Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

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Danny Seemiller serves like this and it is evil. The key is to look for slice or brush hit. Slice means backspin, brush hit usually means sidespin or side topspin. Do you have the TTEdge app? Brett has something not quite as evil but similar.

Yes I have the TTEdge app! I even bought the full version, to unlock all the levels.

But I think the serve-guessing game in the app is bogus. They don't let you slow each serve frame-by-frame, so I cannot identify what makes each serve unique. So even after I play like 20 times, my guess-rate is still the same. I don't improve.

On the other hand, the "guess-which-direction-the-ball-will-go" game, I improve the more I play. I learned to watch the ball after it comes off the paddle, and not before.
 
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Yeah, that is what they tell people who don't get it. The thing is that some people try to hit the ball and then jerk their wrist to add spin or something like that. It is bad *default* technique and has issues in terms that it reduces the overall swing speed so it should not be your default stroke. However, all top players do something like it as an emergency stroke sometimes if the ball is the right kind of ball. But you can't be a top player if that is your default technique as the power and consistency is not enough.

But as you get more experienced, you realize that all strokes form a path. I am describing the path of the stroke when I say things like hit the ball and cover, or hit the ball and go up, or hit the ball and fade up or hit the ball and fade over. I find in my experience that the racket angle determines the contact point for controlling the spin, the path determines what spin you are adding to the ball, and the thickness of the contact determines how much pace vs spin you will generate. But the three are all connected so my seperation may not make complete sense. The path sometimes captures everything as the path sometimes sets the racket angle and the path *can* affect the thickness of the contact.

But in any case, what you should not be changing too radically is the swing path. If the ball is slow and you have time to approach it with a slower start, you can change it, but when it is fast, it is just about impossible to change, and in general anyways, you should have already read the ball early and set your swing path in general based on the incoming ball so you can get maximum acceleration into the ball. There is no point dropping your racket when you know that your opponent is not a chopper and you have just looped the ball, your racket should be high and ready to make contact somewhere on top of the ball or close to it on the side since the next ball will be topspin depending on block or countertopspin 95% of the time (the crazy chop blocker not withstanding). So you don't want to lift the ball off the bounce, you can't come from well beneath and behind, your ball will have to come round close to the ball height and likely over the side to use spin avoidance. So you usually play down to up to counteract backspin, back to front (or more usually, left to right or right to left) to counteract topspin or topspin and sidespin. The swing is the same, the path and contact point and thickness will change to accommodate the incoming spin.

The thing is that when you hit the back of the ball (and I probably tried to explain this to you a year and a half ago), the ball is going to be pushed forward by your impact so your path has to be set to spin but it is hard to spin if your path is set to hit the ball on its face as you are absorbing all the incoming spin. It is why most loops off the bounce are hooks or fades if you watch what happens to the ball after the shot, they knock the ball of its axis and add their own spin instead of fighting the spin on the ball. Even loops in rallies are similar. Let's hear a pro describe it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozVAt4LT90o (he explains that for a spinny ball, you almost need to push the ball down to depress heavy topspin - someone would argue that he is still coming round the side and over but that is another story - the swing is one example of a path).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kZRmomeckg (he explains how to avoid the spin to keep the rally going with sidespin - this is the most relevant one to what I wrote about - but it doesn't have to be sidespin per se, it is more about the contact point - an observant person will note that the hook stroke is not that different a stroke from part 1. He also explains that sidespin lets you take the ball later in some cases).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kZRmomeckg (he gives a mental approach for when the ball is less spinny. But note that his swing is not that different and in every case, he is using a hooking swing to counterloop the ball off the bounce with minor changes to the swing trajectory based in how he reads the incoming ball).

So the thing is that many people when they first hear spin, they think of brushing. No, spin is not about brushing, spin is about good rubber and the *PATH* of the swing. It is when you need to make the ball spin a lot over a short distance that you brush more, but if the ball is coming in fast with heavy spin and you are off the table and you need to make the ball travel, you may not be able to brush as much. The most important thing is to set the swing path and chose a good contact point so that you get the result you are looking for. But if you hit the ball where the spin is most, your angle has to be perfect and you will be fighting the incoming spin and pace - this is why some people can only loop from 10 feet off the table as they need the ball to lose some of its power so they can play their lifting stroke. This is madness - if I had to play this way, I would have quit table tennis a long time ago.

What I do, as old as I am, is try to read the ball and figure out how it is spinning and to play my stroke on a point on the ball where the spin is not too heavy so I can get the effect I am looking for. This is why people are able to take the ball off the bounce. The trick is to take the ball as early as possible and borrow the incoming pace and spin and come round the side and loop it with sidespin and use the incoming topspin to play your own spin. It's a physics problem that the brain solves with practice if you let it.


