Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

I dunno about this. I used to believe in stuff like this too, but from coaching (not TT) and analyzing my own play in TT, I've noticed that people who have this problem usually have some key technical blindspot that isn't being paid attention to.

Granted if all your sets go to 10-12 then maybe it's just a matter of learning to win at deuce.

There is definitely something about this I agree with.

 

[kindof99]

Recently i am looking a bit more into the use of the fingers during the FH loop / counterloop to make spin production even more efficient (for eg. when people BH punch the ball down the line and you dont wanna give up the close table)

So with BH i have the 2 finger method (side of thumb pressing on right side of the Fh rubber and index finger tip pressing on left side of BH rubber to create the double lever arm which creates the rotational moment) which works really well for me at the moment, but on the FH side it is just too slow (ie i get good spin but the time to activate the spin is too long)

So based on some experimentation, i came up with a possibly better method.

So the problem with FH is that the bat needs to be stable, so there needs to be a stable pivot point, i found out that the 5th and 4th fingers can fulfill this role better than the thumb. So during contact they need to be active to stabilize the bat while the thumb and index finger do their work in initiating, they cant be inactive.

With the thumb, i realised something cool - i could start with the side of the thumb touching the FH rubber, and then end with the base of the thumb touching and gripping the rubber on the left side which also is important in stabilizing the bat face. This rotation of the thumb contact with the rubber also coincides with the forearm pronation force so contributes to the rotational moment, in addition to the side of the index finger pressing on the BH rubber. This way, the base surface of thumb can also 'hold' the bat steady during contact when there are quite large forces/acceleration coming from the lower body.

This is quite a bit different to badminton where for the FH shots the thumb is the pivot point, while the index finger together with the 3rd,4th,5th fingers produces the lever arm forces.

Will test this out later in the week when i play next.

Isn't this basically how you use your index and thumb for spinning? Holding one and moving another one? Using these two fingers on backhand is particularly good for receive with consistence. My feeling is that the moving fingers in harmony with the body and forearm movement is particularly important and will surprise you all the time for power and consistence.

 

[Archosaurus]

There is definitely something about this I agree with.

You should check if you have a fever. LOL.


Had a session today, some drills and practice matches. No video as usual, but I'm pissed I didn't get any. I was really ripping cracking shots today. I don't know why I can't make shots like that against my wednesday partner, but I don't think he is giving me a return that's exactly the same so I'll need to pay attention and maybe some day get permission for some footage.

One shot against a half-long popup in particular stands out; I felt like I delayed the swing just a little bit more than usual and sprung into it more explosively, something that just recently I would have definitely rushed and probably failed at. It's still a low % shot but they're starting to come out in matches now which is huge for me.

I also bought a size smaller shorts than I wore on that last video, it felt a bit like wearing a plastic bag. These are running shorts so not super ideal, I wouldn't mind if they were even more flexible, but I kinda need pockets, so it's fine. I can go low and wide enough, my fitness is the main obstacle for that anyway.

Are there any good TT shorts with pockets? Zipper ideally but even open is fine.

 

[jonol]

There is definitely something about this I agree with.

To an extent I do, but I've also found it's not always a technical issue or error, but more the mentality you're approaching the match with.

I've been working a lot recently on playing with clear intent to build a winning point in the first 3-4 shots. It's a lot less to do with technical improvements, and more about finding the right level of commitment to shots and looking to play with strong placement and spin, rather than playing for safety or trying to overpower the opponent before building the right opportunity for a winner.

 

[Archosaurus]

To an extent I do, but I've also found it's not always a technical issue or error, but more the mentality you're approaching the match with.

I've been working a lot recently on playing with clear intent to build a winning point in the first 3-4 shots. It's a lot less to do with technical improvements, and more about finding the right level of commitment to shots and looking to play with strong placement and spin, rather than playing for safety or trying to overpower the opponent before building the right opportunity for a winner.

I can't say for TT because I don't have the experience, but FWIW in performance driving coaching, I have never met any beginner or intermediate amateur who has a primary mindset problem and not a technical issue if their performance doesn't seem to be consistent or high quality enough compared to their apparent abilities. I've never talked with a semi-pro or lower level pro driver and they've mentioned anything about a mindset problem either. A funding problem is 100 times more likely LOL.

