Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

Footwork -

If I do not incorporate the basic footwork into each drill or exercise, I feel I am severely handicapping a player.

As much as it seems I am more tactic and technique oriented, I also agree with the Asian coach approach in the huge importance of footwork in the success of a shot.

A player will fail early on when trying to employ 2 step or crossover footwork to get into a decent position to make a shot, but I feel it is very important to make this a part of each drill, so with time, executing effective footwork is done without thinking and looks effortless.

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I think the emphasis of footwork is balance and recovery. The other details will fall into place once those are accounted for. If you learn to keep the core tight including the hips so that they are springy and also to recover in balance after non kill shots, you are on the right path.

 

[thekleifheit13]

Played last night at UAkron and finally got video. Will upload when I get home but maaaaaaan is it not pretty. Results-wise I did better than ever, but I would have lost all my matches 3-0 if I didn't have serves or strategy. Bottom line is I need to loosen the hell up when I play, square my feet to the table a little more, and not tense my arm to my fullest ability on every. single. forehand. I still had a lot of fun but it's unfortunate to see that I look so awkward after feeling like I've made improvements.

 

[Der_Echte]

I think it is complicated...

I will say though that it isn't smart to dedicate time to the short push if sufficient time hasn't been dedicated to reading serve length. Reading the ball is the most important and the least emphasized skill in table tennis.

True,

It is not my intention to spend huge time at the short push now, but I feel it is important to ramp that up much earlier than the 1800 or whatever level where a lack of short push is a liability.

I still believe the time invested in learning touch is important.

Some things are not time efficient learned by trying to perform them at combat speed right away.

Serving is an example where a progressive approach to learn whip and impact off table by spinning ball and allowing to roll ball for stage 1, step back 6 feet from table for high arching serve bounce once on serve side once on other, and all to spin back for stage 2, stage three to do it at combat speed, but not worry about height over net. Then stage 4, refine first bounce and height over net.

There are too many moving pieces to do it all at once at the table and be effective with time and progress.

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[mart1nandersson]

I still believe the time invested in learning touch is important.

I agree 100%. I was quite surprised two weeks ago when I spent three evenings with Spårvägen here in Stockholm. The head coach of the mini training camp got us to do BH/BH and FH/FH push during the warmup just as long as we did the usual FH/FH and BH/BH drive/topspin warm up. He got a few complaints by the really senior (and quite highly ranked) players but it was quite evident that they also needed to practice this. He informed us that this is something that he forces all training groups up to cadet levels to do.

I've included this in my warmup routine and I think it already upped my game a bit. It's quite fun to do it if you mix up aggressive pushes with really short.

 

[Lula]

The latest years i have strongly believed in shadow training. No reason to practice and do the motion wrong.

The last weeks i have also noticed to do the strokes slowly so we are able to do them correct. By doing so we will learn the motion faster i think. I have more thought that we should play slowly so we could get many balls over the net and get to practice the strokes as many times as possible.

Pretty funny that i have not thought so much about this since i like shadow training.

I tried to work on two players forehand feet some weeks ago and both played as hard as they could. It was to hard to play so hard and at the same time learn how to stand with the feet. I am working on my bh loop and in the beginning i looped pretty hard since i thought that i need to accelerate to do the correct stroke. But when the ball comes back faster and faster it is to difficult for me to do the correct stroke.

So now i do shadow training at home. Then when i practice i do the stroke very very slow. As long as i do the stroke correctly the ball will be okay. I noticed this when i played to hard, that everytime i missed i did the wrong stroke, and every time i hit good i did the correct stroke. So now i only try to learn the stroke by playing very very slow. The players that have played some years that i coached today, that i proable will beat with my left hand played harder than me. They also need to play much slower and do the stroke correctly. No reason to play hard and do the wrong stroke.

I do not know why i have not thought about this before. Feel that i have repeated myself alot here, but maybe you got the point and can also learn from this. I think i will learn my stroke much much faster by doing this.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Duly noted. neglected to mention i have the 7 min rotator cuff solution book and do the exercises from it.

THANK YOU CARL!

Just don’t over do that stretch. Our shoulders are complicated joints. If you are not careful and gentle with it, you can use that stretch to really mess your shoulder up.

Most adults are tighter with those on one side than the other. I can clasp with either side. There are two movements to that stretch. One arm goes above the head to reach behind towards the space between the shoulder blades. The other arm goes down and behind the side towards the space between the shoulder blades. My left arm can do both of the movements better than my right. But I can do it on either side.

But the shoulder girdle has 3 joints that participate in most movements.

