Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

So this match I found interesting, featuring TTD's Victor Moraga:

And as I looked at it more, this made it even more interesting:

Why did I find it interesting? It was a good reminder that technique isn't everything.

 

[dingyibvs]

So this match I found interesting, featuring TTD's Victor Moraga:

And as I looked at it more, this made it even more interesting:

Why did I find it interesting? It was a good reminder that technique isn't everything.

I thought the main thing it showed is that service and receive is still the most important part in winning TT games on the amateur level. Beyond that stage Victor's superior technique clearly dominated the game, he just lost badly on the service/receive game before getting there way too often.

 

[NextLevel]

I thought the main thing it showed is that service and receive is still the most important part in winning TT games on the amateur level. Beyond that stage Victor's superior technique clearly dominated the game, he just lost badly on the service/receive game before getting there way too often.

Interesting position. I think serve and receive are the most important aspects of the sport at all levels si I find your observation fascinating.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

I thought the main thing it showed is that service and receive is still the most important part in winning TT games on the amateur level. Beyond that stage Victor's superior technique clearly dominated the game, he just lost badly on the service/receive game before getting there way too often.

i agree, Victor has the best looking shots. But he really has a problem receiving the BH serve, whether is backspin (net miss) or knuckle (flick going over).

I think there was not also enough variation (spin or placement) or quality ? in the first attack so that he got countered immediately way too often.

the other guys shot seem more awkward but they are effective, he was also quite accurate with his FH smash. obviously his serves were good

 

[AndyK]

I've played this kid twice in tournaments (I lost both times). His technique is a little awkward, but he's got a lot of match experience and is used to grinding out tough wins against higher ranked players since he was half his current height. His Dad has emphasized keeping it very simple and cutting out unforced errors. The kid's backhand serve to the rightie forehand came straight from the Dad's toolkit and I've seen a number of 2200+ players dump them into the net. If you do receive the serve, the kid is ready with his short whippy backhand or his deceptively powerful forehand loop. His counter game is also strong and he thrives in the topspin world since he's had thousands and thousands of reps in the last 7-8 years. His main weakness to me is lifting heavy underspin on either side, but I'm sure he's working on that as well...

 

[dingyibvs]

Interesting position. I think serve and receive are the most important aspects of the sport at all levels si I find your observation fascinating.

My initial plan when I started playing TT was to train the things in the order they happen in TT. First the service/receive, then the push, then the opening loop, then re-loop (never got to counter loop but that would've been next). That served me well to raise my level quickly, but then I ran into an interesting and unexpected problem.

Because my first few steps were so effective, I was able to simply serve/receive, then 3rd/4th ball FH attack and the point was generally over against most players. As a result, I had weak rally skills, weak defense, and weak backhand. As I inched up in level, and it's inching up by then after the initial rapid rise due to the imbalance in my game, I fell back even more on my strengths. The only thing I managed to improve significantly during this period of time was my re-looping abilities. If ever I was attacked, the point was basically lost. So much so that I actually developed a nasty habit of not even moving when I see an opponent about to loop, because I knew if he lands it then I lost. This is even though my footwork otherwise is a lot better than average, able to cover a lot of ground for an attack when I'm looking to be on the offense.

That's why this time around, I'm gonna work on my service/receive game last. I'm gonna play the long game. A relatively poorer service/receive game will give me more opportunities to play defense, force me to use my BH, and engage in more rallies, transition between FH/BH more, etc. All the things I wouldn't be doing if I could just blast a loop-drive past my opponent on the 3rd/4th ball.

 

[daisy7]

I thought the main thing it showed is that service and receive is still the most important part in winning TT games on the amateur level. Beyond that stage Victor's superior technique clearly dominated the game, he just lost badly on the service/receive game before getting there way too often.

yeah , i strongly agree

 

[JeffM]

Today I had a good hit in the weekly session.

The strong player that I played last time didn't turn up, but I got to play with a player whom I haven't played before. He actually has a custom bat, so I know he is a TT enthuasist. His old bat got sat on and the handle broke off He didn't come last week as he was waiting for his new one to come.

I played with him first. He is an old guy in his 70s, who likes to chop with his bh, despite using inverted rubbers. His handicap is -6, but he was happy to start 0-0 with me. It was actually good for me as I got to practice looping against backspins and pushes etc. There were a few close sets, but I won 4-1.