Outside of things you can't help by training like not having money for equipment that your competitors have, it's always been a technical issue in my experience and usually something they're averse to psychologically which is why it might seem like a mental thing. People also tell themselves things like "I'm bad at X" and they get into the idea that it's something innate to them, when all it really needs is a few coaching sessions.

I have heard of "mindset problems" at the very elite pro level, and in that sport a lot of it has to do with not wanting to die in the real car by driving it like they can in the sim.

 

[jonol]

Well, the two problems aren't mutually exclusive.

Many players have the technical skill to hit great shots. Such as players who can hit 80-90% of their spinny openers in practice, but are not comfortable committing to them in matches, or in tight situations.

I see that as primarily to do with their approach and mentality to the game, not something fixed by working on adjustments to technique.

 

[blahness]

Isn't this basically how you use your index and thumb for spinning? Holding one and moving another one? Using these two fingers on backhand is particularly good for receive with consistence. My feeling is that the moving fingers in harmony with the body and forearm movement is particularly important and will surprise you all the time for power and consistence.

No, this is a significant upgrade over the typical method because both fingers are involved in generating the rotational force not just 1. I learnt this finger 'secret' from Ti Long a long time back for the BH loop. So both the index finger and thumb work together (they are on opposite sides of the 'see saw'). You have to try it out.

After learning this, my BH was almost unjammable because i literally just needed to use the fingers to drive the supination of the forearm to create very heavy topspin. No need for whatever legs, bending down or body rotation etc... Obviously if im in position and was able to use my body the shot would have even higher quality so it was very flexible.

I basically built an entire BH system of play based on this.

My problems were more with my FH, I could get quite good 'BH dominance' along the diagonal and even centre but when people switch it down the line aggressively my FH cant keep up because the FH stroke just not as fast as my BH. If I just did a big counterloop it was quite hit and miss, but if I did a flatter counter it was not stable enough and also not threatening enough. So I needed to know how to upgrade the FH topspin generation so i can literally do the same as my BH ie generate massive topspin just with the fingers and a super small stroke (with everything else being a bonus).

 

[Archosaurus]

Well, the two problems aren't mutually exclusive.

Many players have the technical skill to hit great shots. Such as players who can hit 80-90% of their spinny openers in practice, but are not comfortable committing to them in matches, or in tight situations.

I see that as primarily to do with their approach and mentality to the game, not something fixed by working on adjustments to technique.

I think that's where we disagree; if you can't hit it in matches but you think you can hit it in practice, then you DON'T have that skill. You have some skills, but it's not that exact one that you're missing.

Maybe you're a killer when it comes to low balls to your wide forehand, but if the ball is a bit higher or a bit more to the backhand side, then your consistency gets halved. It can be fixed with training against that actual shot, not by meditating and pep talks. Well, those might help too.

It would be a mistake IMO to think you can do it but it's "just my mentality bro" when there is probably some other steps you need to take before you really have it. Chances are if you simulate that ball in training you'll also miss against it a lot, especially if it's in a random drill.

I think the reason is just unrealistic training. Not practising the actual real shots that are missed in the game, where the ball comes back differently. Maybe trying to implement it too quickly into match play before simulated match scenarios have been drilled.

Related: https://www.facebook.com/hudog2103/...n-make-the-difference-betw/28394427866892896/
Related:

I could have sworn I'd seen Fang Bo say something similar too, but I won't be able to find that video.

 

[jonol]

At this point are we even talking about the same thing? Not sure where you got meditation and pep talks from.

At this point I pretty much expect that you'll find a way to misunderstand other posters in the most long-winded manner possible, so I agree to disagree

 

[kindof99]

No, this is a significant upgrade over the typical method because both fingers are involved in generating the rotational force not just 1. I learnt this finger 'secret' from Ti Long a long time back for the BH loop. So both the index finger and thumb work together (they are on opposite sides of the 'see saw'). You have to try it out.

After learning this, my BH was almost unjammable because i literally just needed to use the fingers to drive the supination of the forearm to create very heavy topspin. No need for whatever legs, bending down or body rotation etc... Obviously if im in position and was able to use my body the shot would have even higher quality so it was very flexible.

I basically built an entire BH system of play based on this.

My problems were more with my FH, I could get quite good 'BH dominance' along the diagonal and even centre but when people switch it down the line aggressively my FH cant keep up because the FH stroke just not as fast as my BH. If I just did a big counterloop it was quite hit and miss, but if I did a flatter counter it was not stable enough and also not threatening enough. So I needed to know how to upgrade the FH topspin generation so i can literally do the same as my BH ie generate massive topspin just with the fingers and a super small stroke (with everything else being a bonus).

Most of the time, a loose grip to a tense grip change at the contact with attention to fingers is all you need for a compact stroke on the forehand.

 

[Archosaurus]

At this point are we even talking about the same thing? Not sure where you got meditation and pep talks from.

At this point I pretty much expect that you'll find a way to misunderstand other posters in the most long-winded manner possible, so I agree to disagree

You'll understand some day probably. I understand exactly what you're writing, seen it a million times.

 

[blahness]

Most of the time, a loose grip to a tense grip change at the contact with attention to fingers is all you need for a compact stroke on the forehand.

Yes this general principle is correct, but where exactly do you apply pressure and how does it contribute, is the key item here. Some ways are a lot less efficient than others. And in real matches, every bit of efficiency helps a lot because real opponents are always jamming you and making you out of position.

 

[Tyce]

I think my problem is mostly just taking too much time to switch on and play sharp. I have a pretty limited amount of time to play, 2x a week max, and that's including the matches.
I've been called "the diesel" since juniors for that and now I'm a diesel with the stamina of a middle aged guy, so when I hit the point of being properly switched on, I'm just a few games away from sputtering out.

So rather than having to go through the phases I always tend to go through, practicing my match mentality switch should at least have a little bit of an effect. And yes, they have been mostly 2-3 in sets and 9-11 in points.

Basically, there's two perspectives to work on. Increase your top level, and increase your base level. Increasing the top level is not my current focus, I've got enough of it to win much more than I do now. It's the wasted points, silly mistakes, not getting to the right plan quickly enough, playing too loose, that's easily costing me 2 or 3 points per game. Clawing back after 0-2 in sets is too risky, I can't just rely on my diesel to turn on eventually and finding the magic button to turn it all around. So I need to change that, so I need to practice that.

 

[jk1980]

Silly mistakes are only silly after you commited them. For me doing a serve mistake is not a silly mistake. Sure, i could tell myself after missing the serve long that i should have used a short serve, but if you asked me before commiting the mistake i would tell you that there is no reason to beliece that i would serve out of the table.

For me it is sometimes the believe go have spotted some weakness in the opponents game that lets me gain more easily and i switch to a mofe unfavourable style to get "easy" points instead of just playing my game and pressuring the opponent with what i know how to do. it's really an easy "cheat" code to lure me into pushing battles, especially when i lose confidence into my backhand loop i will start to push only with backhand and from there it is very hard to get active again.

The funny thing is that i know exactly where this "right leg infront just push stuff back" stance comes and it so deeply ingrained that i can not get rid of it completely. I started table tennis in a cellar with old people who play for 20 or 30 years but many never learned a proper topspin and these guys are where i mirrored this stupid "just bring the ball onto the table" defender style standing with the right foot infront.

 

[Denso]

Are there any good TT shorts with pockets? Zipper ideally but even open is fine.

I swear by the "Adidas Workout Essentials Base Woven Shorts". These are great, they have a zipper and pockets for a whole lot of balls, and enough room for your own ;-)

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[Archosaurus]

I swear by the "Adidas Workout Essentials Base Woven Shorts". These are great, they have a zipper and pockets for a whole lot of balls, and enough room for your own ;-)

​

What is the material like? Stretchy and light or more outdoorsy?

 

[Denso]

What is the material like? Stretchy and light or more outdoorsy?

The material is light, breathable, but not really stretchy

 

[dingyibvs]

I swear by the "Adidas Workout Essentials Base Woven Shorts". These are great, they have a zipper and pockets for a whole lot of balls, and enough room for your own ;-)

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I'd recommend shorter, tighter shorts. When I wear longer, looser shorts I tend to hit the shorts when I'm loading up for a BH stroke sometimes. Even a tiny brush against your shorts can throw off the timing. I'd wear them sometimes for practice, but for match play I always wear shorter, tighter ones.