Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Der_Echte]

True, but didn't Waldner or Persson win the Swedish title for many years, even if their teeth were 1.5 meters long about to touch the floor walking with canes and hearing aids?

 

[Der_Echte]

Next Level wrote a good discussion of the worth or worthlessness of good looking practice..

Next Level can tell you personally (he has seen me a few times) that my practice and practice strokes make me look like I chose the wrong sport and could not even spell table tennis.

I do not do FH to FH close to table for 10 shots consecutively...blah blah blah I look ugly, I look heavier and more immobile than a statue, but when it is match time I serve and attack away.

 

[Der_Echte]

Haha, you guys do not seem to like eachother

I have no problem that people do not agree with me. That is fine, everyone should have their own opinion.
And i do not want to be rude against Americans and say that there level is low or something. Everyone is doing the best they can with the opportunities they have.

But i do not think it should be possible for a guy that quite playing because he was injuried and that have been retired for over 15 years to go in and win one of the biggest tournaments(is it the biggest?) in the US. I feel that someone should have been able to become better than him during those 15 years when he did not play. But maybe this guy is a huge talent so he is able to do that. it is very impressive of him but not good for the tabletennis in the US.

Lula,

If you look at both Der_Echte and BH-Man's photo icons and what they talk about, you might see some similarities...

 

[FruitLoop]

True, but didn't Waldner or Persson win the Swedish title for many years, even if their teeth were 1.5 meters long about to touch the floor walking with canes and hearing aids?

Big difference between Waldner and Persson with no years off and Butler with 15 years off.

Waldner and Persson could probably come close to winning the US national title now if they were American.

 

[thekleifheit13]

Doing a stroke vs a robot is different from doing jt in multi ball which is very different from doing a stroke in practice drills which is again different from doing it in practice matches which is again different from doing it in real matches. Each scenario adds something important that is a piece on the puzzle in developing true confidence and competence in your abilities.

The robot delivers a mostly fixed ball which doesn't place any pressure on you to read the spin or location or depth or even the racket of the feeder.

With multi ball you get the racket of the feeder and a more human element but still artificial.

With drills, if they are similar to the matches, you get a relaxed opportunity to hone a skill but the training partner will likely not have the degree of variation you have in a match and you don't have as many demands on you to adjust to the opponent.

Practice matches are where the fun begins as you have to use what you have learned combined with a lot of other skills if your opponent doesn't know what you have worked on. Then you have to read the play and adapt your skills to it usually without the pressure of serious consequences with a loss. This is the beginning of developing the skill to true usage. The usual problem is not reading and adapting to the play, usually the spin or the location/placement. You have to look at what happened to the ball when you miss, investigate the causes, and then adapt your stroke and ball read. This should be a feature of all your practices and drills but unfortunately, most people are only forced to start this in practice matches when they should adapt their training to support this before this level with subtle variations to make their brain adapt faster.

Then you have tournament matches. If you can use and adapt the skill here, then you have broken through.

Dubina and some people add in a Match point level, or a match point down level, which is whether you would use the skill match point down when you need the point. In these situations, there is an extra pressure that affects your confidence in the skills if they are not fully formed.

The point of all this is to say there is nothing special or magical about looking good in practice and looking worse in matches. In fact, LGL says that there is no proper /teztbook technique on display in matches or points where you are pushed to your competitive maximum. He was in part joking but anyone who plays at a semi serious level or better understands what he means.

So take your stroke through the steps above and then you will start looking as good in matches as you do in practice. But until then, do not describe the disparity as anything special. It is when you get stuck at doing the skill in practice matches and cannot do it in pressure matches that you need to visit what the drivers of this may be and how to fix.

Hard to argue with the above. I hope that what I said about the video isn't taken as me thinking I have things figured out. It was a breakthrough for me because this is the first time I've had a stroke work quasi-consistently against any sort of feed - multiball, robot, drill, anything. I see it as the foundation for me to get better in matches and nothing more than that. The Akron club starts again this Wednesday and I'll have a chance to work on consistency vs drills, multiball, and practice matches; but in the meantime I'm just happy my body is almost doing what I tell it to do.

 

[Der_Echte]

True, USA, until now never really had any of the promising juniors really break into the WR100 and seriously challenge for the US Title...

The very good reason for all this is that by the time a junior approaches WR100 level he or she realizes that there is no financial future in TT and you gotta do something to eat.

The geezers who were WR20 or better play level, even with years off are better than WR100 (or whatever top USA jjunior) once they get some practice...

Look who won the woman's title this year.... she coaches full time and should have dropped two levels... but then again, she used to be former CNT player... ditto for Wang Chen... ditto for Gao Jun a few years back...

The guys who won the title in the 90s and 2000s era were also former WR20 level regardless if they competed...

USA doesn't have too many problems developing outstanding competitive junior players... (at huge expense to parents...) but the issue is there is zero chance for a good player to make a living from TT, they realize it right around they are 1 and go to University.... since there is no real path for money in TT in USA.