Then I played with a weak player, had to do the whole -9 thing, while he starts at +2. He had to go so he only wanted to play best of 3. This time I just go for it. I try to attack most things, and it felt good despite sometimes the point ending sooner than usual, most of the time if I land, he couldn't get it back or he got 1 back but then I followed up and he couldn't. 2-0 for me.

Then I played with the 2nd strongest player I encountered at the club. Last 2 times I beat him 4-1, and 4-2. His play style is up close to the table and just using angles to make me run. I took the first set relatively easily, 11-6. Then second set I think I lost in duece, then he took 2 more sets.. so I was 1-3 down. My forehand usually kills him, especially when I loop his backspin pushes down the line. So he starts focusing on my bh. It was then that I realised I need to improve my backhand. Somehow I got back and won 4-3. Used lots of serve variation. When I serve fast to his bh, he likes to deflect it down the line, so I serve fast backspin to his bh and he couldn't do that. When I loop his backspin pushes with my bh, he would be ready to play the angles again, as my bh loop is no where as fast as my fh. so I need to be ready. Sometimes he would play the angle out to my fh, and I feel at times I rushed to get to the ball and hence gave him a weak return to follow up, where as if I try to give myself slightly more time, I can play a proper forehand loop with spin, he would then have more difficulty playing the angle game with me.

It was a good session overall. I see my weakness. I am trying to convince ppl to 'practice' with me. At the end, after I beat him, I got him to play some fh and bh with me. Then I got him to play the game where you can only use fh and hit to their fh corner etc. and bh etc. He just beat me with the bh game, but I won the fh game. It is an interesting one, as we did the bh game first, and when I was slightly behind, I tried to hit stronger and then I kept ending up in the net. I will try that game again next time and try do some proper loop instead of just counter hit.

Knees are doing fine, and that is most important to me.

 

[thomas.pong]

Finally tried the boosted H3 Prov 39' OS on my W968 National last night, I definitely have to make some adjustments and get used to the feel but it’s promising (and it'll feel even better once the topsheet is broken in). It obviously helps in the short game and open ups, big components of the game where I can use a lot of improvement, as few points go past this stage and into longer rallies. So I think it can have a positive impact on my game with eventually a couple more points won per set. I'll stick to H3 for at least the next few weeks, I think it'll also help me improve my FH overall, it lets you know right away if the shot was decent or garbage as it's not forgiving, and the feedback I get from W968 helps me know if I hit the ball in the right spot or not.

I lost the first 2 sets close against a decent player I usually beat 3-0, making the same several mistakes. I adjusted in some areas by the 3rd set and won it and the next 2 to win the game. We played another game and I won 3-0 feeling fairly at ease in areas I usually struggle more with.

I also received a used W968 Provincial today I traded for. It'll be interesting to compare to the National version.

I played against players a bit better than me now, where the sets are very close, but they win the game more often than not, and it was more of the same as what I had described previously with the H3: obvisouly helps me in the short game and short/long open ups and gives me a lot more confidence and the ability to correct some things and make adjustments on the spot which is all I can ask for. I'm winning more points overall and I really enjoy the predictability H3 gives me. The fact that my bat angle is more open on the FH also helps in my transitions from one wing to the other. The topsheet feels quite broken in now and it feels great! I also haven't felt a huge loss in speed compared to the fast and enjoyable Hammond Z2, it's about the same at mid-distance and feels more powerful close to the table, far from the table less speed but it makes up for it in spin and power.

I ran drills for 3 hours yesterday with my practice partner who's 200-300 above me, and I was definitely more consistent and accurate especially down the line, and he often commented on how much spin was on the ball or couldn't block it at times even when I was going 60-80%, so everything points towards me sticking with it for a long time to come. It helps me in many areas and forces me to correct others in a very obvious way. i didn't expect my allegiance to switch to DHS but there you go.

 

[latej]

The excitement when a boosted rubber wiggles, full of energy, in hands like gelatine...

ONLY 1 other thing in the world wiggles better than that! Don't ban me...

 

[dingyibvs]

So I played in the local club tournament today, a 2100-2200 guy showed up. He coaches sometimes at the club but doesn't play in the league very often. Lost 3-0, but scored plenty of points. In rallies I wasn't really behind, but I got destroyed in the service/return game. I don't seem to be able to return topspin services, and that's gonna be the theme of the day.

