Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

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What do we mean with verified coach? if you have it as a fulltime job? Or that people know that you are a coach?

I think it can be some coaches here that have been coaching part time and been doing so for several years so they probably know somewhat much. Very difficult to get it as your fulltime gig. Also think that some people do not chose to have it as their fulltime job.

Lula, you once said you did not enjoy mytt as much because the posters there were too aggressive. Was it really that? I suspect it is more because you have no connection to people there. Part of the reason I post more here is that we went out of our way to change that here and the moderating team and ownership encouraged us.

This coaching thing is a bit of a digression. "Verified Coach" is simply a TTD title. What we mean is that peop pl e should be willing to discuss and give evidence of the level they play at as well as how long they have played so we can all put their comments into perspective.

When I said I don't push short, we had a conversation about it. I could have posted video as well but everyone knows my channel. When DerEchte shares video vs. Scooby Doo, we can all see it. When NDH says his backhand is weak, we can see the video and judge. When you say you want to use Tenergy, it is very different from me saying the same or JeffM saying the same on some ways given experience, training hours, playing level etc.

In life in general, science and statistics try to provide rules. But complicated things like table tennis, the rules are grounded in experience and make assumptions that are not always shared.

No one is saying that people should not comment because they don't have good playing level. In fact, some of my favorite commenters are not high level players. I think of suds79 or Oldschoolpenholder. So why do I like them? They do not pretend to know things they do not. They let you know their level so you can put their statements in context. They share their frustrations and successes.

But when you tell someone they are wrong in table tennis, it is never really an objective statement. Wrong about what? There are so many assumptions. Should you deny the first attack? Or try to let the opponent attack and then counter? Should you pivot? Play backhands instead of pivoting? Loop like Timo Boll? Or Ma Long? Or Dima? Or Keinath? Or should you just have your own stroke and try to improve it but make sure it has the basics? Should you have many serves or just a few? Should you focus on tricky serving or just work on denying the attack and rally? Should you hit or loop? Many answers depending on many things.

Having a larger playing arm when you use your arm to play TT without doing other exercises to balance things is common. Now if someone says it isn't, there are two approaches. The first is to say they have never heard of it despite playing table tennis for 30 years. The other is to say they have seen people say it, think they are wrong and here is why.

If you take the approach of acting like your way is the only way, you had better be willing to man up when people ask about your background and level. Because too many people think they understand table tennis by watching it.

And I know good coaches who were not great players. But I do not know a good coach who didn't spend a lot of time trying to develop other players. Many players have good ideas but you only become a coach when you have tried to make other players better and see the sweat and tears. It will make anyone humble.

Part of the reason I like adult learners is that on some level they coach themselves. So I will NEVER dismiss anything an adult learner says if he provides his playing level. We can disagree and debate it but he is explaining how he sees it and while it might not help me, it might help someone else who thinks like him. And if you know how hard it is to train and improve in this sport at an older age, that is not trivial.

Sorry for the long rant again. But this topic of people telling me how to play or how well I play without knowing how long I have trained or played or my issues and not providing any evidence of their experience has a deep history with me.
 
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This is so well put ! ... just wanted to tell you the same when you posted yesterday as well , you did a much better job of explaining our common pet peeve about community members volunteering opinions without establishing their credibility in some way or other

... and just so you guys know ... I have learnt as much about table tennis technique and how to think correctly about table tennis by participating in conversations here in TTD as by paying 80$ USD twice a week taking lessons from national level coaches ... I don't want to demean the quality of coaches and their advice in any way ... which I have tried to follow but its also important to know , understand and value other opinions and discussing your findings with other community members ... it just helps to broaden the horizon ...

I am sure there are a lot of players here who have benefited from debating here ... so yes I owe a lot to TTD community, not just by learning about table tennis but also making some of my close friends starting from here ... ask Der_Echte, Carl , NL , JeffM , OSP , David Mu ( lurks here sometime ) ... just to name a few ... . and I personally think its part of our job here as members to call out opinions which appear malformed or ill informed ... has nothing to do with personal egos or who is right and who is wrong ...

You might not see me participating a lot these days , primarily because I don't like getting into altercations over trivial matters ... but when I see somebody I know trying hard to improve and I think I can help with my two cents ... I will always volunteer my opinion ... as you guys would have seen NL did question some of my opinions and it was totally fine for me to try and explain where I was coming from and also to understand where NL was coming from ... .

The challenge is increasingly our mindset is becoming binary .. right or wrong .. but when you are in a discussion .. both can be right , both can be wrong and both can be both right and wrong :) ... as long as we explain where we are coming from it helps others to put it in perspective ...

