Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

I've tried to compensate by working in forehand loops when the ball goes off the side of the table. My forehand pushes are not good, so I end up flicking a lot. I mainly run the risk of leaving my backhand side exposed.

Long backhand feels like an option issue. Most of the serves go directly towards me vs off the side, so I don't think I move enough laterally to deal with it. Amazingly, I'm starting to move and react when going against my wide backhand.

People coach and teach these things differently so there are no magic answers. I honestly don't have a confident forehand push either, I am more like Dima, I usually backhand push serves no matter where they are placed because I am tall and my backhand push is much heavier unless I know where the ball is going and it has decent backspin, in which case they are fairly similar. But whether your forehand push is not good because it is a bad stroke or whether it is not good because you are pushing balls that are hard to push unless you accelerate a lot is an open question. But there is nothing wrong with pushing short forehand balls with the backhand, Dima has made that clear, and for even some forehand pushers, it is a cheat code for returning backhand serves and reverse serves to the short forehand if the forehand push just isn't working. What I found helpful was developing enough racket speed with the wrist/forearm to make the spin heavy even if the push popped up, this protected me up to around 1400. Lots of serve practice...

While most people will tell you to use footwork to move into position to return serves, if you are tall, there are alternatives. For me, on every stroke, the most important thing is to judge where the ball will land up relative to your elbow and to get your backswing close to the ball. This will help you line up your forearm better, and even if your footwork or body usage is unconventional, your positioning will make sense relative to the shot. Whether moving the whole body fits your footwork scheme better is a personal thing. But I just try to make sure that I am not doing things that take me too far off balance, but if I can reach and stay in balance, I prefer to do that rather than move unless there is some significant gain from moving.

 

[OvrChkn]

People coach and teach these things differently so there are no magic answers. I honestly don't have a confident forehand push either, I am more like Dima, I usually backhand push serves no matter where they are placed because I am tall and my backhand push is much heavier unless I know where the ball is going and it has decent backspin, in which case they are fairly similar. But whether your forehand push is not good because it is a bad stroke or whether it is not good because you are pushing balls that are hard to push unless you accelerate a lot is an open question. But there is nothing wrong with pushing short forehand balls with the backhand, Dima has made that clear, and for even some forehand pushers, it is a cheat code for returning backhand serves and reverse serves to the short forehand if the forehand push just isn't working. What I found helpful was developing enough racket speed with the wrist/forearm to make the spin heavy even if the push popped up, this protected me up to around 1400. Lots of serve practice...

While most people will tell you to use footwork to move into position to return serves, if you are tall, there are alternatives. For me, on every stroke, the most important thing is to judge where the ball will land up relative to your elbow and to get your backswing close to the ball. This will help you line up your forearm better, and even if your footwork or body usage is unconventional, your positioning will make sense relative to the shot. Whether moving the whole body fits your footwork scheme better is a personal thing. But I just try to make sure that I am not doing things that take me too far off balance, but if I can reach and stay in balance, I prefer to do that rather than move unless there is some significant gain from moving.

For the second paragraph, I'm trying to picture where to place my body on the backswing. My elbow would be even with the ball?

I have practice against a pusher tonight, so I can get a lot of backhand push practice for sure.

 

[NextLevel]

For the second paragraph, I'm trying to picture where to place my body on the backswing. My elbow would be even with the ball?

I have practice against a pusher tonight, so I can get a lot of backhand push practice for sure.

The backhand topspin is primarily what I have in mind but it applies to all strokes - this is the video that illustrates the main concept later in it. You don't have to use his precise technique though if you did, given his backhand reputation at his peak, that is not a bad thing at all. He beat a lot of good players with that heavy spin backhand technique even if it was celluloid ball oriented.

There was another video I can't find anymore where Brett Clarke argued that a big separator of lower rated and higher rated players is upper arm overuse and elbow positioning. He might not phrase it quite the same way today but the principle is valuable for calibrating your table tennis IMHO.

What is not obvious is that there is a C-shape that a good backhand backswing forms. All advanced backhand topspins have some version of it. It is getting to that C-shape that you need to do relative to the ball to play the backhand in position. The C-shape might end up besides you and in my humble opinion, that is perfectly alright, though some may strongly disagree and say you need to take it in front of you, which I do for most of my backhands for full transparency. Main point is to take it where the backswing is, not to force yourself into a form that might be too slow for your table tennis. It is a fine line for sure, buthopefully it makes sense.

