Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

When you say light spin, do you mean serves that come back towards the net, or stop, but they don't really launch themselves back like heavy backspin does?

When you say no-spin, do you mean the serves that just kinda roll softly?

Yes. Yes. The latter doesn't have to roll softy. What I mean is that the rotation is insignificant so if you look closely, you can see the label.

 

[Archosaurus]

What has happened is that I either misread it as heavy backspin because of the serve motion

This is what I mean with being sure that it's heavy. Misreading it and playing a shot that is suited for heavy spin, because you believed it was heavy spin. Only to find out later that it was indeed not, and because you're now observing it more objectively and from 3rd person, it looks completely different as you can focus on the ball and you don't need to do anything to the serve.

That's what I mean with it being all in the head.

Even if you can read the spin off the ball to at least distinguish between no-spin and heavy spin, what if you actually doubt your own reading in the heat of the moment and act wrong even if you knew what was on the ball? It's important to instill paranoia into the opponent, is it not?

 

[NextLevel]

This is what I mean with being sure that it's heavy. Misreading it and playing a shot that is suited for heavy spin, because you believed it was heavy spin. Only to find out later that it was indeed not, and because you're now observing it more objectively and from 3rd person, it looks completely different as you can focus on the ball and you don't need to do anything to the serve.

That's what I mean with it being all in the head.

Even if you can read the spin off the ball to at least distinguish between no-spin and heavy spin, what if you actually doubt your own reading in the heat of the moment and act wrong even if you knew what was on the ball? It's important to instill paranoia into the opponent, is it not?

Yes, but saying that you make it look "heavy until it is too late" makes it seem as if you can make the no-spin ball look heavy, when it is really the serve motion that looks heavy. I was making sure you weren't as confused as your description of what was happening was. You still seem to be missing the point of my subtle distinction.

 

[Der_Echte]

Archos, NL is a very competent player a half level higher than me and knows what clues to look for. He has frequently stated in several threads his problems reading my serves, especially my light topspin variation.

He will tell you it is the different impact and consistent look alike serve motion that gets the job done.

Deceptive serves that are not hidden are all sales jobs.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[Der_Echte]

I define no spin serve as a serve with so little spin that the degree of spin on the ball is so little that it is essentially a no spin ball.

Of course a true no spin ball will have no spin on it after it bounces of opponent side.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[Archosaurus]

Well, not even the best server can make a no-spin ball look heavy. For obvious reasons.

I guess what I'm saying is kinda redundant: because whatever effect I'm describing will come about just from the deceptive serve motion.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

This sounds so zen-like!

I define no spin serve as a serve with so little spin that the degree of spin on the ball is so little that it is essentially a no spin ball.

Of course a true no spin ball will have no spin on it after it bounces of opponent side.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[ttmonster]

Difference between theoretical and practical ... the operative word here is "look heavy to the opponent" .

Well, not even the best server can make a no-spin ball look heavy. For obvious reasons.

I guess what I'm saying is kinda redundant: because whatever effect I'm describing will come about just from the deceptive serve motion.

 

[NextLevel]

Archos, NL is a very competent player a half level higher than me and knows what clues to look for. He has frequently stated in several threads his problems reading my serves, especially my light topspin variation.

He will tell you it is the different impact and consistent look alike serve motion that gets the job done.

Deceptive serves that are not hidden are all sales jobs.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

And there are many different ways to sell - in fact, you never know which sales jobs work best until you find the customer. I sometimes fail to fool people with my highest level deceptive serves, but I fool them with a very trivial fake that I couldn't fool my mother with and which Brett would lock me up and throw away the key for marketing as decent technique. Girl returning all my backspin and no spin forehand serves properly, but when I served basic no spin long into her forehand and backhand with downward fake motion after the serve, she looped it off the table.

 

[Shuki]

NL, it's all in their head, isn't it?

Tell me, have you ever looked back at video footage of yourself popping up a serve that you were sure was heavy, but it's clearly not heavy on the video? That's what I mean with "looking heavy".

It's all in their head...