Lula, you once said you did not enjoy mytt as much because the posters there were too aggressive. Was it really that? I suspect it is more because you have no connection to people there. Part of the reason I post more here is that we went out of our way to change that here and the moderating team and ownership encouraged us.

This coaching thing is a bit of a digression. "Verified Coach" is simply a TTD title. What we mean is that peop pl e should be willing to discuss and give evidence of the level they play at as well as how long they have played so we can all put their comments into perspective.

When I said I don't push short, we had a conversation about it. I could have posted video as well but everyone knows my channel. When DerEchte shares video vs. Scooby Doo, we can all see it. When NDH says his backhand is weak, we can see the video and judge. When you say you want to use Tenergy, it is very different from me saying the same or JeffM saying the same on some ways given experience, training hours, playing level etc.

In life in general, science and statistics try to provide rules. But complicated things like table tennis, the rules are grounded in experience and make assumptions that are not always shared.

No one is saying that people should not comment because they don't have good playing level. In fact, some of my favorite commenters are not high level players. I think of suds79 or Oldschoolpenholder. So why do I like them? They do not pretend to know things they do not. They let you know their level so you can put their statements in context. They share their frustrations and successes.

But when you tell someone they are wrong in table tennis, it is never really an objective statement. Wrong about what? There are so many assumptions. Should you deny the first attack? Or try to let the opponent attack and then counter? Should you pivot? Play backhands instead of pivoting? Loop like Timo Boll? Or Ma Long? Or Dima? Or Keinath? Or should you just have your own stroke and try to improve it but make sure it has the basics? Should you have many serves or just a few? Should you focus on tricky serving or just work on denying the attack and rally? Should you hit or loop? Many answers depending on many things.

Having a larger playing arm when you use your arm to play TT without doing other exercises to balance things is common. Now if someone says it isn't, there are two approaches. The first is to say they have never heard of it despite playing table tennis for 30 years. The other is to say they have seen people say it, think they are wrong and here is why.

If you take the approach of acting like your way is the only way, you had better be willing to man up when people ask about your background and level. Because too many people think they understand table tennis by watching it.

And I know good coaches who were not great players. But I do not know a good coach who didn't spend a lot of time trying to develop other players. Many players have good ideas but you only become a coach when you have tried to make other players better and see the sweat and tears. It will make anyone humble.

Part of the reason I like adult learners is that on some level they coach themselves. So I will NEVER dismiss anything an adult learner says if he provides his playing level. We can disagree and debate it but he is explaining how he sees it and while it might not help me, it might help someone else who thinks like him. And if you know how hard it is to train and improve in this sport at an older age, that is not trivial.

Sorry for the long rant again. But this topic of people telling me how to play or how well I play without knowing how long I have trained or played or my issues and not providing any evidence of their experience has a deep history with me.
 
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One could better classify what we understand of private tt coaches into four titles - Trainer, Leader, Coach, Consultant.

A lot of coaches are just trainers... pretty much the Korean club coach... drill the dogshyt out a ya.

Leader - Not many coaches lead individuals or groups or organizations. We expect coaches to lead though.

Coach - This is the skillset of getting people to realize their skills, attributes, and trait... then getting them to realize where to go and assist them. Many coaches do not coach.

Consultants - Many coaches are paid consultants... much like a company hiring a tax specialist to assist senior management with policy

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Coaching Adults

I have read about problems by players getting any real results.

I personally think it is easier to coach adults than children because most of them have played another sport, so they have good eye hand coordination. I can significantly increase their skill level easily. For example I am playing an adult who can't handle my serve. I tell him how then keep serving it until he gets it, instant gratification.
 
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Coaching Adults

I have read about problems by players getting any real results.

I personally think it is easier to coach adults than children because most of them have played another sport, so they have good eye hand coordination. I can significantly increase their skill level easily. For example I am playing an adult who can't handle my serve. I tell him how then keep serving it until he gets it, instant gratification.

What level of players do you coach, loopadoop? What is your playing level and how many years have you been playing or?
 
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I have been playing for quite sometime , but as a trained amateur since around 2011 , with gaps depending on availability of players and facilities. I play approx. 8-10 hours in a week which is not much in amateur terms. My rating is around 1700 USATT

AHA!!! My USTTA (way back before they changed it to USATT) was 1350! When I first joined the forum, i was a little bold and rounded up to an even 1400 LOL Seriously though, I practice like I'm ~1600, but my play has been 1400ish. A few months ago, I posted a match with 42andbackpains and we both were 1300-1400ish in the match LOL

monster, 9 points please!! :)
 
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OSP,

In a Korean club, you are Div 5, Monster is upper Div 4...