 

[blahness]

My attack is still in PreK, so I gotta brush up on a few things. I wish I could drill more haha.

@blahness Split steps have helped me out a lot to cover the extreme areas. I'm a bit weary on giving a lot of topspin back cause they'll just send it straight down the line on my backhand.

This is why I think the topspin flick is actually inferior to the no spin flick on the FH. The topspin actually makes the return easier for the opponent because they can just borrow the topspin to increase their landing percentages. A fast nospin flick sometimes with residual underspin can be quite the killer especially if you target their weak areas.

 

[OvrChkn]

This is why I think the topspin flick is actually inferior to the no spin flick on the FH. The topspin actually makes the return easier for the opponent because they can just borrow the topspin to increase their landing percentages. A fast nospin flick sometimes with residual underspin can be quite the killer especially if you target their weak areas.

I'm realizing more that my issue is when left handed people serve short on my forehand side. I started to take my time and loop it back, but I'm still getting crushed on the 3rd ball attack. I'll have to try putting no spin on the return.

 

[NextLevel]

I'm realizing more that my issue is when left handed people serve short on my forehand side. I started to take my time and loop it back, but I'm still getting crushed on the 3rd ball attack. I'll have to try putting no spin on the return.

I wouldn't recommend this unless you can be really consistent with it, it is just better to either accept the rally or to place the shot better. Unless your rating is massively different from what you have already presented, there is likely to be a gap of sorts between what you are perceiving and what is really happening that will close over time as you get better. Very few players know how to serve short and tight consistently, so you are probably flicking more long balls than you need to (which is a problem). And if you loop a serve and it gets blocked back at you, you need to look at your placement and combination options first. Spin variation is cool, but it assumes a certain level of touch.

The main thing I would recommend to you is to continue to work aggressively on increasing your levels of (top)spin. A point just comes when you continue to work at it that it becomes almost impossible to lose to a certain level of player and then it becomes more about what it takes to beat the players ahead of you. But the main trap people fall into is that they want to hit the ball harder, not get the spin heavier till it becomes instinctive to produce it at will with the right timing. I fell for this trap for a long time too. When the spin is heavier, you can either use it to improve your power or your consistency as the situation demands it. But without it, you don't have much margin

I know you get coaching and I try to respect that but trust me, I have seen a lot of good and eager adults stagnate because they are being developed by players who took conventional paths to improving their TT, which can be a very different process from making an adult learner see the game better and get better match results just by learning to hit the ball better. I was lucky to be coached by a guy who improved mostly as an adult so he could communicate the problems he solved as an adult learner very well. And for all the issues people could say his students had with respect to footwork etc., I struggle to remember a student of his who did not know how to put serious action on the ball. When you learn to put serious spin on the ball, with the speed of the game at the lower levels, many discussions about "footwork" and "defending the middle" get delayed until later because people have to respond to your ball quality first. Work on making the ball go as slow and spinny as possible, don't care if people tell you that people will smash your topspins. That is how it starts but eventually, people start smashing the topspins off the table unless they know how to properly approach seriously heavy spin.

 

[baynhanh145]

I'm playing with Tibhar SPW and FH Nittaku Hammond Z2, BH Andro Hexer grip. I would like to add more power in my forehand stroke/smash and backhand push. Which rubber do you prefer to suggest for me? Thanks guys!

 

[NextLevel]

I'm playing with Tibhar SPW and FH Nittaku Hammond Z2, BH Andro Hexer grip. I would like to add more power in my forehand stroke/smash and backhand push. Which rubber do you prefer to suggest for me? Thanks guys!

This thread is more about discussing the table tennis you usually play and what happened to you in TT today. You could get more responses by opening your own thread for this. And if you want great responses, it is best to post video of your play. But if not, that is fine as well. Just open a thread to discuss this. You might get responses here, but you are more likely to be ignored unless you regularly discuss your table tennis activities here.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

I'm playing with Tibhar SPW and FH Nittaku Hammond Z2, BH Andro Hexer grip. I would like to add more power in my forehand stroke/smash and backhand push. Which rubber do you prefer to suggest for me? Thanks guys!

MXP
MXP
MXP

 

[blahness]

I'm realizing more that my issue is when left handed people serve short on my forehand side. I started to take my time and loop it back, but I'm still getting crushed on the 3rd ball attack. I'll have to try putting no spin on the return.