Won't this just end up in them reading the ball CORRECTLY if they don't read it closely?

okay imagine you're doing bh-bh practice. you toss the ball up and serve, but during the serve you slice the ball at contact with the normal follow through. they wouldn't recieve the normal topspin bh-bh serve that they were expecting. therefore, no acceleration change needed to produce the dead ball.

 

[Shuki]

Never happened to me before. What has happened is that I either misread it as heavy backspin because of the serve motion, or I see the no spin but I don't use the right return. But I have never looked at a no-spin ball closely and thought it was a heavy backspin ball. Never.

+1

What has happened to me though, is off the table choppers "like in my video" will produce a no spin ball which I only realize is no-spin at the last second and mess up my return. But I never see that no-spin ball and think throughout it's entire flight that it was heavy.

 

[Shuki]

Shuki's technique on the serves is clearly much worse. Decent rally strokes but it's mostly badly placed control stuff even on relatively easy balls. Gotta move the opponent around more on the easy balls!

Completely agree that my service technique isn't too good. Especially since I've practiced serves a total of <30min in my life. All serve practice comes from in game trying things out.

Thank you for the compliment on "decent rally strokes" but from what you saw I would disagree with this too. I put almost no power in my rally strokes as I'm just trying to control the ball and get him to move back close to the table again. His balls are surprisingly much more deceptive than you'd think. I still think I played him marginally well for a 1750 going against a 2000+.

But there's lots to work on.
One thing I've noticed in recent recordings which I THOUGHT I fixed, is that I still have my "super cocked wrist". I think it's a bit better but still very noticable.

 

[NextLevel]

Completely agree that my service technique isn't too good. Especially since I've practiced serves a total of <30min in my life. All serve practice comes from in game trying things out.

Thank you for the compliment on "decent rally strokes" but from what you saw I would disagree with this too. I put almost no power in my rally strokes as I'm just trying to control the ball and get him to move back close to the table again. His balls are surprisingly much more deceptive than you'd think. I still think I played him marginally well for a 1750 going against a 2000+.

But there's lots to work on.
One thing I've noticed in recent recordings which I THOUGHT I fixed, is that I still have my "super cocked wrist". I think it's a bit better but still very noticable.

Sometimes, you have to realize that part of the reason why an opponent can be deceptive with a ball is because relative to what he is used to, your ball isn't overwhelming him.

For example, if you serve long to a chopper or defensive player, it is easier for them to float the ball or dig into the ball and you can't tell which effectively because your serve is not that dominating. But if you attack a chopper hard with the first ball after they return your serve while they are backing up to chop, you can be 98% sure that the chopper is giving you a float ball because he could not dig into the ball.

Power, spin or lack there of (Variation) and placement to make the chopper move uncomfortably while he is trying to chop properly etc. are required to take the chopper apart. If you just consistently loop with control to a chopper, he gets into a rhythm and bringing him in short with a block is not enough - you need to bring him in short with your loops sometimes.

But the bottom line is that you can get weak balls if you take the risk to overpower a chopper with either heavy spin or raw power so that you can get a higher and floatier ball to put away.

 

[Shuki]

Sometimes, you have to realize that part of the reason why an opponent can be deceptive with a ball is because relative to what he is used to, your ball isn't overwhelming him.

For example, if you serve long to a chopper or defensive player, it is easier for them to float the ball or dig into the ball and you can't tell which effectively because your serve is not that dominating. But if you attack a chopper hard with the first ball after they return your serve while they are backing up to chop, you can be 98% sure that the chopper is giving you a float ball because he could not dig into the ball.

Power, spin or lack there of (Variation) and placement to make the chopper move uncomfortably while he is trying to chop properly etc. are required to take the chopper apart. If you just consistently loop with control to a chopper, he gets into a rhythm and bringing him in short with a block is not enough - you need to bring him in short with your loops sometimes.

But the bottom line is that you can get weak balls if you take the risk to overpower a chopper with either heavy spin or raw power so that you can get a higher and floatier ball to put away.

Very informative, thank you. So much to table tennis that there is to learn and you've just given me another piece to the never ending puzzle.

