Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Archosaurus]

Carl, I already drew the line on my excuses and discussing them. I'll just do my best, because there are indeed options.

Now, about that video:

I still do a lot of things that are shown in the video. My game has not fundamentally changed and advanced to a very high level game or anything: it's still a beginner game.

However, please, stop using that video as any kind of reference to my current game. Even the equipment I use has gotten far better and it much better facilitates developing a good game.

My current game has some similar problems as in the above video, but you wouldn't recognize my current self as that one if you just looked at silhouettes or something. I took the advice you gave me back then and worked hard to fix the main issues.

Hell, recently I played with that exact same bat. My shots don't even sound the same. I distinctly remember one pre-made bat I used to play with having a wooden "knock" sound on my stronger shots even quite recently a few months ago, but now it's something else. I played with it today because I was lending my setup to some other kids to test out.

My contact has changed and I'm starting to actually feel the sponge, not just the wood. My footwork has changed entirely. The people I play with are good enough nowadays that I can't just hit through them like that: I need to rally and use tactics.



No, I haven't advanced to a solid intermediate game or anything. But please, stop assuming that just because I was sub 1000 USATT months ago, I am still at that level.

 

[Der_Echte]

I have a bit of extra disposable income this month and want to make a defensive chopping setup with long pips on the backhand to play with for fun. I already have an old-ish devensive blade and a rubber for the forehand however I have no idea which long pips are best suited for chopping away from the table. Can anyone recommend me a LP rubber wich is easy to control when chopping? Doesn't have to be the fanciest one just something that is pasable for that kind of play when I want to play defensive from time to time.

Give Easy P a shot from a German company called S and T

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[UpSideDownCarl]

In this footage,

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A few other details that I am noticing looking at this video after not having looked for sooooo long:

1) When you are serving, the view is from the side, but if you pay attention, you are serving from pretty much the center of the table the way a recreational player serves.

2) Because of the side view the contact is hidden but if you watch you can see that the contact on serves is still totally flat, no tangential angle to the contact. Your hits, the same.

3) When you receive serve you also stand waiting at the center of the table. Again this is much like most recreational players who don't understand the tactical value of how to control the table.

So, I want to see the footage that shows things have changed. And I won't to see from head on. Not from an angle that hides what you are doing.


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[Der_Echte]

Archo, you are a good kid. We like you being part of the forum. You are enthusiastic. You clearly love the sport. You want to learn and get better.

When you have come to realize that there was something you thought you knew but didn't, you have shown great potential for learning.

But whenever anyone posts video, you seem pretty comfortable making comments. These comments often verge on the ridiculous. And part of why is, you are actually way lower level than you realize. Or, at least, based on the video footage you have previously posted you could be under 500 USATT.

So JUST DO WHATEVER YOU NEED TO TO POST SOME FOOTAGE OF YOURSELF PLAYING AN ACTUAL HUMAN.

@Shuki: I get your point and it is worth having someone besides Der_Echte who empathizes with Archo. So don't stop.

But he kind of needs to post footage to make the kind of comments he continues to make. I mean, come on, in strangeloop's thread he presented the idea that he and strangeloop are about the same level. If you are going to make a statement like that while critiquing someone's technique, you sort of need to show the footage that you are in that ballpark.

At this point I would say Archo needs to figure out a way to post footage of:

1) him looping vs block
2) match play
3) serve and receive practice

Until I see that, I will keep Archo firmly categorized with PNut in terms of table tennis skill level.


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I would rate Archos at 800 to 1000 usatt until I see more. Pnchy would win 3 to 0 vs Archos with Ave game 11 to 7 or lower... and Pnchy is slightly lower than Ave club player.

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[NextLevel]

Carl, I understand.

Well, there's then only two things I can do; I either post video or I shut up.

The 3rd alternative is to learn to ask questions in a way that shows an understanding of your level of TT. In fact, when playing better players or watching them or interacting with them, it is almost a waste of time to do anything other than ask questions. Pick their brains, enjoy yourself when your opinion matches theirs based on your limited experience, and just keep asking questions. If and when you play at their level, you can form stronger opinions of your own. And if you have those stronger opinions, don't share them with the better players in any other way than to pretend that you heard someone say... again, a way of becoming better skilled at asking questions.

When Brett first came to TT Forums, there was one guy who was always picking fights with him and I never understood why. Brett came online about the same time I first started learning to make people loop my no spin serves off the table by faking a down ward underspin motion after hitting the ball against the edge of my paddle. So I was hoping that people would share more serving tricks.

( By the way, this Tuesday in the local league, I actually used serves from 2 years ago against players when I was in tight battles and they returned them badly after returning all my "high level serves" throughout the match. )

What I didn't get was that here was a former National coach who was described as a World class server by all his peers mixing with us on forums and looking to share information. He was a World Class player who enjoyed coaching amateurs. And here were some morons arguing with him and trying to prove why he was wrong rather than asking for answers to every practical question about table tennis that they ever wanted to know. Because he wasn't Asian?