So that is why all our good junior players fizzle out. Kanak Jha is an exception as his parents fund his TT and guy plays in Europe in a league.

Anyone wanna come over to USA and try to get rich from TT? Anyone wanna try and just make enough to pay for rent? Pay for meals? Even in Korea a lot of my good TT friends had to do chicken and beer bets daily just to eat a meal and not starve.

 

[NextLevel]

Big difference between Waldner and Persson with no years off and Butler with 15 years off.

Waldner and Persson could probably come close to winning the US national title now if they were American.

It is not as different as you think. The point is not about the level of play, but that a world class player after retiring and coming back from injury was still capable of playing at a high level many years after he came back. This is easier in TT than in other sports because a lot of TT is mental and related to reading the ball. I suspect that if the rules still allowed hidden serves and we went back to celluloid balls, Waldner and Persson could still compete with the young guns. The plastic ball killed a lot of that.

 

[NextLevel]

People don't realize that Jim Butler was still capable of beating 2700 Chinese players in the US after he came back from retirement. So his highest level wasn't low, it was mostly his energy and consistency that suffered.

 

[NextLevel]

Hard to argue with the above. I hope that what I said about the video isn't taken as me thinking I have things figured out. It was a breakthrough for me because this is the first time I've had a stroke work quasi-consistently against any sort of feed - multiball, robot, drill, anything. I see it as the foundation for me to get better in matches and nothing more than that. The Akron club starts again this Wednesday and I'll have a chance to work on consistency vs drills, multiball, and practice matches; but in the meantime I'm just happy my body is almost doing what I tell it to do.

Understood. You made the comment about drills vs matches and the key difference is the ability to read the ball. It is why I encourage people to play matches slowly and with proper technique rather than with power. Let the other person hit the ball and learn to touch it with the proper technique. When the game slows down and you read it better, it will be easier to apply your power.

 

[NextLevel]

True, USA, until now never really had any of the promising juniors really break into the WR100 and seriously challenge for the US Title...

The very good reason for all this is that by the time a junior approaches WR100 level he or she realizes that there is no financial future in TT and you gotta do something to eat.

The geezers who were WR20 or better play level, even with years off are better than WR100 (or whatever top USA jjunior) once they get some practice...

Look who won the woman's title this year.... she coaches full time and should have dropped two levels... but then again, she used to be former CNT player... ditto for Wang Chen... ditto for Gao Jun a few years back...

The guys who won the title in the 90s and 2000s era were also former WR20 level regardless if they competed...

USA doesn't have too many problems developing outstanding competitive junior players... (at huge expense to parents...) but the issue is there is zero chance for a good player to make a living from TT, they realize it right around they are 1 and go to University.... since there is no real path for money in TT in USA.

So that is why all our good junior players fizzle out. Kanak Jha is an exception as his parents fund his TT and guy plays in Europe in a league.

Anyone wanna come over to USA and try to get rich from TT? Anyone wanna try and just make enough to pay for rent? Pay for meals? Even in Korea a lot of my good TT friends had to do chicken and beer bets daily just to eat a meal and not starve.

These are the problems of TT all over the world. Not enough culture and support to in financial consideration to make the top player base well funded.

 

[Der_Echte]

NL.... yup... even in Korea, it is tough. An ex-pro player takes a risk opening up a club in a declining market.... and we all consider Korea to be one of the best countries for TT.

Well, at least Barney Reed got a coaching/TT Boss gig at Google (even if he makes average Google engineer salary, rent in a local apt would be 90% of his take-home pay) , so it isn't totally mission impossible in USA, but very few can go right into TT as an adult and make even rent money, that is about right in USA and any lands as you say.

 

[Lula]

Is you Ecthe and the other guy the same guy? i was thinking about it but it felt a little funny to ask.

I also think it is hard for everyone to make a living of playing tabletennis. But i do not know if it is harder for smaller tabletennis nations? maybe, i would think that atleast when i was young that i would have had bigger opportunities to become good or atleast better if i played in another "smaller" tabletennis nation than sweden. If i played for denmark, norway, finland or the USA or somewhere elese maybe i could have gotten the chance to play in some youth national team were they invest in you and help you to become better. I was nowhere near something like that in Sweden.

I agree that a player could comeback after years of not playing and still play good. But i think it should be a higher chance that Walder or Persson win the Swedish Championship since they actually kept on playing, had a chance to adjust to all the changes and maybe even become better in some parts of the play. I still find it crazy that the guy could be away from tabletennis for so long and still win. Even worse that i do not think he seems to be so good when you watch some videos. That means i may be mistaken and he is better than he looks or the level was not good that year. Either way it is bad sign for both Sweden and USA that so old players is still able to win the national championships.

What does the guy do at Google? is he a coach at google? haha, sound crazy!