He's a chopper often against me, but against quite a few other's he's very aggressive. He's not aggressive with me because if I'm expecting aggression from him I counter his loops/drives very well. What he actually struggles with the most surprisingly, is high level antispin/long pips. He gives a lot of weird stuff and when his weird stuff comes back he gets confused.

He has a passion for the game as you can tell by his yelling and antics and is quite fun. I learn a lot talking to him as his english isn't very good and I'm proficient in Vietnamese.


THIS NEXT PART I WANT YOU ALL TO READ BECAUSE THIS IS THE DREAM PERSONALITY FOR A TABLE TENNIS PLAYER IN MY EYES. YES CAPITAL LETTERS MEANS I'M YELLING

He's the most enjoyable player for me to watch play, looks elegant when he gets going. like a noodle. I once asked him why he always wears jeans when he plays, to which he responded "I come from work, I have shorts but changing into them would take away from time playing ping pong"

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

The guy who has showed me more about reading spin and deceptive serves--if you didn't already know, that is Mark Croitoroo--showed me how, if you serve with very light backspin, and the serve is low, short and fast (not an easy combination) you can make it stay low and bounce much more like it is heavier backspin.

I try. I'm not that great at that. But it is cool when he does it. Because it does look a lot like it has more backspin unless you really are paying attention.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[NextLevel]

The guy who has showed me more about reading spin and deceptive serves--if you didn't already know, that is Mark Croitoroo--showed me how, if you serve with very light backspin, and the serve is low, short and fast (not an easy combination) you can make it stay low and bounce much more like it is heavier backspin.

I try. I'm not that great at that. But it is cool when he does it. Because it does look a lot like it has more backspin unless you really are paying attention.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Yes, but some opponents can use the backspin against you because they can dig into the ball more (or at least enough) to make the light backspin heavy. That is much harder with real no spin.

In the end, your customer matters a lot.

 

[Archosaurus]

@OldSchoolPenholder

I wouldn't really use a pendulum motion for fast no-spin serves. I'd do something like this, and change it at the very last moment: they won't see it before they see the ball anyway.

EDIT: Oops! Posted this in the wrong thread: tabbed in to the wrong one.

Well, I think you know what I'm talking about.

 

[Shuki]

@OldSchoolPenholder

I wouldn't really use a pendulum motion for fast no-spin serves. I'd do something like this, and change it at the very last moment: they won't see it before they see the ball anyway.

EDIT: Oops! Posted this in the wrong thread: tabbed in to the wrong one.

Well, I think you know what I'm talking about.

Odd, when I want to serve very fast I have my racquet face like this. Never thought about why, I also couldn't figure out for the life of me why I couldn't do a fast serve with my forehand and the racquet face in a normal position. This cleared it up. Thanks for the post.

 

[thekleifheit13]

But there's lots to work on.
One thing I've noticed in recent recordings which I THOUGHT I fixed, is that I still have my "super cocked wrist". I think it's a bit better but still very noticable.

Shuki, do you think the cocked wrist is still due to a lack of strength in your wrist? Or is it a motor habit that creeps into your game from time to time? You're much better than I am, and it doesn't seem like the cocked wrist hurts your technique, but using your passive tissues - tendons and ligaments - could give you some health trouble down the road. Does it feel like you're holding your wrist stable with the muscles of your forearm or are you bouncing off of the connective tissue?

 

[Shuki]

Shuki, do you think the cocked wrist is still due to a lack of strength in your wrist? Or is it a motor habit that creeps into your game from time to time? You're much better than I am, and it doesn't seem like the cocked wrist hurts your technique, but using your passive tissues - tendons and ligaments - could give you some health trouble down the road. Does it feel like you're holding your wrist stable with the muscles of your forearm or are you bouncing off of the connective tissue?

I feel as though that wrist position is completely natural, I have to strain it the other way to make it look more "correct"

I see where it. Asked my game worse in quite a few ways too. Sure some things are easier like a forehand fading to the opponents deep backhand. Opponents find it difficult to diagnose when I'm going to the backhand with my loop and I'm told it's because of my wrist.

Who knows. I forced it the "right" way for a while and it really hurt, eventually I thought I had it fixed. Guess not though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk