Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

NL, Carl, what do you think is better if you had to choose:

Well disguised, very varying serves with lower spin producing harder but more consistent chances to attack and win, or:

heavier serve variations producing either straight out nets or high popups with a higher chance to win when attacked BUT also easier to read?

Does it depend on the opponent? How well I am playing? How consistently I can serve the heavy spins? This is assuming probably a mid 1000's level of play or so, where people will really heavily punish fast, long serves that would eat up lower players. So no serving to ace like you do against low level players.

OSPH said it best - both are important, though either in isolation can be effective at lower levels, the first requiring strong rally game and the second requiring an extremely good third ball game. The higher the level of opponent though, the higher the level of spin they can control and attack so you have to be able to make heavy spin appear less heavy than it actually is and light spin heavier than it is and then your spin variations can be more successful. That is why my backspin serve is so effective as well as DerEchte's serves. It's not that the spin is absolutely heavy (it is heavy though), but more that you have to convince yourself that it is as heavy as it actually is because neither of us use large serving motions. And my backspin serve sets up my no spin serve as if you push with the same motion, the light topspin on my no-spin serve sends your ball into the sky.

 

[NextLevel]

So serving heavy backspin and no-spin with the same motion, is generally better than alternating between light backspin and light topspin?

Assuming that the serves are hard to read for people around your own level.

Light backspin and topspin will be attacked with the same motion by better players with high levels of success because most players will overpower such spins. The one thing that helps if you serve light spin is keeping the ball very low but that then means you have to be ready to rally.

Contrast in spin while making the serves look similar is more important for forcing errors as you can provoke similar returns.

Here is a mixed backspin and topspin serving session. You can see how much the topspin balls kick after the first bounce on the other side. In a match though, some people don't see these things. Those are my customers .

 

[Archosaurus]

Just to clarify about long serves, I'm not talking about not doing them. I've developed my "rocket serve" and no-spin serve (Those are great into the elbow) but they will only work if they can't see it coming. Even at the highest level it works, so why wouldn't it work at a lower level?

The prerequisite is just that you don't exclusively serve like that, but keep them guessing, right?

From what I understand, what you're saying is that you're not really trying to cause mis-reads as much as you're trying to make the opponent doubt their reads?

 

[NextLevel]

Just to clarify about long serves, I'm not talking about not doing them. I've developed my "rocket serve" and no-spin serve (Those are great into the elbow) but they will only work if they can't see it coming. Even at the highest level it works, so why wouldn't it work at a lower level?

The prerequisite is just that you don't exclusively serve like that, but keep them guessing, right?

From what I understand, what you're saying is that you're not really trying to cause mis-reads as much as you're trying to make the opponent doubt their reads?

Sometimes, an opponent cannot return a serve. Some people fail to see that and want to be versatile. If an opponent can't return a serve, use it until they start returning it. If they do, they will usually be giving you something you can exploit if you have a serving combo designed take advantage of their adjustment. All points count towards winning.

 

[Boogar]

Just to clarify about long serves, I'm not talking about not doing them. I've developed my "rocket serve" and no-spin serve (Those are great into the elbow) but they will only work if they can't see it coming. Even at the highest level it works, so why wouldn't it work at a lower level?

The prerequisite is just that you don't exclusively serve like that, but keep them guessing, right?

From what I understand, what you're saying is that you're not really trying to cause mis-reads as much as you're trying to make the opponent doubt their reads?

I know a lot of good players who serve long. But with tons of spin and very good placement those are very hard to attack and if you just push them back you will get destroyed. I am just now starting to grasp how to attack long serves, but its so hard and I miss more than i win with it.

 

[NextLevel]

Here is Larry Hodges on the topic of serving combinations:

http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/2028

 

[Der_Echte]

This one is for DerEchte - it is an example of why it is good to have a good backspin serve vs. long pips players.

A lot of stuff also depends on the heaviness of the backspin and how similar the serves look.

DerEchte has a really nasty combination of similar looking serves that are all heavier than they seem to be. I still can't read his topspin serve for the life of me and you can see it in my matches when I play him that I am just fighting to get the ball on the table because of that and I often net his backspin serve.

NL frequently hits upon what is strategically important to be able to do on serve (and on follow up) For me, it is being able to show really heavy underspin early, then pull out the rug.

When you pull out the rug, it simply MUST look the same or it is like drinking cola with no fizz.

The severe (at lower to mid levels) spin variation is cash money. The variation at a higher level simply avoids you getting crushed on 2nd ball.

Still, if you have very little variation, it is difficult to gain an advantage from serve.

If your serves look all alike in motion and first bounce, but have variation, you are going to create good opportunities for yourself.

Serving is all about creating an immediate offensive advantage.

Isn't a Rambo Attacker like me fit to take advantage of that?

 

[Archosaurus]

I somehow think that if you have a serve that your opponent just simply can't return at all in under 3 tries or so, then you're higher level than them and you'll beat them just playing your normal game. Is that wrong, and at the lower level, there's some serves that people just have problems with?

This is assuming that you're not cheating heavily on the serve, and assuming that not being able to return a cheated serve/having a tricky serve doesn't immediately constitute a huge level difference.

Although I would have to argue that having a serve that your opponent can't deal with at all constitutes a level difference. However, both can have such serves, so in that case, it's just about serving that serve, isn't it?

Here is Larry Hodges on the topic of serving combinations:

http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/2028

Hahah, this:

"Deep sidespin to backhand (so it breaks right), then reverse pendulum short to forehand (so it breaks left). This is a more specific variation of the one above."

is my favorite combo nowadays, because I'm developing my reverse pendulum.

I've done:

"Serve from wide forehand diagonally to the short forehand, then fake the same serve but go deep down the line to the backhand."

with my backhand but I'm gonna have to try that out with the forehand.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

"Be quick to learn and wise to know."
~George Burns

Last night, I was able to be a sponge and soak up some quick learning ... was wise to know to just listen.

------------------------------------------------

"R." and USATT Hall of Famer, George "Chief" Braithwaite (http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-Tennis/History/Hall-of-Fame/Profiles/George-Braithwaite), finished on a table... think they worked out for 3 hrs! Chief is 81 yrs young and still going strong!! Looks like he's rated 1800 now, but think about it...81 yrs old and he still has a respectable rating!

"M2", a 2300 player, hits with me from time to time and said to me, "Let's go hit at that empty table".

Earlier last night, I played 2 matches. It was going to be one of those nights ... i couldn't find the table! My shots were all over... even my trusty FH missed! I knew this was going to be one of those nights. Earlier in the day, I had a positive attitude and looking forward to hitting/playing. Get to the club, it's packed. Waited briefly and played a gentleman I've lost to 2x before. He has illegal serves which I don't call him out for. Heavy sidespin serves which I generally 'eat'.

Weds night, I played him, I lost in 4 or 5. Despite the loss, felt happy that I made some 2nd ball loop winners. Last night, lost 3 straight, under 5. He served way less to my FH. I had a few sidespin serves which broke on him last second and he misjudged. He popped up some of my serves and i went into HULK SMASH mode and smashed it right into his racket and he returned it! I smashed again to his BH and miraculously he returned that and caught me off guard. One of those nights LOLZ

"K." played him next, and won. I've posted my match video with K from Monday night, we generally have close games, but he usually beats me to win the matches. Last night, with NextLevel's advice in mind, I added in nospin and short serves into my game.

Guess what? Lost 3 straight all under 5, last game at 2. Nothing was working! Just one of those kinds of nights LOLZ

So I hit with M2 at a table where Chief and R. (who has a coach's eye) resting on the side and watching and joking with M2. From time to time, Chief and R would offer advice. THANKFUL FOR THEIR TIME AND ADVICE ON LOOPS AND SERVES! He clearly saw nothing was working for me and tried to get me out of the funk. Also thankful for M2's time in hitting with me.

After hitting for 20 mins or so with M2, I put my racket away and sat down next to Chief and chatted for a few mins. Saw Chief last year at Wang Chen's club ... didn't see him in 30+ yrs! Last year, he didn't remember me from the 1980's Chinatown firehouse club, but we chatted about some of the members and he recalled them all. Last night, we chatted about those old members and he told me Horace, the chopper, 80 yrs old, is in the hospital Knee surgery... once he recovers from that, he has to have his other knee operated on

Chief told me Rey Domingo, in the 1980's, he was a 2400 or so player, is still playing, but not in tournaments. George Cameron, 2200 or so, still plays locally in NJ but not tournaments. He talked about Serves with me. Great chats and great reminiscing!