1) The Gleno-Humeral joint. This is what most of us think of as the shoulder joint. It is the ball and socket joint between the humorus (upper arm bone) and the joint joint surface on the scapula.
Scapula = shoulder blade.
Glenoid cavity = socket part of the ball and socket joint in the shoulder.

2) Acromio-Clavicular joint. This is the joint that attaches the scapula to the clavicle.
Clavicle = collar bone.
Acromion Process = a protruding aspect of the scapula that attaches to the medial head of the clavical.

3) Sterno-Clavicular joint. This is where the clavicle connects to the the sternum.
Sternum = breast bone.

The scapula glides on the ribs of our upper backs. But it’s only connection to our axial skeleton is through the acromio-clavicular joint and the sterno-clavicular joint.

One of the things that makes our shoulder joint so subject to injury is that, when a movement should happen in one of those three joints and the joint does not want to make the movement, our shoulder translates that movement to one or both of the other two joints.

What I saw a few years ago in OSPH’s FH stroke was that movements that should have happened in his Gleno-Humeral joint were instead occurring in the other two joints.

OSPH: I have an odds on bet that when you try that stretch, you are over using the acromio and sterno clavicular joints instead of making the movements that should happen in the Gleno-Humeral joint. And you cannot consciously control that.

Be very very careful with that stretch. It could cause more harm than good for your shoulder.

And if you want to increase the flexibility of your shoulder you should be doing exercises to strengthen your rotator cuff muscles. Not that stretch.

Peace.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

The latest years i have strongly believed in shadow training. No reason to practice and do the motion wrong.

The last weeks i have also noticed to do the strokes slowly so we are able to do them correct. By doing so we will learn the motion faster i think. I have more thought that we should play slowly so we could get many balls over the net and get to practice the strokes as many times as possible.

Pretty funny that i have not thought so much about this since i like shadow training.

I tried to work on two players forehand feet some weeks ago and both played as hard as they could. It was to hard to play so hard and at the same time learn how to stand with the feet. I am working on my bh loop and in the beginning i looped pretty hard since i thought that i need to accelerate to do the correct stroke. But when the ball comes back faster and faster it is to difficult for me to do the correct stroke.

So now i do shadow training at home. Then when i practice i do the stroke very very slow. As long as i do the stroke correctly the ball will be okay. I noticed this when i played to hard, that everytime i missed i did the wrong stroke, and every time i hit good i did the correct stroke. So now i only try to learn the stroke by playing very very slow. The players that have played some years that i coached today, that i proable will beat with my left hand played harder than me. They also need to play much slower and do the stroke correctly. No reason to play hard and do the wrong stroke.

I do not know why i have not thought about this before. Feel that i have repeated myself alot here, but maybe you got the point and can also learn from this. I think i will learn my stroke much much faster by doing this.

In the martial arts, there is a saying:

"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."

Groove it slowly, be sure form is correct, before progressively speed up.

 

[NextLevel]

True,

It is not my intention to spend huge time at the short push now, but I feel it is important to ramp that up much earlier than the 1800 or whatever level where a lack of short push is a liability.

I still believe the time invested in learning touch is important.

Some things are not time efficient learned by trying to perform them at combat speed right away.

Serving is an example where a progressive approach to learn whip and impact off table by spinning ball and allowing to roll ball for stage 1, step back 6 feet from table for high arching serve bounce once on serve side once on other, and all to spin back for stage 2, stage three to do it at combat speed, but not worry about height over net. Then stage 4, refine first bounce and height over net.

There are too many moving pieces to do it all at once at the table and be effective with time and progress.

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Brett was really good at this. Consider joining TTEdge if only for a month or two. He will elevate your coaching. He made me understand that you don't learn to control the ball by trying to put it on the table all the time.

 

[Lula]

I have also trying to implement touch or "feeling" in my trainings. Do not know how much it give them, maybe a little and maybe fun sometimes. The kids i coach do not train so much and do not play as much as i do. I have played alot of lefthanded matches and penhold for fun after my training. They do not do this. So i am trying to put in some lobbing, loop loop or short matches with the wrong hand sometime. I have a hard time doing this because i feel that is almost a waste of time, but maybe good if they can develop the feeling. Do not know really if feeling works this way. It was a friend that suggested this, so i will try it.

What do you guys think about this? waste of time?

and once again, if i can get all my players to focus more on the correct form by doing some shadow training and play much slower and focus on the correct form i think their developement will go throught the roof. Mine to.

 

[mart1nandersson]

What do you guys think about this? waste of time?

I think that this is a great way of building fun into the training sessions. I've witnessed a lot of training sessions (prior to my own practice) run by J. Wall in Norrtull with the 9-13 year olds and he always seem to finish his sessions with silly stuff like this and the kids love it. At one time he even forced them to use their shoes instead of a racket. It can't be wrong looking at his results with this kids.