All you get is 2 points handicap (2 for first level, then 1 for every level after) and you gotta like it or else... you buy all the beer and chicken after TT. :D

You get 4 from me, I was Div 2... maybe if I crack 2000 here I would be Div 1... then it would be 5 pts.
 
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re: coaching

Sometimes some of the lower level members of my club ask me questions as they see me practice and see me a little better than them. The first thing I always tell them I'm not qualified to coach/teach. Do not watch me and copy me as I am in the process of reinventing my game. I played for 7 to 10 yrs as a kid, took a 32 yrs break thinking i retired from TT, but came back to the game. Been playing about 4 yrs now and for the past 2 yrs ~ 3 nights a week of 2-3 hrs/night. I tell them all upfront. I then say to them, this is what and why I do what I do. Try it or don't try it. See if it works for you.

I see 2 younger members who play PH and sometimes we talk. I gave both tips (you are standing too square to the table, stand bladed a bit more; you are block/punching too much, try to use your FH more; take your time, don't rush your shots, etc) ... for now, they have not made adjustments I mentioned. I'm a slow learner, so I know for me to change something, will take time. Or perhaps they think I'm BSing them. Another member is always trying to get me to play him, one time he showed up early enough, and he was next and we hit. Ever since then he shows up too late and is always asking to hit with me. I return the ball steady for him and let him groove his strokes. I'm not a 'good player' in our club, but I'm a little better than him and I'm easy-going and approachable. Would like to pay it forward and help his game. Last night, I was getting ready to leave and he was next to me. We were watching 2 "good players" hitting. I mentioned to him, there are times you won't be playing, those are the times you should watch good players hit. See their strokes, see their coordinated body movements, see when and where they hit the ball, see them adjust to the ball, etc. Sadly it seemed to fall on deaf ears. He was looking elsewhere so he can find a table to play on.

re: suds' question of how long to stick to new gear

Due to the technology changing during my 32 yrs absence from the game be it rubber, sponge, blades or ball size or ball material, and also do to my practice still trying to find/groove my strokes and be steadier and improve, i will be stubborn and stick to a rubber/blade much longer than most. I used to play with Chinese tacky rubbers, preferred Friendship from the 1980's. So much has changed since then. So i have no real informed knowledge of what blades do what, which rubbers are better for this, etc.

I just play and hit with them for many months. My strokes/game is in a state of flux as it is, so I try to adapt myself to the equipment.

An aside: Tonight, I broke out Der_Echte's gift of the Nexy Amazon blade, put on MX-P and tried it again after not having played with it in a little over a year as I went to Butterfly Taksim carbon blade. I can now understand what Der and PingPongHolic's comments on the Nexy Amazon. Der said it should be used close to the table and PPH said he can't use it for his style which is a few steps away from the table. For the past 6 months, I have started to be 2 or 3 steps away from the table and noticed I needed to have a much forceful stroke to return the ball. Although I only put on one rubber and left the backside bare. I will put on a rubber on the back and play with the Nexy Amazon soon.

re: my improvement

For the past year, I've worked on RPB starting from the ground up with block/punch/flat hit. Occasionally I will spin. I used a slightly unorthodox grip with extended fingers for 7 maybe 8 months. After about 4 months of using the unorthodox grip with curled fingers, I'm finding my RPB is more consistent, partly due to the ball not hitting my fingers as much, but also, my timing and strokes are getting steadier.

One member I haven't hit with in 3 yrs or so, saw me hitting FH and BH last week and said I improved. It was a funny comment to me, as I feel I did improve, however when I hit with him, I just returned the ball steadlily so he can groove his stroke. A member there acts as a coach and coached him. She asked me to hit with him and it was his third time hitting at that time. He didn't see my skill in returning the ball steadily so he can progressively amp up his power/speed. He just saw me as passively returning the ball. I got a good chuckle. Many of the lower level members at my club all think they are good. There are good players there, they sometimes watch them. So they should have an idea of what 'good' is. But they watch me passively returning the ball steadily and think they are good and I'm not.

I do not know if it is me, having seen good players hit, knowing I'm not good, knowing skill is also relative, or if it's an Ego thing for them to help them sleep through the night and acting like they are good.

Tonight I hit with a member whom I've hit with 2x before. It was very cold tonight and low turnout early. So we had the table to ourselves. I hit with him 30 to 40 mins. He kept missing the ball. I picked up many balls. My knee is acting up a little. I have a brace on visibly. The ball is on his side, he doesn't even go pick it up, sees me gimping to pick up the ball and he just stands there. He kept missing and the ball goes through the door behind me and i gimp out to pick it up. It's not in my nature to say to him, you keep missing, let's switch sides. Kind of expect him to think of it, but yep, you guessed it, he didn't. After 25 or 35 mins of me just 'blocking' for him, I finally FH loop. I go easy on my first, expect the ball back and will progressively amp up the power/speed. He didn't even block my first loop back. He then stands on his FH side, so i think he may TPB block for me. Nope! He RPB counter-loops me!!