IF you look at your loop carefully and you swing the full path with salute at the forehead, you will see that it comes round the side and over the ball. IT is also often a curved stroke though some people can increase or reduce the curve. So the angle is change slightly throughout the stroke. You just don't try to hit the ball and change it immediately after hitting the ball. And in fact setting the angle throughout the stroke is silly and will usually hit the ball long unless you are lucky. What you need to do is follow the shape of the ball with your strokes in general, and this will tend to produce the effect you are looking for, how much of the shape you follow depends on spin, speed, incoming ball etc. But you will see that if you do this, it is easier to exposed the racket to the ball for safety and hit the side a bit on most strokes to fight incoming spin, this makes your stroke safer and lets you add your own spin and power if you are using inverted. Give it a try and let me know how it goes. Trying to brush too much often means you miss the ball, it is a bad habit I try to fix in my own game and in some of my students, but old habits die hard. But the more you hit the ball with good rubber and turning stroke, the more your spin will be. Don't try to avoid the ball, hit the ball with turning stroke. Then reduce the thickness of contact to get more brush spin when you are certain of your contact, trying to avoid the ball from the start will lead to too much missing.

So yes, try to use as much racket face as possible to turn the ball. It takes some practice and adjustment, but watch pros like Mizutani or Maze if you want to see the technique. I posted a lot of backhand videos but technique for forehand is similar, you can watch my matches or that of most of my opponents to get it.

Thank you so much for that post!

This actually concerns me deeply. I started to to go back and loop the ball when it has less spin and that is under the table most of the time... which is indeed madness and it made me frustrated with the game big time! I think I never ever was as demotivated in playing tt as I am at the moment.

However, your post makes so much sense to mo and i feel the urge to go and try those things out! I always thought that spin evasion stuff was gimmicky and not that important... but now I start to realise that i was wrong!

I had great fun rewatching the tutorials from pierre. I remeber watching them maybe two years ago and thinking to myself thats bs xD its crazy how much my understanding or ability to understand, that there is in fact more to tt than i thought, has changed!
 
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Yes I have the TTEdge app! I even bought the full version, to unlock all the levels.

But I think the serve-guessing game in the app is bogus. They don't let you slow each serve frame-by-frame, so I cannot identify what makes each serve unique. So even after I play like 20 times, my guess-rate is still the same. I don't improve.

On the other hand, the "guess-which-direction-the-ball-will-go" game, I improve the more I play. I learned to watch the ball after it comes off the paddle, and not before.

It's not bogus. The slow motions are pretty much sufficient but Brett made some supplemental videos for members. But feel free to ask about the serves. The app has only 3 serves of each type. All the serves are pros so their serves are pretty similar for each spin with the minor exception of Brett whose are still similar but can be different in speed.

Look at the paddle angle before and after contact as hard as you can and sometimes the serve follow through. The tournament has the serves in really slow motion and that helps too. Usually when I play the app, I pick up contact better when looking at serves. I just wish they had more.

The thing to realize is that if you play enough and look closely enough you will pick up things without knowing why. Don't think it has to be conscious all the time.
 
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I had great fun rewatching the tutorials from pierre. I remeber watching them maybe two years ago and thinking to myself thats bs xD its crazy how much my understanding or ability to understand, that there is in fact more to tt than i thought, has changed!

Pros can be wrong, but pros *never* spout BS. When a higher level player over 2500 USATT (I would go as low as 2200 USATT but that is me, and even lower if your goal for improvement is lower) explains to you how he thinks about the game, whether you agree or disagree, you listen and take notes seriously. Sometimes, you may not even understand what they are saying even if you think they are. But if they are right, and their game fits your overall philosophy, you will hear the same thing again later if you improve. Table tennis is not magic, the players who get better didn't all invent different ways of approaching the ball.

I played a match I Was very proud of yesterday night, I played this kid who usually gives me trouble and makes me tired because he has a consistent off the table game and I am often forced to play multiple shots. I was injured from previous matches and hitting and lack of sleep so I decided to play him by standing wide and holding the table and taking the ball early. It was funny but everytime the kid put the ball on my forehand and I was at the table, I just took the ball off the bounce and the ball went so wide to his forehand that he lost the point pretty much every time. Committing to play that way will be hard but I think it is easier for me than running all over the place.

Trust me, spin avoidance is not a gimmick. The people who think it is just do it without knowing it when they make good shots. It is built into good looping technique, but if you want to understand your technique or you are too used to hitting the ball flat and want to understand why you need to swing this way or that way, spin avoidance and exposing as much racket as possible to the ball are the answers you need.
 
