Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[blahness]

Yeah, you just have to give them credits for being a good server. It is a nightmare trying to read whether is a topspin or underspin when the hand movements are the same.

Yes. Also it's my fault coz I taught him how to disguise it and control the length better, now I can't read it myself 😭 the worst is because it's mostly short to half long to the FH. If it's too long the FH short receives (flick, fade, long/short push) don't work very well, and I'm forced to loop a ball which I can't tell what spin is on it. If I try to loop and it's short my percentages also go down a lot.

 

[blahness]

Get your camera and record the serve. It is always easier to pick up things when you don't have to win the point.

I observed him playing with another guy and he was also winning a lot with this serve. I could read it easy from the side or back angle but not when I'm looking from the front angle. The biggest problem is that there's an exaggerated followthrough with throwing the elbow up (which makes it look like heavy sidetopspin all the time which it isn't). Also he can serve sidetopspin with the flatter bat angle with this followthrough which doesn't help.

 

[JeffM]

Speaking about pendulum side top or side under, I have watched alot of videos but I still don't think I can perform it properly. I understand the theory, that you are doing one swing like a pendulum, and where the contact is with the ball: e.g. on the way down, horizontally, and on the way up dictates the under, pure, or top side spin. But in practice, I seem to be doing under like 99% of the time even if I am trying to do side, and then when I try to do top, it is only side..

I find the bat angle for side under to be very natural, then if I were to change to side or side top, I seem to have a higher chance to miss the ball or the area contact is small?

I am hoping if someone can enlighten me on this serve.

Do you need to have your elbow up for side and side top? Even if elbow up, is that for both? And how do you alter it? If someone can explain or with video, that would be much appreciated. Thanks

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

It's not about receiving them, but about reading the spin and placement. I mainly want to read whether it's sidetopspin or sideunderspin.

It's really a nightmare once ppl learn how to serve both spins with nearly the same racket angle and movement...

BH serves are usually way easier to read imo.

You actually have to watch the arc and bounce of the ball. Backspin has a flatter trajectory. Topspin has more arc. Even when someone is good at making the arc of the ball look similar, if you are really watching the ball, you can see top vs backspin.

Maybe you think about it as practice trying to watch the arc of the ball to learn to read the spin that way.

And if the topspin is heavy enough, you should be able to see the ball accelerate a little on the bounce. With backspin, the ball slows down on the bounce. But the arc should be distinctly different if you learn to watch the arc of the ball on the serve.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

View attachment 25101
Big & Heavy makes me happy

View attachment 25102
Puny little tooth-pick makes me sad.

I am not sure you are getting what I said. To do a banana (chiquita) you have to turn your wrist and pronate your forearm so that the blade face points straight down towards the table and is fully CLOSED. To do that you have to hold the blade face with the index finger and thumb, with the thumb pressing on the rubber on the FH side.

Having a thinner blade makes this much easier because of the position of the wrist and forearm. I can't imagine someone being able to do this easily with a very thick blade unless they have really big hands. NextLevel's hands might be big enough to do that with your blade. I have a feeling yours are nowhere close to large enough to hold the blade how you would need to for the shot with a blade as thick as yours (10.5mm).

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

I am not sure you are getting what I said. To do a banana (chiquita) you have to turn your wrist and pronate your forearm so that the blade face points straight down towards the table and is fully CLOSED. To do that you have to hold the blade face with the index finger and thumb, with the thumb pressing on the rubber on the FH side.

Having a thinner blade makes this much easier because of the position of the wrist and forearm. I can't imagine someone being able to do this easily with a very thick blade unless they have really big hands. NextLevel's hands might be big enough to do that with your blade. I have a feeling yours are nowhere close to large enough to hold the blade how you would need to for the shot with a blade as thick as yours (10.5mm).

Friend Carl,

I have stated I can't do chiquita. I also stated I have no intention to do chiquita.

Friend Carl is being like the Mandalorian: This is the only way!

I am more of Jane Erso type: Hope! The Rebel Alliance is build on HOPE!

p/s I know a 10.5mm thick is not going to be easy to do chiquita. That is why I don't intend to do it. I can live with it. There are things that it can do better and some it can't. I know and I can live with it.

I do not have to eat oatmeal, I live in South East Asia, I like something else especially if it is sour, spicy and tangy:

 

[NextLevel]

I observed him playing with another guy and he was also winning a lot with this serve. I could read it easy from the side or back angle but not when I'm looking from the front angle. The biggest problem is that there's an exaggerated followthrough with throwing the elbow up (which makes it look like heavy sidetopspin all the time which it isn't). Also he can serve sidetopspin with the flatter bat angle with this followthrough which doesn't help.