I have been nothing but a gentleman tonight with him. Did not complain or vent to him, although I am partially venting here, but more stating facts. Probably my last time hitting with him.

---------------

sorry for long post, if anyone has read through it all, thank you ... lol at me!!
 
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OSP,

In a Korean club, you are Div 5, Monster is upper Div 4...

All you get is 2 points handicap (2 for first level, then 1 for every level after) and you gotta like it or else... you buy all the beer and chicken after TT. :D

You get 4 from me, I was Div 2... maybe if I crack 2000 here I would be Div 1... then it would be 5 pts.

NO FAIR!!! SPOILSPORT!!!!


LOLOLOL .... you know I luv u right, Der!
 
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Same here william ... the range of movement is not actually gone but I have to push/pull it with the other arm to reach the same spot ...

When i hurt my shoulder 2 or 3 years ago, i met up with Carl. He asked me to move my arms in various directions. He saw something that was causing my arm a different range of motion than my left. Although it could be partly due to the pain, prior to this injury, 20 yrs ago, I noticed I cannot clasp my arms behind my back. With my left on bottom and my right on top, they can reach closer. My left can reach between my shoulder blades.

With my right on bottom and left on top, my right is touching my kidney only, cannot even get it to my spine. I think Carl (or 42andbackpains?) though said that most adults cannot clasp their hands behind their back. So it was normal.

I periodically try stretching using a towel or a stick but have made no progress yet.
 
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When i hurt my shoulder 2 or 3 years ago, i met up with Carl. He asked me to move my arms in various directions. He saw something that was causing my arm a different range of motion than my left. Although it could be partly due to the pain, prior to this injury, 20 yrs ago, I noticed I cannot clasp my arms behind my back. With my left on bottom and my right on top, they can reach closer. My left can reach between my shoulder blades.

With my right on bottom and left on top, my right is touching my kidney only, cannot even get it to my spine. I think Carl (or 42andbackpains?) though said that most adults cannot clasp their hands behind their back. So it was normal.

I periodically try stretching using a towel or a stick but have made no progress yet.
 
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NO FAIR!!! SPOILSPORT!!!!


LOLOLOL .... you know I luv u right, Der!
I take it that means you are picking up the tab on the next assembly of Goon Squad in NYC ??

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When i hurt my shoulder 2 or 3 years ago, i met up with Carl. He asked me to move my arms in various directions. He saw something that was causing my arm a different range of motion than my left. Although it could be partly due to the pain, prior to this injury, 20 yrs ago, I noticed I cannot clasp my arms behind my back. With my left on bottom and my right on top, they can reach closer. My left can reach between my shoulder blades.

With my right on bottom and left on top, my right is touching my kidney only, cannot even get it to my spine. I think Carl (or 42andbackpains?) though said that most adults cannot clasp their hands behind their back. So it was normal.

I periodically try stretching using a towel or a stick but have made no progress yet.

Just don’t over do that stretch. Our shoulders are complicated joints. If you are not careful and gentle with it, you can use that stretch to really mess your shoulder up.

Most adults are tighter with those on one side than the other. I can clasp with either side. There are two movements to that stretch. One arm goes above the head to reach behind towards the space between the shoulder blades. The other arm goes down and behind the side towards the space between the shoulder blades. My left arm can do both of the movements better than my right. But I can do it on either side.

But the shoulder girdle has 3 joints that participate in most movements.

1) The Gleno-Humeral joint. This is what most of us think of as the shoulder joint. It is the ball and socket joint between the humorus (upper arm bone) and the joint joint surface on the scapula.
Scapula = shoulder blade.
Glenoid cavity = socket part of the ball and socket joint in the shoulder.

2) Acromio-Clavicular joint. This is the joint that attaches the scapula to the clavicle.
Clavicle = collar bone.
Acromion Process = a protruding aspect of the scapula that attaches to the medial head of the clavical.

3) Sterno-Clavicular joint. This is where the clavicle connects to the the sternum.
Sternum = breast bone.

The scapula glides on the ribs of our upper backs. But it’s only connection to our axial skeleton is through the acromio-clavicular joint and the sterno-clavicular joint.

One of the things that makes our shoulder joint so subject to injury is that, when a movement should happen in one of those three joints and the joint does not want to make the movement, our shoulder translates that movement to one or both of the other two joints.