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.. the gift that keeps on giving ... I reread the original post ... wonderfully explained ... completely agree to what you are saying .. you made me think of my early forays into table tennis when I used to flat hit side spin balls loops off the bounce pretty consistently, come to think of it even that had spin avoidance of some sort built into it .. and then you get trained to hi forehands and somewhere in the brain you get this wrong idea that the ideal forehand and the backhand stroke is supposed to take every ball on its face , and most of it comes from the fact that when building the basic stroke ( especially on the forehand ) coaches ask people to keep the wrist straight and aligned to the forearm and then you see videos of Ma Long and Wang Liqin and somehow that idea gets reinforced in the brain and you lose sight of what was a natural reaction of the brain to make the strokes more consistent ... then you start playing more and more and the stroke automatically adjusts and finally you see a video of yourself doing the stroke you realize you are doing corkscrew loops more and more .. well at least that my story ...

Pros can be wrong, but pros *never* spout BS. When a higher level player over 2500 USATT (I would go as low as 2200 USATT but that is me, and even lower if your goal for improvement is lower) explains to you how he thinks about the game, whether you agree or disagree, you listen and take notes seriously. Sometimes, you may not even understand what they are saying even if you think they are. But if they are right, and their game fits your overall philosophy, you will hear the same thing again later if you improve. Table tennis is not magic, the players who get better didn't all invent different ways of approaching the ball.

I played a match I Was very proud of yesterday night, I played this kid who usually gives me trouble and makes me tired because he has a consistent off the table game and I am often forced to play multiple shots. I was injured from previous matches and hitting and lack of sleep so I decided to play him by standing wide and holding the table and taking the ball early. It was funny but everytime the kid put the ball on my forehand and I was at the table, I just took the ball off the bounce and the ball went so wide to his forehand that he lost the point pretty much every time. Committing to play that way will be hard but I think it is easier for me than running all over the place.

Trust me, spin avoidance is not a gimmick. The people who think it is just do it without knowing it when they make good shots. It is built into good looping technique, but if you want to understand your technique or you are too used to hitting the ball flat and want to understand why you need to swing this way or that way, spin avoidance and exposing as much racket as possible to the ball are the answers you need.
 
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.. the gift that keeps on giving ... I reread the original post ... wonderfully explained ... completely agree to what you are saying .. you made me think of my early forays into table tennis when I used to flat hit side spin balls loops off the bounce pretty consistently, come to think of it even that had spin avoidance of some sort built into it .. and then you get trained to hi forehands and somewhere in the brain you get this wrong idea that the ideal forehand and the backhand stroke is supposed to take every ball on its face , and most of it comes from the fact that when building the basic stroke ( especially on the forehand ) coaches ask people to keep the wrist straight and aligned to the forearm and then you see videos of Ma Long and Wang Liqin and somehow that idea gets reinforced in the brain and you lose sight of what was a natural reaction of the brain to make the strokes more consistent ... then you start playing more and more and the stroke automatically adjusts and finally you see a video of yourself doing the stroke you realize you are doing corkscrew loops more and more .. well at least that my story ...


There is so much I can write in response to this but I don't want to write another epistle. I agree with everything you said. In the end, you just have to know the swing and just practice swinging at the ball. Even the Ma Long and Wang Liqin contact the ball in a similar way, it's just slow rubber and brushier stroke and using more body to create the rotation around the shoulder than arm action. The Euro/Jap use relatively more arm action, while the Chinese/Koreans use relatively more leg action and core rotation. Of course depends on which Europeans and which Chinese....
 
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I cannot tell you how many 2200 to 2400 level players I see who still tackle heavy incoming top Spin straight on... and often hit out in disbelief.

There is a way to firm up at the end and hit through to negate a lot of the spin... but you still need timing and bat angle.

The concept of impacting a bit on the side to control incoming spin is so seriously easy to understand, but few at good or elite amateur level seem to do it.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 
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I cannot tell you how many 2200 to 2400 level players I see who still tackle heavy incoming top Spin straight on... and often hit out in disbelief.

There is a way to firm up at the end and hit through to negate a lot of the spin... but you still need timing and bat angle.

The concept of impacting a bit on the side to control incoming spin is so seriously easy to understand, but few at good or elite amateur level seem to do it.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

To be fair, there are levels of spin. My coach told me that you have to play a counterloop early or late when the ball has heavy spin. Sometimes, even going round the side can be difficult to use to bring the ball down if you take it at the top of the bounce. The big guy who beats me in my videos was once talking about my stroke. He said it was correct now but I am often taking the ball too late for what my stroke needs to be effective. I have decided that I am going to build my game around taking the ball earlier and earlier vs topspin. It just makes me scarier.
 