 

[yoass]

Funny thing is, seems to be no place for the push (or the counter, for that matter) in todays training curriculum.

I let people push, practice length, placement, and quite often it’s a first for the players. Strange, it used to belong to the basic tenets.

 

[mart1nandersson]

Funny thing us, seems to be no place for the push (or the counter, for that matter) in todays training curriculum.

I let people push, practice length, placement, and quite often it’s a first for the players. Strange, it used to belong to the basic tenets.

There's also quite a bit of technique involved in pushing which isn't being taught. Not just simple things like taking the ball extremely early but also things like how to use the wrist to a maximum. It was a real eyeopener to me.

Pushing quite aggressively is not exactly ideal with my super fragile Rozena rubbers

 

[Der_Echte]

Funny thing us, seems to be no place for the push (or the counter, for that matter) in todays training curriculum.

I let people push, practice length, placement, and quite often it’s a first for the players. Strange, it used to belong to the basic tenets.

Push is the most common shot at the 1000 USATT level... if the rally goes more than 3 shots, someone was pushing. If someone want to be able to be good at the 1000 level... and also the 2000 level... one needs to push well.

Larry Hodges wrote a long piece about many things a player must get right to push with high quality. It is a good thing to search and read it on his site.

Pushing is so important for those two levels as when your push isn't quality, it will cause your odds of losing the point to be very high.

Learning pushing off the bounce also helps in getting to the ball on serves, so one can later push short, when they see the ball better... the touch would be there or close enough to develop it.

 

[Der_Echte]

There's also quite a bit of technique involved in pushing which isn't being taught. Not just simple things like taking the ball extremely early but also things like how to use the wrist to a maximum. It was a real eyeopener to me.

Pushing quite aggressively is not exactly ideal with my super fragile Rozena rubbers

Carl and Next Level will verify this little story illustrating how a push, even at above 2000 level can still give you chances.

Several years back, Next Level had cracked the 2000 USATT level and was easily a solid 2000+ level player. Next Level would say often enough in his posts that you would get murdered at 2000 level if you pushed serves as your response.

So, when I got a chance to play a match vs Next level at NYISC (42nBack Painz club) guess what Der_Echte generally did to a serve? Yup. Mostly pushed.

However, I used a lot of variation. I showed early on that I could push heavy without making a real long motion. Once that was established, I switched between real light spin and heavy spin, plus changed depths, placement, and angles.

I got my share of errors or chances to attach if NL declined the invite to attack the push.

It worked out well... vs a 2000+ class of player... and I was on the same East Coast rated upper 1800s/lower 1900s.

Maybe I was an exception to Next Level's proper belief that pushing serves to a 2000+ class offensive player is a good way to get on the path to lose that match. I agree with him, most cases, that is exactly what will happen. You push, 2000+ player is going to read it and make winner after winner... or strong pressure shot.

I found a way to increase my quality or make him guess, which helped my odds and took some pressure off of me.

Carl and Edmund Suen had to have been laughing their tails off watching the match… I bet Carl told Edmund what I was going to do. I think before the match, I think I told Carl I took what Next Level was saying as a challenge... even if Next Level was right about saying what he did.

 

[NextLevel]

Lets just say I served a lot of backspin serves back then. I serve a lot more sidespin and topspin now. I would actually wager the same bet with DerEchte now and I am still 2000. Thr only difference is that I have played for 7 years not 4, and my serves are not all heavy backspin any more. Even DerEchte struggles to attack behind his heavy backspin serves if they get pushed.

 

[NextLevel]

There was also another match 6 months later at Lily Yip. I think I had stopped serving backspin then. How did that go?

The matches are online - what people can see is very straightforward - if people do not return William's serve badly, his level drops considerably. It has very little to do with pushing my serves.

 

[Lula]

I think it can be good to train pushes, as long as you train and try to push aggressive. If you have a good counterloop an aggressive push May be a better option than playing short.

 

[NextLevel]

I think it can be good to train pushes, as long as you train and try to push aggressive. If you have a good counterloop an aggressive push May be a better option than playing short.

But not if you can't read the serves.

 

[Lula]

But not if you can't read the serves.

No returns are good if you can not read the spin haha. Proably easier to push long than play short if you have trouble Reading the spin i think.

 

[Loopadoop]

I think it can be good to train pushes, as long as you train and try to push aggressive. If you have a good counterloop an aggressive push May be a better option than playing short.

Back in the late 38mm ball era, I shut down a Japanese penhold attacker, 2000+ who had beaten players up to 2300, using a bh super heavy push with the maximum amount of wrist. I was using a very sticky top sheet Juic 999.