I chalk up a lot of your behavior to youth, but there are lots of people your age or younger who get it. I really think you need to play better players. Even the question you just asked is the kind of thing that I can answer for you now - you can have balls with high spin and flatter trajectories. No one can tell how much spin you are generating purely by watching you without a good base of reference.

 

[songdavid98]

I now need to fix two things - figure out why my power loops against high balls often go long (my stroke has to be wrong) and fix my pendulum motion.

Can I give suggestions?

From personal experience, I have always loved looping underspin. However, that has created a habit of looping easy high balls long.

I fixed this by raising my backswing. That way, by changing the starting point of your swing, you can get to the ball more easily without lifting the ball too much. This is also very important if you want to spin the ball forward instead of upwards. I posted more details in a older thread. Let me find it.

As for the pendulum serve, I can't exactly watch the video right now, but can you tell me what you are unsatisfied with? It's not really clear from reading the comments, at the least the more recent ones.

 

[Archosaurus]

Carl, those are all correct points. I told you it's a sub 1000 USATT game, right?

However, those aren't of any value to me. I've kind of figured them out by now.

The reason I stood near the middle when serving was because I actually THOUGHT I was far enough back, but then I realized something. The rules say that the ball has to be inside the area I am standing in. I can be outside it. I've been serving more towards the backhand ever since. I made it a habit to at least touch the backhand corner with the side of my left leg, and then moved it more towards the backhand some more.

The flat serve, well. Yeah. It stops working at a certain point, and I start learning how to brush at a certain point. I couldn't even serve topspin back then.

My hits are flat because I didn't have a single semblance of brushing feel, and my swing geometry was all screwed up. Now when I know what I was doing, I can clearly see that I'm pushing into the ball. My upper arm - lower arm relation is also a bit strange: it doesn't look too comfortable.

 

[NextLevel]

Can I give suggestions?

From personal experience, I have always loved looping underspin. However, that has created a habit of looping easy high balls long.

I fixed this by raising my backswing. That way, by changing the starting point of your swing, you can get to the ball more easily without lifting the ball too much. This is also very important if you want to spin the ball forward instead of upwards. I posted more details in a older thread. Let me find it.

As for the pendulum serve, I can't exactly watch the video right now, but can you tell me what you are unsatisfied with? It's not really clear from reading the comments, at the least the more recent ones.

Thanks for this. Unfortunately, I didn't record the matches where this happened, though I feel that I improved the stroke a little in the second set of loops for that. But I think you are right that I should work even harder on getting my backswing even higher. I have serious counterlooping issues.

The pendulum serve is an elbow positioning thing. I don't get the elbow high enough to serve with proper form. It's a decent serve, but I want to have great serves.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

The flat serve, well. Yeah. It stops working at a certain point, and I start learning how to brush at a certain point. I couldn't even serve topspin back then.

I believe any serve stops working at a certain point IF you use it exclusively in a match. Your partner will adapt and then that serve becomes ineffective. HOWEVER, if you mixed your serve types and/or vary speed/placement, the same serve has new life and becomes almost its own serve.

Good luck in your TT training!

 

[Archosaurus]

I believe any serve stops working at a certain IF you use it exclusively in a match. Your partner will adapt and then that serve becomes ineffective. HOWEVER, if you mixed your serve types and/or vary speed/placement, the same serve has new life and becomes almost its own serve.

Good luck in your TT training!

Sure. However, a serve like that will be ineffective no matter where you place it or when you pull it out if you're playing anyone who is anywhere near the 1000's.

The no-spin serve I was doing in that video, and my current no-spin serves aren't anything alike. Let's not even talk about actual high level no-spin serves. A good no-spin serve is a weapon, that kind of no-spin serve is a one way ticket to loop-city.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

However, please, stop using that video as any kind of reference to my current game. Even the equipment I use has gotten far better and it much better facilitates developing a good game.

I will tell you what: when you post video of how you are playing now, with a good angle so we can see what you are doing, then I will forget about this footage.

But until you do that, critiquing others and saying things like "our level" should not happen. When it does, I will post this video. [emoji2] Just to show what your level is, based on the only footage that shows what your level might be.

And also, it should be noted that that video was posted March 2016. So, how much can we expect your game to have changed in the last 6 months given that you don't have access to coaching or high level players who can help you improve IN PERSON?



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[songdavid98]

Thanks for this. Unfortunately, I didn't record the matches where this happened, though I feel that I improved the stroke a little in the second set of loops for that. But I think you are right that I should work even harder on getting my backswing even higher. I have serious counterlooping issues.

