all my teammates and we are all about the same playing strength with subtle differences in experience and skills so it is going to be a lot of fun.

 

[JeffM]

Haven't played TT for the last 8 days as I had an exam yesterday and today. Late afternoon, I had training with coach. While doing the multi-ball, I felt really unwell: chest pain, dizzy, out of breath, nauseous. Then I realise I have not eaten anything since lunch (the time was 7pm). Initially I was blaming it on my gap of not playing TT, but I think I probably had a hypo episode.. So much for learning to take care of others, I always forget to take care of myself. I didn't learn too much about TT today but more about taking care of myself.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

He said he wants to be able to beat me and to beat an older lefty at my club who plays heavy sidetopspins with his forehand (well, if you want to coach and you don't want to accept your students will one day beat you, or even encourage them to do so, especially if you have bad knees like myself, get out of coaching).

One of Life's Dilemmas! I'm not a coach, but there are aspects of my game that gives my partners challenges... I actually teach them what i know on how to overcome that challenge. So next time I play them it will force me to elevate my game. Hope your Student can help you improve!

The other thing I have tried to do is to improve his serve motions, but primarily with the goal of introducing backspin vs. no-spin combinations. This is my strongest serving combination so it is one that I feel easily qualified to teach. IF you have a strong backspin serve and a decently similar no spin serve, you can get lots of free points or easy setups with the variation.

One of my weaknesses is reading serves. 42andbackpains pointed out that i was the weakest player in the last Goon Squad NYC meet (UpsideDownCarlTurnsMeIGiveItUpInstinctively, Der_Echte and PingPongHolic) and that many many times during the doubles i was served nospin. On the flipside, I need to incorporate nospin serves into my game. Thank you for the reminder.

I also signed up for the Butterfly Teams in November in Philadelphia. I have played extensively against all my teammates and we are all about the same playing strength with subtle differences in experience and skills so it is going to be a lot of fun.

Very cool! Good luck and have fun!!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

It's easy to just get so wrapped up in an activity to neglect oneself of food and water. I'm a victim of that far too often. Take it easy, be sure it's just a lack of food and/or water before getting super physical again.

Good luck on exams/grades JeffM!

Haven't played TT for the last 8 days as I had an exam yesterday and today. Late afternoon, I had training with coach. While doing the multi-ball, I felt really unwell: chest pain, dizzy, out of breath, nauseous. Then I realise I have not eaten anything since lunch (the time was 7pm). Initially I was blaming it on my gap of not playing TT, but I think I probably had a hypo episode.. So much for learning to take care of others, I always forget to take care of myself. I didn't learn too much about TT today but more about taking care of myself.

 

[JeffM]

It's easy to just get so wrapped up in an activity to neglect oneself of food and water. I'm a victim of that far too often. Take it easy, be sure it's just a lack of food and/or water before getting super physical again.

Good luck on exams/grades JeffM!

Thanks OSP!
I am fairly sure it is lack of food and/or water, along with the extreme stress state that I was in for the last few days. Probably mutliple factors adding up. I did feel alot better once I had the chocolate bar in my stomach. Almost feel like a revived person.
Probably won't be doing an ECG on myself, maybe I will listen to my heart just in case...

 

[Archosaurus]

@NextLevel

When I didn't understand the cross-step in the slightest, I spent weeks analyzing it so I don't hurt myself, and tried to walk through the leg motion. I couldn't perform it right: my legs got all jumbled up and it wasn't in my system yet. I was in no rush to learn it then: my game didn't even need it nor would it benefit from it.

When I could kinda do it, I kept drilling it in slow motion until I started to understand the timing of the movement. Then when I could take off properly without any hiccups, I started "really" optimizing the movement to be good on the knees and be efficient.


My motion is not perfect in the slightest, but I'm competent. I can do it in an instant, without thinking about it, without tripping up or anything. I think I have a very good cross-step for a low 1000's player. I'm still improving it, namely to be faster in the reset and easier on the knees as much as possible. Thanks to it and my step around footwork, I can play more forehand than I probably am allowed to.


I understand where your concern comes from. It's perhaps one of the hardest movements that I've incorporated into my game: for some reason, the sideways hop and the rotating around the leg makes NO sense at all to a person's mind who doesn't know how to do it. It was quite challenging to learn even the basics of without a coach. If I hadn't taken it real slow I'd have hurt myself for sure.

Doing it absolutely correctly with optimal stroke timing is the real challenge. But I'm getting it slowly. My backswing is timed decently, at least.

 

[NextLevel]

By the way, some of you have noticed that I switched back to the Yasaka (Sweden) Extra. If you are wondering why, then I will clue you in. Guess what blade my opponent in this video is using (the rubbers are Tenergy 80 FX).

 

[NextLevel]

@NextLevel

When I didn't understand the cross-step in the slightest, I spent weeks analyzing it so I don't hurt myself, and tried to walk through the leg motion. I couldn't perform it right: my legs got all jumbled up and it wasn't in my system yet. I was in no rush to learn it then: my game didn't even need it nor would it benefit from it.

When I could kinda do it, I kept drilling it in slow motion until I started to understand the timing of the movement. Then when I could take off properly without any hiccups, I started "really" optimizing the movement to be good on the knees and be efficient.


My motion is not perfect in the slightest, but I'm competent. I can do it in an instant, without thinking about it, without tripping up or anything. I think I have a very good cross-step for a low 1000's player. I'm still improving it, namely to be faster in the reset and easier on the knees as much as possible. Thanks to it and my step around footwork, I can play more forehand than I probably am allowed to.


I understand where your concern comes from. It's perhaps one of the hardest movements that I've incorporated into my game: for some reason, the sideways hop and the rotating around the leg makes NO sense at all to a person's mind who doesn't know how to do it. It was quite challenging to learn even the basics of without a coach. If I hadn't taken it real slow I'd have hurt myself for sure.

Doing it absolutely correctly with optimal stroke timing is the real challenge. But I'm getting it slowly. My backswing is timed decently, at least.

Good to hear. Seeing is believing, ultimately, especially when you are involved.