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Go go spin avoidance squad!! :D

Btw what do you think about the TTD Academy?

IT's a good internet video service. I am a TTEdge member, but the service from TTD is cheaper and I think their location will allow them to build a good strong service with lots of guest lecturers and bonus features. They may even be able to tie in camps and coaching to build more business. I reviewed the content with my TTEdge understanding and I found it pretty sound. Given 5 years of Internet coaching observation etc., I know there are limits to what internet coaching can do and what it can address in your game - it takes time to figure out what the balance should be. If I didn't have TTEdge, I would definitely pay for it as I suspect that over time, more and more "secrets" will come out of the service and some of those kinds of secrets from TTEdge have helped me a lot with how I think about my game and my coaching.
 
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Before others chime in , from what I have researched , Timo Boll ALC , is one more iteration in the classic butterfly ALC blades that started with Viscaria . Viscaria , TB ALC , ZJK ALC are all similar in composition and play pretty much around the same ball park . They just played around with the thickness of the plies and such but not by too much ...

the real question is why do you want a new blade ? What is that is lacking in the current blade etc ...


also, if I were you , I would save that money and invest in getting training and such unless you really need a new blade ..

Does anyone have any experience with Timo Boll ALC? I saw it in the store and it has a penhold version. So I am considering it if I was to get a new blade.
 
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Before others chime in , from what I have researched , Timo Boll ALC , is one more iteration in the classic butterfly ALC blades that started with Viscaria . Viscaria , TB ALC , ZJK ALC are all similar in composition and play pretty much around the same ball park . They just played around with the thickness of the plies and such but not by too much ...

the real question is why do you want a new blade ? What is that is lacking in the current blade etc ...


also, if I were you , I would save that money and invest in getting training and such unless you really need a new blade ..

Thank you for your input ttmonster!

That is a good question. I do not feel my current blade is lacking anything particularly. I have always wanted to try a butterfly blade, but I've never really owned one. Last time, when the apolonia Tiago ZLC blade was released, I liked the design and the handle and was quite keen to get one, but then they do not have a penhold version. So I didn't end up getting one. I know there is a innerforce zlc penhold version. I have tried that blade when my friend bought it, but he put on a very bouncy rubber on it, so I couldn't really get a feel of what it would be like with my H3 neo rubber.

I am asking about the timo boll alc, as I have heard really good things about the alc series. The store owner says, with stiga blades, it suits some ppl but some ppl don't like it; while with butterfly, most ppl are happy with it. I don't know how true that is, but I do believe that butterfly blades are quite high quality. Hence my interest in it.

That being said, I am still just exploring, and might not end up getting anything...

With regards to spending the money on training, I agree too. I will probably have to get used to working first and then only try to fit training/ coaching into the schedule.
 
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If you just want to try out , TB ALC is just as good as any ..
I can just tell you my experience with this kind of trying out stuff, if it helps ...
I was playing with ZJK ALC for a while and I completely adapted to it to the point where I was really comfortable with it. And, when I used Viscaria I really felt that it was crisper than the ZJK ALC I had and the sweet spot was larger ...

however, now I have been playing with HL5 and I really like HL5 and feel that it has helped my game , especially because the carbon is a little more inside and the outer ply is Limba which is softer and holds the ball longer . But the power from the carbon kicks in when you hit harder especially when you are little further away from the table ... compared to HL5 ( which is a DHS Blade ) the ALC blades you are looking for has a Koto outer play and the dwell is less but there is a crisper contact and a larger sweet spot ... now since I woke up to the fact that a larger sweet spot is not necessary the best thing for a player who wants to develop technique and consistency .. I have been trying out equipment that tilts in that direction , hence I switched from T05 and ZJK ALC , one by one , to H3 and HL5 .. .


Thank you for your input ttmonster!

That is a good question. I do not feel my current blade is lacking anything particularly. I have always wanted to try a butterfly blade, but I've never really owned one. Last time, when the apolonia Tiago ZLC blade was released, I liked the design and the handle and was quite keen to get one, but then they do not have a penhold version. So I didn't end up getting one. I know there is a innerforce zlc penhold version. I have tried that blade when my friend bought it, but he put on a very bouncy rubber on it, so I couldn't really get a feel of what it would be like with my H3 neo rubber.

I am asking about the timo boll alc, as I have heard really good things about the alc series. The store owner says, with stiga blades, it suits some ppl but some ppl don't like it; while with butterfly, most ppl are happy with it. I don't know how true that is, but I do believe that butterfly blades are quite high quality. Hence my interest in it.