What I saw a few years ago in OSPH’s FH stroke was that movements that should have happened in his Gleno-Humeral joint were instead occurring in the other two joints.

OSPH: I have an odds on bet that when you try that stretch, you are over using the acromio and sterno clavicular joints instead of making the movements that should happen in the Gleno-Humeral joint. And you cannot consciously control that.

Be very very careful with that stretch. It could cause more harm than good for your shoulder.

And if you want to increase the flexibility of your shoulder you should be doing exercises to strengthen your rotator cuff muscles. Not that stretch.

Peace.


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Coached a player second week in a row.

Was able to allocate more time to drills than explanation of concepts and techniques. First lesson was necessarily heavier on concepts and approach.

I still place a very high importance on conveying the reasons why some thing is, how to do it, how different factors tie in, how fundamentals affect the outcome, how to adapt in a point for the shot, its tactical advantages and disadvantages...

These kind of things tie into what a player is doing and must be assessed, calculated, and decided upon at a subconscious level to function effectively.

This comes from learning the factors, doing enough effective drills, and applying, failing, adapting in points.

No single one coaching session will get an adult player in an early developmental stage to jump a level or suddenly greatly jump in consistency and quality of shot, but a good foundation is very important for future strategic growth.

However, for players who have enough development, sometimes a revelation of a certain aspect is huge. Next Level reports this happening several times.

We were ambitious to cover several important areas.

Serve
Serve Receive
Pushing
Blocking
Countering
Tactics of Placement
Intro to Basic Footwork (1 step, 2 step, power hop, crossover)

I discuss my overall approach on the next post... and as much as it seems I would clash with Lula, my way to address things is very similar to Lula's way.




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Lula strongly believes it is a waste of time to train on things a player will not or rarely use in a match.

I also believe one should strengthen ones strong areas and leverage them to win points. It is a no-brainer common sense approach.

Another consideration is future strategic growth. One needs to look forward and r to alize what one needs to do to play at a certain level and develop shots, sequences, and tactics needed at that level.

The decision of exactly what and when to start training is very subjective. The factors affecting the decision are basically a matter of preparing ahead to make a foundation so w bh em the time comes, it is much easier to grow when the moment is right.

An example would be short receive of serve. A player at 1000 usatt level and some at 2000 level can get by with all the variation of a long or half long push... but at a certain level, you get murdered doing that, so laying the foundation to grow that shot should start much earlier than that level.

I encourage even 1000 level players to dedicate some time to that short push... it develops touch that can be applied in other shots. That isnt a waste of time and is an example of a high payoff investment over time.

In one way, it is training something not used in a player's level of game, but later it is appropriate for the level... so the judgment of whether it is a waste or not lies with the player and coach.

I feel I am not coaching, guiding or leading if I am not getting a player to think about strategic growth and prepare effective ways.

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Footwork -

If I do not incorporate the basic footwork into each drill or exercise, I feel I am severely handicapping a player.

As much as it seems I am more tactic and technique oriented, I also agree with the Asian coach approach in the huge importance of footwork in the success of a shot.

A player will fail early on when trying to employ 2 step or crossover footwork to get into a decent position to make a shot, but I feel it is very important to make this a part of each drill, so with time, executing effective footwork is done without thinking and looks effortless.

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Lula strongly believes it is a waste of time to train on things a player will not or rarely use in a match.

I also believe one should strengthen ones strong areas and leverage them to win points. It is a no-brainer common sense approach.

Another consideration is future strategic growth. One needs to look forward and r to alize what one needs to do to play at a certain level and develop shots, sequences, and tactics needed at that level.

The decision of exactly what and when to start training is very subjective. The factors affecting the decision are basically a matter of preparing ahead to make a foundation so w bh em the time comes, it is much easier to grow when the moment is right.

An example would be short receive of serve. A player at 1000 usatt level and some at 2000 level can get by with all the variation of a long or half long push... but at a certain level, you get murdered doing that, so laying the foundation to grow that shot should start much earlier than that level.

I encourage even 1000 level players to dedicate some time to that short push... it develops touch that can be applied in other shots. That isnt a waste of time and is an example of a high payoff investment over time.

In one way, it is training something not used in a player's level of game, but later it is appropriate for the level... so the judgment of whether it is a waste or not lies with the player and coach.

I feel I am not coaching, guiding or leading if I am not getting a player to think about strategic growth and prepare effective ways.

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I think it is complicated...

I will say though that it isn't smart to dedicate time to the short push if sufficient time hasn't been dedicated to reading serve length. Reading the ball is the most important and the least emphasized skill in table tennis.
 
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