You need to look for the cues from the position of the returner or something close to it. The mental photo of the contact is the key, because even if the serves are quick, there is usually something different in the contact point. Some very advanced servers have 4 variations of different spins on a single serve that make the tells hard with fakes for topspin follow through and fakes for backspin follow through that they can do with both the real and fake serve so you need to be wary of relying on follow throughs. But to keep topspin low, you need to serve into the table more and to keep backspin like topspin, the serve has to start from a higher height. With the right camera angle, it is easier to be patient and learn something. There are always subtle differences that show up on camera if you have the right software to put the serves side by side. You can see this on the TTEdge app with how the serves are clearly different even though on real time they might all look similar.

 

[NextLevel]

Speaking about pendulum side top or side under, I have watched alot of videos but I still don't think I can perform it properly. I understand the theory, that you are doing one swing like a pendulum, and where the contact is with the ball: e.g. on the way down, horizontally, and on the way up dictates the under, pure, or top side spin. But in practice, I seem to be doing under like 99% of the time even if I am trying to do side, and then when I try to do top, it is only side..

I find the bat angle for side under to be very natural, then if I were to change to side or side top, I seem to have a higher chance to miss the ball or the area contact is small?

I am hoping if someone can enlighten me on this serve.

Do you need to have your elbow up for side and side top? Even if elbow up, is that for both? And how do you alter it? If someone can explain or with video, that would be much appreciated. Thanks

For the best pendulum serve, you need to have your elbow high on all variations. This is how you get really breaking sidespin that causes returning errors. It is also easier to add variations that break away from the opponent.

There are a few ways of getting side top, one is by pulling up on the left side of the ball after passing through but not contacting the bottom. Another is by serving and contacting the ball closer to the handle (heavier backspin is closer to the tip and comes underneath the ball). But with a true pendulum serve, people can even pop up your side backspin variation as well as your side topspin variation. Or even push it off the side of the table. If your elbow is low, the side backspin tends to be closer to conventional backspin and is much easier to push without popping it up or coming off the side of the table.

 

[blahness]

You need to look for the cues from the position of the server or something close to it. The mental photo of the contact is the key, because even if the serves are quick, there is usually something different in the contact point. Some very advanced servers have 4 variations of different spins on a single serve that make the tells hard with fakes for topspin follow through and fakes for backspin follow through that they can do with both the real and fake serve so you need to be wary of relying on follow throughs. But to keep topspin low, you need to serve into the table more and to keep backspin like topspin, the serve has to start from a higher height. With the right camera angle, it is easier to be patient and learn something. There are always subtle differences that show up on camera if you have the right software to put the serves side by side. You can see this on the TTEdge app with how the serves are clearly different even though on real time they might all look similar.

Yes that's what he does - he serves backspin higher and topspin lower. I also can't rely on the bat angle because he can also serve sidetopspin with the flatter bat angle. From my perspective, if the force is directed downwards, the only way topspin can happen is if the bat angle is more towards 90 deg, otherwise it's always backspin. If the force is upwards, the only way backspin can happen is if the bat angle is very flat, otherwise it's always topspin. The followthrough is always very misleading for sure.

I like what you mention - having a mental photo of the contact. It's something I don't do 😭. I don't have photographic memory unfortunately - how do you train this up?

 

[blahness]

You actually have to watch the arc and bounce of the ball. Backspin has a flatter trajectory. Topspin has more arc. Even when someone is good at making the arc of the ball look similar, if you are really watching the ball, you can see top vs backspin.

Maybe you think about it as practice trying to watch the arc of the ball to learn to read the spin that way.

And if the topspin is heavy enough, you should be able to see the ball accelerate a little on the bounce. With backspin, the ball slows down on the bounce. But the arc should be distinctly different if you learn to watch the arc of the ball on the serve.

Yeah he makes the arc look similar too - the backspin is served faster and a bit higher, the topspin is served slower and a bit lower.

I guess the acceleration is definitely a tell - you can't really hide that. I need to train my eyes to watch it more intently like a hawk!

 

[NextLevel]

Yes that's what he does - he serves backspin higher and topspin lower. I also can't rely on the bat angle because he can also serve sidetopspin with the flatter bat angle. From my perspective, if the force is directed downwards, the only way topspin can happen is if the bat angle is more towards 90 deg, otherwise it's always backspin. If the force is upwards, the only way backspin can happen is if the bat angle is very flat, otherwise it's always topspin. The followthrough is always very misleading for sure.