The pendulum serve is an elbow positioning thing. I don't get the elbow high enough to serve with proper form. It's a decent serve, but I want to have great serves.

Oh yeah, raising the backswing is pretty important if you want to counter loop. The way I got the idea of raising my backswing was actually through comparing the forehand and the backhand. If the ball is fairly high on your backhand, assuming you'll hit it with your backhand, you wouldn't exactly drop your backhand far down.


As for the serves, everybody's serves are different. So, you don't exactly have to copy other people, especially since your body is differently shaped that everybody else's body. Is there something specific that you can't do with your pendulum serve? Legnth, spin? Or maybe you can't do a certain combination of the two?

Assuming sidespin is a given:
If you want to create underspin, your elbow has to be low. If you want to create topspin, your elbow has to be high. What is your goal? Having a specific goal makes everything easier to accomplish.


EDIT:
I found the link to the post about backswing https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/...ooping-slow-no-spin-balls&p=145202#post145202

 

[Archosaurus]

I will tell you what: when you post video of how you are playing now, with a good angle so we can see what you are doing, then I will forget about this footage.

But until you do that, critiquing others and saying things like "our level" should not happen. When it does, I will post this video. [emoji2] Just to show what your level is, based on the only footage that shows what your level might be.

And also, it should be noted that that video was posted March 2016. So, how much can we expect your game to have changed in the last 6 months given that you don't have access to coaching or high level players who can help you improve IN PERSON?



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Sure, deal. I had a good laugh seeing that old video, actually.


Carl, like I said, I'm probably not a solid intermediate player or anything. However, do you really think it's impossible to improve from a "Maybe nearing 1000 USATT" level to low - mid 1000's? Especially when I can actually serve something respectable these days?

 

[NextLevel]

Oh yeah, raising the backswing is pretty important if you want to counter loop. The way I got the idea of raising my backswing was actually through comparing the forehand and the backhand. If the ball is fairly high on your backhand, assuming you'll hit it with your backhand, you wouldn't exactly drop your backhand far down.


As for the serves, everybody's serves are different. So, you don't exactly have to copy other people, especially since your body is differently shaped that everybody else's body. Is there something specific that you can't do with your pendulum serve? Legnth, spin? Or maybe you can't do a certain combination of the two?

Assuming sidespin is a given:
If you want to create underspin, your elbow has to be low. If you want to create topspin, your elbow has to be high. What is your goal? Having a specific goal makes everything easier to accomplish.


EDIT:
I found the link to the post about backswing https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/...ooping-slow-no-spin-balls&p=145202#post145202

Thanks. I work with Brett Clarke on my serves. He has a really amazing bunch of serves and he is very much into technical detail when performing a serve - the pattern of the swing has to be right, the elbow position has to be on point etc. He just things my elbow position is subpar. That said, reviewing these videos I am noticing certain things that are missing from my swing.

Here is a sample:

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Sure, deal. I had a good laugh seeing that old video, actually.


Carl, like I said, I'm probably not a solid intermediate player or anything. However, do you really think it's impossible to improve from a "Maybe nearing 1000 USATT" level to low - mid 1000's? Especially when I can actually serve something respectable these days?

Okay. I am good with that deal.

As far as level, back then you were talking about your loops when the video shows you are not looping at all. You were also talking about what high level serves you had. When we can see that they were totally wonky serves.

So, without the video, you talking about sidespin and fade shots and how much spin you get on your serves is just you talking. And the video footage we have shows something else.

And back when this was posted you were telling guys WAY HIGHER LEVEL than you that "back when I was as low level as you...." And just yesterday you intimated that you are in the same level range as strangeloop, but, I am willing to bet the farm you are not even within 3 levels of him.

If I wanted to talk in hyperbole and say stuff about the sidespin on my loops, it would be just as silly. But I could let someone like OldSchool say what he saw about my loops. Because he was on the receiving end. What I say means nothing.

If I boast about my around the net shots, well that is just boasting. But if you watch NextLevel's video footage, you can see, in a doubles match with NextLevel and USDCarl vs Ilia Minkin and Matt Hetherington, USDCarl goes around the net for a clean winner in actual match-play. [emoji2]

Or 42&backpains or OldSchool may chime in with shots they saw me hit around the net if they wanted.m.

But if I talk about them, in all honesty, it would be foolish because talk is cheap and I know I am not that good either.

And I do feel lucky to get to play with so many guys who are better than me: guys like NextLevel and Der_Echte and Edmund Suen and Matt Hetherington, and PPH and Robert Chen and Mark Croitoroo and Michael Landers and Paul David and Matthew Kahn and Matthew Suchy, and Alex Pérez.....wait should I continue the list of guys who have helped me improve my game? If my technique is any good at all, it has a lot to do with the help I have gotten from guys like the ones in that list. So, really it would be more about thanking these guys than about talking about what I can do.