[/old man rambling] LOLZ

 

[Shuki]

I have a very large roll of edgetape, so I wrapped about 10 grams of it around my handle on my racquet to weigh it down. Played way better/lighter, I could finally move it around ^.^

Question time for if you like a lighter weight blade. I'm under the impression that GENERALLY heavier blades have better playing characteristics compared to lighter blades of the same model. Do you think buying a heavier blade with the intention of weighing the handle down to make it play lighter is better than just straight up buying a lighter blade?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Do you think buying a heavier blade with the intention of weighing the handle down to make it play lighter is better than just straight up buying a lighter blade?

It is interesting how extra weight in the handle makes the blade feel lighter. [emoji2]

The question for you Shuki is, what weight is manageable. There is this balance between weight giving better playing characteristics and more inertia behind the ball and recovery speed still being fast enough. When the blade starts compromising recover time, it starts being too heavy for YOU but may still be fine for someone else.

My blade, last time it was weighed naked was 91 grams. But I think it has gained a little weight. The complete setup I have now is 199.5 grams. I think when MX-P was on my blade it was over 200 grams total weight.

Recently I hit with the Banda Waldner blade that Liten sent me. I think that blade is close to 100 grams. To me, it felt fine. I am in decent shape. And to me 100 grams actually felt like a fine weight. But everyone I had try the Banda said it was heavy. They liked how it felt. Because it feels awesome. But they felt it was a bit on the heavy side.

A few people I had try my V+ to compare weight and they said they could handle the weight of the V+ but not the Banda. But my recovery with the Banda was totally fine.

So the question for you is: did your regular blade with the extra weight in the handle feel like the right weight, too heavy, or like you could even go heavier.

The weight you can handle without negative impact on your recovery speed, in my opinion, is what will most likely, best serve your needs.

Does that make sense. The high end of that weight might be different for Der_Echte than for Archo: different size, strength and training regimen. So, ideally you would find a weight you can handle.

Another thing to know, if you play for long enough with a 90 gram blade, then shifting up to a 95 gram blade is not so difficult. If you played with 95 grams for a while, 100 grams may start feeling good. Training, over time will make you stronger.


Sent from Inside The Chamber of Secrets by Patronus

 

[Archosaurus]

Well, a lot's at play, I'd say.

Strength for one: I know my blade has been feeling lighter and lighter.

However I'd have to wager that stroke technique and length of arms proportionally also play a big part. The blade won't feel as heavy close to your body as it does far away, obviously. Longer arms and a longer stroke facilitate more rotational inertia.


Personally, judging by my experience in other things like this: go a bit heavier than normal and inch up on your ideal weight. The heavier you can go with the same rate of recovery, the better, basically. But you can't just make the jump without losing recovery speed unless you're playing a severely under-weight blade.

 

[JeffM]

Weds night, I played him, I lost in 4 or 5. Despite the loss, felt happy that I made some 2nd ball loop winners. Last night, lost 3 straight, under 5. He served way less to my FH. I had a few sidespin serves which broke on him last second and he misjudged. He popped up some of my serves and i went into HULK SMASH mode and smashed it right into his racket and he returned it! I smashed again to his BH and miraculously he returned that and caught me off guard. One of those nights LOLZ



[/old man rambling] LOLZ

I like reading your entries OSP, always very detailed. I can imagine you in the Hulk smash mode, and it brings a smile on my face

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

I like reading your entries OSP, always very detailed. I can imagine you in the Hulk smash mode, and it brings a smile on my face

You are too kind JeffM! THANK YOU!

I like watching your vids... slowly inspiring me to perhaps try the modern ph style soon, although I love my traditional ph game (it's more a pips game, so I may go back to pips perhaps), having the ability to spin on bh side is appealing

Maybe I should watch more Liu Guo Liang lol

Thank.you JeffM!!

P.S. my inscription helped my 2nd ball loops, usually I would miss them lol. He was scared to serve to my fh last night.

 

[Shuki]

Yea no, can't go heavier. I'm pushing my limits in weight and it was a struggle to play close to the table.

So adding weight to the handle won't actually increase swing speed and recovery time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Archosaurus]

Yea no, can't go heavier. I'm pushing my limits in weight and it was a struggle to play close to the table.

So adding weight to the handle won't actually increase swing speed and recovery time?

Well, think of it like this:

What is easier to swing down and then pull back assuming the same length, a stick with 5kg evenly distributed or a hammer with 5kg of weight distributed unevenly?

The hammer will swing down harder due to the head weight, but might be harder to pull back, right?

Meanwhile the stick will be easier to move around, but it might not get the same ultimate head speed in a smashing motion. It'll probably recover back easier if you pull it back, though.