I played another guy I beat a couple weeks ago, lost 3-0 there as well. The games were very close, but again I had so much trouble with topspin services. I've been trying to be more aggressive with service returns, but it just wasn't working today. Also annoying was the cold, humid weather in Cali. I think it even snowed in LA county, truly a rarity. It's just rain here though, and my rubbers just accumulate moisture so quickly. I can mitigate it by wiping it between every point, but I forgot to do it for this match and was missing all shots, even FH shots. He plays a controlled style, even his loops are kind of half snake half loop type of ball. Usually I eat those type of shots up, returning them with big power loops, but this match I couldn't hit the broad side of the barn.

Against another guy I'd never lost to, it was again the topspin services that got me. I was down 10-4 in the 5th set and finally I gave up and started returning more conservatively. I then won 8 straight points to win the match, including a massive counter loop for the final point that he couldn't even come within 3 feet of. I did remember to wipe my rubber between every point. Still, it's a loss in my mind because I couldn't execute my objectives of being more aggressive with service returns.

Another game was against the Jpen guy with LP on his BH side. He switched to SP on the FH this past week, which suits his game fairly well. He doesn't loop much, and when he does it's the slow spinny type which isn't much of a threat against the top group opponents. I think he missed a few more shots than usual due to the rubber switch, but I also missed a few more service returns than usual due to more aggression so it probably evened out. I beat him again, so ended the day 2-2.

My BH progressed throughout the day, which I was pleased about, just need to keep working on the consistency. Now I'm scheduled to start working on my FH, I think I'll keep this part fairly short, as I really want to start working on my serves and returns.

Ah, so many holes in my game, I want to work on them all! It's exciting to see all the areas I need to work on, but also frustrating that I can't work on them 24/7! In working nights the next couple of days, and that's usually pretty exhausting, so that means I can't really work on my game again until Sunday. Very annoying. I'll also be working late next Thursday so I can't play in next week's league, but that's OK as I need practice right now to cement my new FH motion.

 

[dingyibvs]

Since I'm working nights and can't really play these couple days, I've been formulating a training plan. I think here's what I'll do.

Phase 1: FH training will be almost exclusively FH, this is to set my form. It won't be perfect, but it'll be fine for a long time to come. Each practice session I'll gradually increase the pace and add more and more variations to location, height, speed, length, etc. When my FH muscles are too tired, I'll do some BH training to help improve my consistency. Right now my BH form is actually better than my FH form due to past 3 months of systematic training guided by recordings and instructional videos, but consistency is still way less. I'll probably post some videos for some guidance here.

Phase 2: start mixing some BH shots into my FH training. The focus is still on setting my FH form, but this time making sure that I can maintain my form even when transitioning from the BH side. I'm hopeful that this phase won't take too long.

Phase 3: start doing what was previously BH drills with my FH, basically practicing whole table FH shots. Only use BH when necessary. This will basically be an extreme version of week 2. I'll tire out very quickly, so I'll mix in a lot of more stationary BH practices, with a focus on hitting shots down the line.

Phase 4: start doing more balanced FH/BH drills. I'll basically combine my FH and BH drills into one big drill, with each shot having a 50% chance of coming with a 10% delay so the pace will vary.

That'll be the rough rubric, and if I'm slow to reach my goals then I'll delay the invitation of the next phase. I really don't want to though, as I do really want to start service/receive/short game trainings which will be the phase after. That's probably the phase that'll improve my win/loss ratio the most, but I can't rush it as I need a good FH/BH foundation in order to attack long services effectively so it needs to build on top of the previous weeks' trainings.

 

[latej]

Since I'm working nights and can't really play these couple days, I've been formulating a training plan. I think here's what I'll do.

Do you plan to include drills with back-spin balls? From your description it is not clear.

I'd vouch for variability, i.e. having drill with back-spin too.

 

[latej]

Who do you bet on? I bet on QD.

When in doubt, always bet on Quantum Dynamics...

 

[Richie]

Who do you bet on? I bet on QD.

When in doubt, always bet on Quantum Dynamics...

Don't discount the DJ, he might put us in a trance.

 

[NextLevel]

So I skipped playiing on Friday this week and played on Saturday. I expect to play later today as well.

I finally have some decent footage (though unedited) of me playing and struggling with good opposition as well as stuff that you can use to criticize my game and my advice on anything. Unfortunately, when I practice/play (and some of you might notice this in my videos online, my underwear tends to show. I think I finally fixed that but who knows.., anyways on to TT related things.