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[NextLevel]

And I do feel lucky to get to play with so many guys who are better than me: guys like NextLevel and Der_Echte and Edmund Suen and Matt Hetherington, and PPH and Robert Chen and Mark Croitoroo and Michael Landers and Paul David and Matthew Kahn and Matthew Suchy, and Alex Pérez.....wait should I continue the list of guys who have helped me improve my game? If my technique is any good at all, it has a lot to do with the help I have gotten from guys like the ones in that list. So, really it would be more about thanking these guys than about talking about what I can do.



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One day, Archo may find a real table tennis club. Then he may have millions of questions which he will have to pay a coach to learn the right answers too. Then he will remember a time when he was actually around players who were giving him these answers for free. And he will remember his response was to try to tell these players how to fix their games. And at that point, he will probably realize how dumb he was if he is older and smarter.

When I was trying to get better at TT online, no one was giving the quality of information that I am trying to give people. Heck. no one was giving the quality of information that DerEchte was posting on the KJH and Nexy videos. I mean, the number of people who have either told me that they actually remember me from these videos or tried the reverse because of it would surprised you (okay, it wouldn't):

I find it amazing that archo doesn't realize how hard table tennis is. I wish I was 18 again.

BTW, the accident benefit of all this crap is that I am looking at all these old videos and seeing details that can help me now - NICE!!!

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

One day, Archo may find a real table tennis club. Then he may have millions of questions which he will have to pay a coach to learn the right answers too. Then he will remember a time when he was actually around players who were giving him these answers for free. And he will remember his response was to try to tell these players how to fix their games. And at that point, he will probably realize how dumb he was if he is older and smarter.

When I was trying to get better at TT online, no one was giving the quality of information that I am trying to give people. Heck. no one was giving the quality of information that DerEchte was posting on the KJH and Nexy videos. I mean, the number of people who have either told me that they actually remember me from these videos or tried the reverse because of it would surprised you (okay, it wouldn't):

I find it amazing that archo doesn't realize how hard table tennis is. I wish I was 18 again.

Where's that darned SUPER LIKE BUTTON when you need it? [emoji2]


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[songdavid98]

Thanks. I work with Brett Clarke on my serves. He has a really amazing bunch of serves and he is very much into technical detail when performing a serve - the pattern of the swing has to be right, the elbow position has to be on point etc. He just things my elbow position is subpar. That said, reviewing these videos I am noticing certain things that are missing from my swing.

Here is a sample:

Wow I tried the hand towel trick in the first video, and my towel moved super fast, and I ended hitting myself pretty hard.

DAMN YOU BRETT CLARKE

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

I'm the old fat guy on the right in the video. I don't know how easy or hard it looks on video to be blocking Carl's loops from the video. But I'll tell you, i think i'm a decent enough blocker and it was difficult for me to block Carl's loops. As a traditional penholder, one of my bread and butter techniques/tools is the BH block. Carl varied his spin and his speed, and it was very challenging. This video was shot by 42andbackpains prior to our doubles matches of the night (with Der_Echte and PingPongHolic). Sadly what didn't make it to video was the 30-60 mins (old man memory, i don't remember) of Carl looping and me blocking on another table. This video was just a warmup prior to our doubles matches. Also sadly the doubles matches was not video'd either.

Carl is a good looper. No doubt about it.

With respect to Carl's around the net shot... first time i met Carl was in June of this year. 42&bp asked if i could get out of the house on a saturday night to go hang out at his TT club as well as hit with him and his friend. Fortunately, I was able to. I was warming up with Carl and he said something like nice sidespin loop. Then he does the around the net shot and IT BLEW MY MIND! Too bad, that was not on video, however, I HAVE NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT CARL CAN MAKE THAT SHOT CONSISTENTLY. Although 42&bp clued me in that Carl was decently rated, that shot confirmed his skill for me.

Carl can talk the talk as he can walk the walk too. I have the deepest admiration and respect for Carl,

~osph

 

[songdavid98]

From what I see from your serve, is that your movement seems a kind of slow. For the pendulum serve, you should focus most of the power into the wrist. To me, it looks like you are treating the pendulum serve too much like a pendulum. Completely control and whip your wrist. Your forearm guides your wrist, but your wrist does all the work, so don't let it go loose when you swing. I pretty much make my wrist go as fast as it can.


It looks like you aren't accelerating well? Yeah, I just checked in the bathroom mirror: your wrist isn't moving fast enough. It's a bit harder for shakehand, but it's still doable.


And it looks kind of uncomfortable for you.


On the side note:
In this practice video, it looks like aren't even giving yourself enough time to prepare for a good swing, like you were just dishing out balls. Maybe toss the ball higher (tossing the ball higher forces you to have good swing though, so I don't know if it is good for development)?

EDIT: I went back and looked at our game from last year. I guess it's just the way you've been serving.