 

[Shuki]

Well, think of it like this:

What is easier to swing down and then pull back assuming the same length, a stick with 5kg evenly distributed or a hammer with 5kg of weight distributed unevenly?

The hammer will swing down harder due to the head weight, but might be harder to pull back, right?

Meanwhile the stick will be easier to move around, but it might not get the same ultimate head speed in a smashing motion. It'll probably recover back easier if you pull it back, though.

Yes I understand this. Now imagine a 95gram blade head heavy. I add 5 grams to the handle.

Then I have a 100 gram blade same model same weight in the handle that the 95 gram blade had after adding 5 grams.

Would they play identically since weight is distributed the same and they're the same weight?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Archosaurus]

Yes I understand this. Now imagine a 95gram blade head heavy. I add 5 grams to the handle.

Then I have a 100 gram blade same model same weight in the handle that the 95 gram blade had after adding 5 grams.

Would they play identically since weight is distributed the same and they're the same weight?

Say the blade is 95g mass and the weight distribution is 60/40 front rear.

57g/38g front rear

You add 5g to the rear, let's assume it's to the very rear for simplicity sake.

57g/43g front rear.

43 divided by 100 is 0.43. Your front/rear weight distribution is now 57/43, and your total mass is 100g.

You added 5g to 95, so:

5 divided by 95 is 0.0526 ~

You added about 5.3% more mass, and you gained 3% rear weight distribution. However in reality you will gain less, perhaps more so around 2.3% or so.

Your blade is now heavier, but the rear has more mass and thus more weight when the blade is placed horizontally. The total mass of the blade is now for simplicity sake part of the swing, BUT your head weighs less and is easier to move around.

EDIT: Now I understood what your question was.

If you magically merged the weight in, and the blades were absolutely identical, I guess yeah.

I can imagine that having a purpose-built heavy blade could theoretically perform better than an "identical" homebrew blade with the same mass and weight distribution.

The wood would need to be thicker for one, if it's the same material. Actually it seems very hard to produce a handle-heavy blade that's the same composition as it's head-heavy cousin, without some kind of modifications, if you're gonna keep the middle ply the same thickness. Mass would need to be added into the handle, but if the handle is solid already, it'd complicate things.

Rather than worry about things like this, why not just slap some mass onto the handle with grip tape and nails and try it out? Blade engineering is ****ing difficult.

EDIT 2: You know, adding nails and whatnot into the handle could even potentially increase or maybe even decrease the blade's speed, but that's really pushing it I think. I wonder if anyone's ever made any impact tests on blades with wood handles vs steel handles, for example. I'm thinking that the handle won't really affect the blade face so much, but they ARE kind of binded together so very impractical, drastic changes to the handle might produce a change to the complete package, so to say.

 

[Boogar]

I somehow think that if you have a serve that your opponent just simply can't return at all in under 3 tries or so, then you're higher level than them and you'll beat them just playing your normal game. Is that wrong, and at the lower level, there's some serves that people just have problems with?

This is assuming that you're not cheating heavily on the serve, and assuming that not being able to return a cheated serve/having a tricky serve doesn't immediately constitute a huge level difference.

Although I would have to argue that having a serve that your opponent can't deal with at all constitutes a level difference. However, both can have such serves, so in that case, it's just about serving that serve, isn't it?




Hahah, this:

"Deep sidespin to backhand (so it breaks right), then reverse pendulum short to forehand (so it breaks left). This is a more specific variation of the one above."

is my favorite combo nowadays, because I'm developing my reverse pendulum.

I've done:

"Serve from wide forehand diagonally to the short forehand, then fake the same serve but go deep down the line to the backhand."

with my backhand but I'm gonna have to try that out with the forehand.

Concerning that people with serves that you can not return are much higher lvl. I don think so. Firstly they might just have a very good serve and not so good rally skills. Just like an opponent i lost to in the fifth game. His serve wasnt very spinny but deceptive as hell! For the love of god i couldn't tell if it was top or back spin! So the game became a battle of serves. If i got one of his serves back i won the game. If i missed one of mine i lost.

 

[Archosaurus]

Concerning that people with serves that you can not return are much higher lvl. I don think so. Firstly they might just have a very good serve and not so good rally skills. Just like an opponent i lost to in the fifth game. His serve wasnt very spinny but deceptive as hell! For the love of god i couldn't tell if it was top or back spin! So the game became a battle of serves. If i got one of his serves back i won the game. If i missed one of mine i lost.

You had problems with his serve, and you lost. Isn't he higher level?