I know that Malin pettersson, one of swedens biggest talents ever?? is working at Spin and help to start up new Spin Places and i can imagine she is paid pretty okay so it is possible to work with tabletennis and earn an okay living.

 

[thekleifheit13]

Understood. You made the comment about drills vs matches and the key difference is the ability to read the ball. It is why I encourage people to play matches slowly and with proper technique rather than with power. Let the other person hit the ball and learn to touch it with the proper technique. When the game slows down and you read it better, it will be easier to apply your power.

I might print this out and keep it in my bag, because I automatically go into "KILL EVERYTHING" mode the second a match starts. I'm in very good physical shape but it takes me 2-3 days to recover from league night because I exhaust myself so badly trying to hit every ball with 110% effort. I think a lot of that issue starts with me being in a hurry and starting the stroke way before reading the ball.

 

[Lula]

I might print this out and keep it in my bag, because I automatically go into "KILL EVERYTHING" mode the second a match starts. I'm in very good physical shape but it takes me 2-3 days to recover from league night because I exhaust myself so badly trying to hit every ball with 110% effort. I think a lot of that issue starts with me being in a hurry and starting the stroke way before reading the ball.

The game is more physical with the new ball so it is harder for the body. But i feel that if you are in good physical shape and still need to recover 2-3 days you might need to work on your technique. Maybe im totally wrong here, just guessing. But then again i played my first tournament last week and my foot became swollen and i could barely walk. one week later, i still have problems so maybe i should not be the one who say something about this haha

 

[Der_Echte]

Lula, An injury and exhaustion are different issues, Der_Echte (nor BH-Man) do not think you are talking out Ur Azz at all.

...but yeah, if one is decent fit and still takes 2+ days to get over feeling all tore up constantly after just a couples hours of matches (maybe 5 or 6) shouldn't tear one up like that and there are likely a few inefficiencies...

 

[Der_Echte]

In USA, you might count on a few hands the number of people who can make any living from TT in any capacity at the moment.

If you are in USA and want to make some money from TT you need to have a day job or drive Uber at night or something.

2500 level full time coaches in USA frequently do not make enough money to pay for an apartment rent and a used car and eat to avoid starving in the city where they coach.

Private lessons cost 50-80 USD an hour from a 2500--200 level coach... but unless that coach owns the gym, then they are getting a LLOT less than the price of lesson. If they own the TT gym, they need to pay 500 to 10,000 USD a month just to pay rent and electric. They need 100 tt club members and 25 students taking weekly lessons just to break even on expenses.

In USA, it isn't easy to be a pip player coach.

 

[Der_Echte]

Having said all that about poor chances for making any money with TT in USA, a friend of mine just became owner of possibly the largest TT club in our country... with excellent possibilities to continue good income and growth. He will still need to pay attention to the local and national market, and be a good businessman, but he has a great chance to make TT pay for his living there.

 

[Lula]

In two weeks from now I am going to lead a training's camp with two hours training per day for a total of five days. Its an optional course kids at a local school can visit during their holidays.

Now I am looking to put together a set of cool beginners exercises, and I wondered if some of you guys done similar things and are willing to give me some tips or inspiration. Ofc I am happy for every suggestion

Today im going over to check their equipment to see what I am working with. I know they have standard school gym stuff and tt-tables. The bats I can provide through my club.

Cheers

Maybe you can go try to go trough the basic technique like grip and how to do forehand and backhand. But do not talk to much, kid do not have good attention span.

Maybe you can do warm up like when kids run around the tables and hit against you at one table, or fast feet exercises by the table or maybe skipping rope.

I think it is best to do very easy exercises so the ball goes over the net alot and it will become alot of play. And throw in that they can count how many balls they do at a certain time, or first to 100 scream stop and do small games in the exercises, like maybe first to 11 in bh bh.

Then just do some easy exercises like warm up fh fh and bh bh diagonal or straigth. The letter, where one play straight and the other diagonal then change. one bh, one fh or two bh and two fh. The irish, where you do 1 bh 1 fh then 2 bh 2 fh and so on. 2 point forehand from one of the corners, or 75 % footwork. Falkenbergaren, one bh, one fh all from the bh corner then one fh in fh. The werewolf, one bh, fh in the middle, bh and fh from fh. Can also mirror this and do the opposite. Maybe one in the middle then bh or fh and back to middle. Can proably do alot of irregular exercises of those above.

Easy serve and return exercises like short short, serv short and long in the bh then loop, the same with the fh, the last two exercises but with block back.

matches like variations of the winners table.

There are some, but i think you can find alot of content on the internet and you can make up alot of exercises with your imagination.

Once again i think that aslong as the exercises is fairly simple, and throw in counting in them and games in the exercises it will go well.

Good luck!

 

[perham]

I’m going to Berlin for a 3 day work trip starting tomorrow, and I’ll be mostly free at nights. Anyone who wants to play a bit of TT?


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[Der_Echte]

Sounds like a Goon Squad meetup opportunity.

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