This match is too long obviously, but hopefully people can watch the first game and give me some tips, moreso because we have a lot of SP expertise here. BTW, this was my only loss yesterday, and it has me wondering whether I should go back to all wood lol.

The match begins at 4:45 in the video.

 

[dingyibvs]

Do you plan to include drills with back-spin balls? From your description it is not clear.

I'd vouch for variability, i.e. having drill with back-spin too.

Yes, but I won't mix backspin with topspin in the same drill as it's almost impossible to tell which spin it is coming from a robot until it hits the table.

 

[latej]

Yes, but I won't mix backspin with topspin in the same drill as it's almost impossible to tell which spin it is coming from a robot until it hits the table.

Understand. Sometimes I do that, e.g. drill with 3 balls, the robot plays:
1. short back-spin serve to FH
2. long push to FH (to force me to jump back)
3. top-spin ball to FH

I usually play this with 60/min speed. Here I miss the option to set variable delay between balls - I'd prefer the delay between 2 and 3 to be shorter than delay between 1 and 2, and then I'd prefer longer delay between 3 and 1. But that is not possible on Amicus Expert.

 

[dingyibvs]

Understand. Sometimes I do that, e.g. drill with 3 balls, the robot plays:
1. short back-spin serve to FH
2. long push to FH (to force me to jump back)
3. top-spin ball to FH

I usually play this with 60/min speed. Here I miss the option to set variable delay between balls - I'd prefer the delay between 2 and 3 to be shorter than delay between 1 and 2, and then I'd prefer longer delay between 3 and 1. But that is not possible on Amicus Expert.

I do that sometimes too, but obviously I can't do random shots when mixing spins due to the reason mentioned above. I find the lack of randomness to be a big issue, and I just don't find the transition from looping backspin to looping topspin a difficult one. So instead of mixing topspins in I just use backspin of various depth. This way I won't know if I need to step back to loop or lean forward to push/flick.

 

[NextLevel]

My initial plan when I started playing TT was to train the things in the order they happen in TT. First the service/receive, then the push, then the opening loop, then re-loop (never got to counter loop but that would've been next). That served me well to raise my level quickly, but then I ran into an interesting and unexpected problem.

Because my first few steps were so effective, I was able to simply serve/receive, then 3rd/4th ball FH attack and the point was generally over against most players. As a result, I had weak rally skills, weak defense, and weak backhand. As I inched up in level, and it's inching up by then after the initial rapid rise due to the imbalance in my game, I fell back even more on my strengths. The only thing I managed to improve significantly during this period of time was my re-looping abilities. If ever I was attacked, the point was basically lost. So much so that I actually developed a nasty habit of not even moving when I see an opponent about to loop, because I knew if he lands it then I lost. This is even though my footwork otherwise is a lot better than average, able to cover a lot of ground for an attack when I'm looking to be on the offense.

That's why this time around, I'm gonna work on my service/receive game last. I'm gonna play the long game. A relatively poorer service/receive game will give me more opportunities to play defense, force me to use my BH, and engage in more rallies, transition between FH/BH more, etc. All the things I wouldn't be doing if I could just blast a loop-drive past my opponent on the 3rd/4th ball.

You probably know this, but just about everyone at the amateur level has an imbalanced game. No one can learn everything at once, and we are forced to learn what we don't have other time if we want to get to the next level or even maintain, either to prevent people from exploiting our weaknesses easily or to find ways to score points more efficiently. My primary strength was my blocking game and backhand play even up to about 1900. I tried to totally change my game to be more forehand oriented after I hit 2000 for the first time with some success, but there are major arthritic issues that keep me in check.

Even having better rally skills may just prevent you from losing to a certain kind of weaker player, it might not necessarily help you beat a stronger player. I suspect you had no formal coaching because you did it in a good way (IMHO), a coach might just have kept it more in balance. But a lot of the top level is serve and receive, though receive can be a bit confusing because sometimes poor receive can be saved by good rallying. But more often, poor receive leads to the loss of the point on average. And I would argue that while you might do basic serves, there is absolutely no point in doing basic receive, one has to learn to play behind their best receive strokes, though serve is more ambiguous to me because if one is not using universal short forehand serve strategy, the best serve is really opponent dependent.