I like what you mention - having a mental photo of the contact. It's something I don't do 😭. I don't have photographic memory unfortunately - how do you train this up?

You don't need a photographic memory. As in all things in life:

1. Breathe so that you are not tense, and your body isn't in fight or flight response.
2. Focus your attention broadly at on the server, especially looking for when and how the ball is contacted.
3. Whether you see the contact or not, your body will pick up cues. If you play a best of 5, by game 3, whether you like it or not, you will be guessing the spin better as you watch the contact and the ball better and better.

The main issue is the quality of return and how you play on your serve, You need to have a quality return to use on the serve with a forehand flick or deep push or even a short push, so that when you get the spin read right, you can stay in the point. What happens to most people when they cannot read a serve is that they fail to play a quality return either early or late (a late return is not high quality, but it should still be quality, mostly likely deep even if high so you have time to step back and defend) and then this leads to them pissing points even when they read the serve right as low quality returns will get you into trouble against a good attacker.

The other thing is letting the anxiety about the score hurt you on your serve points. Don't feel the pressure to do anything more than to probe the opponent's game for weaknesses. If you can keep almost level on your serve points, you just have to get a few of his serves right to win the match. But you don't have to do this immediately in a best of 5. And you don't have to feel the pressure to do anything special on your serve other than just execute your game. If you lose to him, consistently, he is likely better than you at the moment, but it will even out over time.

Look for serving close to the tip versus closer to the handle. closer to the tip tends to be backspin, closer to the handle tends to be topspin. Also, even with an open bat angle, it is possible to impart topspin on the follow through by coming up slightly on the other side of the ball. This is where looking at the contact closely helps, because even if you don't see the precise contact, combining the contact with the quality of the ball trajectory usually gives you the information you need. because even when he fakes the follow through, you will feel it in the timing of the contact.

If you haven't already tried it use the TTEdge app for a bit. It will tune you in to photographing the contact mentally. The body adapts to anything with practice, you just need to practice. But just as important is having a quality return against the basic serve spin.

 

[NextLevel]

I don't get backspin quite like this because it is too obvious to me. I try to do it by getting the tip to come underneath the ball a bit. But the weak variations and the topspin variations are similar to how I do it. I come up on the left side of the ball. And for topspin, I usually push my body weight down into the table by bending my chest so that the ball stays low and doesn't kick upwards as much.

 

[JeffM]

For the best pendulum serve, you need to have your elbow high on all variations. This is how you get really breaking sidespin that causes returning errors. It is also easier to add variations that break away from the opponent.

There are a few ways of getting side top, one is by pulling up on the left side of the ball after passing through but not contacting the bottom. Another is by serving and contacting the ball closer to the handle (heavier backspin is closer to the tip and comes underneath the ball). But with a true pendulum serve, people can even pop up your side backspin variation as well as your side topspin variation. Or even push it off the side of the table. If your elbow is low, the side backspin tends to be closer to conventional backspin and is much easier to push without popping it up or coming off the side of the table.

Right, thanks.

Yeah I didn't know I would do backspin with the elbow high up, but I guess that is how the disguise comes in to make it difficult for opponent to tell. I am often just doing it with the elbow low as you say and I am only getting slight weaker return if I am disguising it as no spin vs backspin, but not actual top spin.

I will try it next Tuesday.

 

[blahness]

Right, thanks.

Yeah I didn't know I would do backspin with the elbow high up, but I guess that is how the disguise comes in to make it difficult for opponent to tell. I am often just doing it with the elbow low as you say and I am only getting slight weaker return if I am disguising it as no spin vs backspin, but not actual top spin.

I will try it next Tuesday.

You can use the lifting of the elbow to produce sidetopspin, and also as a fake movement to trick opponents into thinking that it's sidetopspin.

So you can go in with elbow slightly lower and then lift it as part of the serve movement.

 

[IB66]

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

This evening I has a great TT experience. Was at my usual coaching session and I had the great opportunity to ask my coach some pertinent questions, that I'm sure all of you are dying to know. Without much ado, here, I present to you a Q&A session:

Q1: Hey coach, why do I have to play close to the table? I wanna be like Aruna or Jang Woojin, running around hitting awesome FH and looking good in-front of the camera.
A1: You fat & heavy. You too slow cannot run like Aruna nor Jang. You play close to table, no run so much. You still have hope to win and go home happy knee no pain.