That being said, I am still just exploring, and might not end up getting anything...

With regards to spending the money on training, I agree too. I will probably have to get used to working first and then only try to fit training/ coaching into the schedule.
 
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Hey!
How about christmas tournaments?
I was at one.. really weird one, was really unhappy as the whole tournament was played with crappy and not really round 2 star balls that were really bad..
Anyways I managed to win my group and then in the draw I got one player I know, he is pretty good on a good day and pretty bad on a bad day.
In average I mostly beat him without trouble, but this was his good day and my not that good..
Losing 0:2 and 2:6 I called time out to reconsider what to do.
I decided to go more spiny into his serves and to try to attack his body, as on the sides he was much better..
Worked and I scored 8 in row, but at 10:6 I somehow lost focus and suddenly 10:10..
That is the moment where I thought its over.
Luckily I hit edge of the table and then he hit net and off, so I had my first game in the bank.
Fourth I also had 10:8 to 10:10 and won.. and the deciding at 9:7 I got 9:9, but my serves saved me.
So I got myself in the semifinal.
There were 3 semifinals, as they wanted to have final group of 3 to determine the winner by playing each other in the final group.
I had a player in the semis that I dont like, because I know he is a jerk..
I lost first game and won second convincingly. But the ball was making me pain all the time. So many unforced errors by weird jump of the ball, I still couldnt find my game. After his topspin ball jumpes up, after his ordinary serve ball doesnt bounce .. etc.. you know that..
So I lost 3:1 despite all of my efforts.. I knew I could win it, but my head just stopped me with anger for the ball. I even broke the ball with the edge of the racket, but the second one was even worse.
Anyways, at least I got some nice matches recorded :)

I am going to share one - the blocker from our club against a talented but over confident kid.. Quarterfinals..


And the later winner of the tournament against a very good player with antitopspin rubber, but both from the same club, that is why the winner had no real trouble with the anti.. This was quarterfinals..


The Blocker vs. the anti in the groups..


I do not have later matches as I didnt consider them interresting.. and they not really were.. except for my quarterfinal that I magicly won from deep down..
 
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OSPH told me i better not post this story about losing in the forums, but i feel its better to let the world know so i can grow and get better.


So you don't listen to me, and you post anyway... you better listen to me then when i say, spot me 9 points!
 
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.. the rate you are going OSP ... you will soon have nobody left to actually play table tennis with ,you will just spot points and win ... :p

So you don't listen to me, and you post anyway... you better listen to me then when i say, spot me 9 points!
 
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I took the day off yesterday from work. Had to run some errands.

In the sub-freezing cold, if i was at work, it's a no-brainer that I would leave work, take the subway and go to the club. But I was warm and cozy at home. If i went to the club, I would have to walk ~25 mins in sub-freezing temperatures as well as facing the wind making it close to sub-zero Fahrenheit!

"Showing up is 80 percent of life."
~Woody Allen

I fought my mind very hard, and braved the weather and walked to the club!

Hit for 2.5 hrs straight. Club was relatively empty. Seems like a new club opened in Flushing, and perhaps some members went there to check it out.

Hit with K, haven't hit with him in ages. He has improved by leaps and bounds, showing up 5x a week, whereas I took time off for daughter's driving lessons, and recuperate from shoulder soreness. He gave me a few pointers and we worked on my FH loop and FH flick/banana/chiquita.

Perhaps it's the 30+ years break, perhaps I didn't officially learned the FH loop ages ago, perhaps it's old man memory, perhaps I developed bad muscle memory when I unretired from TT ... i am FH looping mostly arm, not engaging my core and legs. I shadow periodically and still struggling to get all the moving parts to act in unison. Been concentrating on SH BH and RPB and once in a while SH BH loo/RPB loop.

As I'm a close-to-the table player and currently using a fast setup, i should be meeting the ball sooner and shortening my stroke. Did some like that. Also used to the longer stroke and a little away from the table and looped some like that. Felt good to loop 80-90%. Still cannot loop slow spinny loops consistently. Need to slow down ... also too conscious of all the moving parts. Need to be subconsciously flow.

Hit with F next. Hit with him one other time. Very steady SH, nice FH loops, nice kick to his loops. Challenging to block/return steadily for him. Like hitting with him. Then my turn to fh loop, like with K, i did both short stroke and long stroke. Last time we hit, club was jam-packed. We were forced to play a match. He couldn't read my serves and was susceptible to side-top serves and I flat-hit many winners. Strokes-wise and consistency, he is at least one level above me.

Looking forward to the next time I hit with F as well as with K.
 
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