Q2: Some people I know told me I am using an overly fast blade 10.5mm is just too fast and my ultra fast rubber is too fast. What do you say?
A2:No need listen to other people. They not your coach. I like your 500PSI feel. Continue this.

Q3: How come you never teach me cool stuff like chiquita or strawberry. Hey, I wanna look cool on YT.
A3: You come coaching once a week, sometimes once every two weeks. You busy man. No need to learn so much, you concentrate the basic. You good in basic like FH & BH duraibo / drive, BH & FH open up, cut balls, serve & receive, you already better 110% of amateur players. Do more basic, no think about fruits.

So, there you are! Some pertinent questions answered.

p/s:

The above is a match btw Miwa H vs Sofia P. I looked at Miwa play-style and I say to myself, OMG! This is exactly the type of drill my coach and I do a lot of during our session, albeit at a much slower pace. This certainly brought a smile to my face. I mean for me, it is so fascinating to see how what I do in coaching session can look like in a high international level.

 

[NextLevel]

The deception is good but the elbow position is not optimal. I guess some will say it is a matter of opinion and that Matt is a much stronger player that I will ever be but the high elbow position while difficult to get used to is something I encourage people to try and to see the difference it makes in how much sidespin they produce if they manage it.

 

[NextLevel]

This evening I has a great TT experience. Was at my usual coaching session and I had the great opportunity to ask my coach some pertinent questions, that I'm sure all of you are dying to know. Without much ado, here, I present to you a Q&A session:

Q1: Hey coach, why do I have to play close to the table? I wanna be like Aruna or Jang Woojin, running around hitting awesome FH and looking good in-front of the camera.
A1: You fat & heavy. You too slow cannot run like Aruna nor Jang. You play close to table, no run so much. You still have hope to win and go home happy knee no pain.

Q2: Some people I know told me I am using an overly fast blade 10.5mm is just too fast and my ultra fast rubber is too fast. What do you say?
A2:No need listen to other people. They not your coach. I like your 500PSI feel. Continue this.

Q3: How come you never teach me cool stuff like chiquita or strawberry. Hey, I wanna look cool on YT.
A3: You come coaching once a week, sometimes once every two weeks. You busy man. No need to learn so much, you concentrate the basic. You good in basic like FH & BH duraibo / drive, BH & FH open up, cut balls, serve & receive, you already better 110% of amateur players. Do more basic, no think about fruits.

So, there you are! Some pertinent questions answered.

Again, I really like your coach and he is keeping it real. The best part is that you take the questions other people have here to him and he gives his justification. And that is again more important and more relevant to your improvement than anything we say on the forum. You are now clear that your trajectory for improvement might not be what should be best for a player who gets coaching more often or who trains more seriously or who wants to train a wide range of shots. So as long as the context in which you make your statements is clear, and that you have chosen a specialist drive style that doesn't go for modern all round offense is clear and your goal is optimize that, then it helps put how you are coached in perspective.

 

[dingyibvs]

Speaking about pendulum side top or side under, I have watched alot of videos but I still don't think I can perform it properly. I understand the theory, that you are doing one swing like a pendulum, and where the contact is with the ball: e.g. on the way down, horizontally, and on the way up dictates the under, pure, or top side spin. But in practice, I seem to be doing under like 99% of the time even if I am trying to do side, and then when I try to do top, it is only side..

I find the bat angle for side under to be very natural, then if I were to change to side or side top, I seem to have a higher chance to miss the ball or the area contact is small?

I am hoping if someone can enlighten me on this serve.

Do you need to have your elbow up for side and side top? Even if elbow up, is that for both? And how do you alter it? If someone can explain or with video, that would be much appreciated. Thanks

The key is when to accelerate your bat. Accelerate when you're coming under vs accelerate when you're going up. You're not really gonna get under vs top spins, but heavy under vs mostly sidespin, which is enough to screw up your opponent. It's also harder for your opponent when it's not too short. Make it double bounce or half-long and it limits their angles, their ability to return short, as well as introducing hesitation on whether to loop. I'm having some issues with the latter, as a lot of my short services are triple or more bounces.

 

[Der_Echte]

Jeff, you want moar side on the serve, then tilt the tip of the bat moar downwards. It will also help short serves.

You want sum top on that serve, the bat must be moving on the upwards part of pendulum... if you REALLY have timing, then BACKWARDS at impact. THAT one can really mess someone up if you manage the timing... it so looks like under with the motion.