If you can loop it it means it's long and you don't need to flick it.... just use your body to loop the **** out of the ball and vary your spin and placement. If they can counterloop your opening loop consistently that means you need to up the quality of your opening loop (especially spin and placement).

 

[JeffM]

I played with old coach for an hour today.

It was a good one as always, and I appreciate his time to do it for me.

I had more practice with the dignics 09c. I don't have issue with its speed now.
One thing I noticed though is in my looping of backspin, when I try to do a thicker contact, it behaves differently than the H3N, where due to the hardness of H3N, the ball will go over the net; whereas today, I found quite a few occasion that I had to do a 'finer' slower loop to ensure the ball goes over the net rather than into the net.
It is still something that I will need more time to get used to, but looping topspin etc feels great. Serving seems ok too.

 

[jk1980]

I know you get coaching and I try to respect that but trust me, I have seen a lot of good and eager adults stagnate because they are being developed by players who took conventional paths to improving their TT, which can be a very different process from making an adult learner see the game better and get better match results just by learning to hit the ball better. I was lucky to be coached by a guy who improved mostly as an adult so he could communicate the problems he solved as an adult learner very well.

This is a very good point. This is also true for tips you get from other players that are better than you are currently.
Take into account what these peoples rating is and how long it took them to get there.
If you get some advice from somebody that has a 1500 rating while playing for 30 years already, then ask yourself if you as a late table tennis learner will be able to afford to only advance to a 1500 rating after another 30 years of playing.

i have had my fair amount of advices given by players that are better and more experienced than me but clearly have plateaued and a pretty low level.
it is definitely better to listen to high level players and take any hint and cue to improvement.
i.e. a 1500 level player might tell you that there is no need to have a lower stance or even use body rotation for playing topspin, while my trainer will complain about me moving into a more upright and not low enough stance when a training drill advances.

things that might work if you do it for 30 years might not be applicable for somebody new to the trade and trying to get to the same level.
we have many players that play a loop from the hip, but not in terms of rotation, but rather as if they were lucky luke shooting his gun while drawing it from the belt and shooting quickly with the hand at belly height. these people have "mastered" that technique to a certain level so it works for them, but learning proper looping technique will give you even more consistency when done right.

 

[NextLevel]

This is a very good point. This is also true for tips you get from other players that are better than you are currently.
Take into account what these peoples rating is and how long it took them to get there.
If you get some advice from somebody that has a 1500 rating while playing for 30 years already, then ask yourself if you as a late table tennis learner will be able to afford to only advance to a 1500 rating after another 30 years of playing.

i have had my fair amount of advices given by players that are better and more experienced than me but clearly have plateaued and a pretty low level.
it is definitely better to listen to high level players and take any hint and cue to improvement.
i.e. a 1500 level player might tell you that there is no need to have a lower stance or even use body rotation for playing topspin, while my trainer will complain about me moving into a more upright and not low enough stance when a training drill advances.

things that might work if you do it for 30 years might not be applicable for somebody new to the trade and trying to get to the same level.
we have many players that play a loop from the hip, but not in terms of rotation, but rather as if they were lucky luke shooting his gun while drawing it from the belt and shooting quickly with the hand at belly height. these people have "mastered" that technique to a certain level so it works for them, but learning proper looping technique will give you even more consistency when done right.

To be fair, I would be roughly a 1500-1700 TTR player in Germany and I am confident that OP would be happy to be a 1500-1700 TTR player in Germany. Your main point is correct - I don't go out of my way to correct or discuss technical issues with much better players unless there are obvious things based on the insights that my coaches have told me. Game reading and feeling can cover up technical deficiencies for sure, but people should appreciate the limitations of their advice and playing level.

But no amount of athleticism will cover up the inability to hit a quality ball with speed or spin, and even if your footwork is poor or your stance is too high, if you hit a quality ball, the opponent has to respond with something. Moreover, there are many players who do improper things but whose insights into TT are helpful for players who do not want to play so physically.

One of the reasons I like watching Tom Lodziak is that he reminds me of myself a lot, someone who got into TT at an older age with bad knees and physical limitations, and who is just enjoying working on his game even if everything is not textbook, even though he clearly understands the textbook. So for me, when I coach, I focus on trying to get the player I am coach to hit a quality spinny ball. Then to be able to vary that quality to get different effects and to shape the ball in different ways. If they can do Falkenberg, great, but if they can read and hit a ball, their results will get better faster and they can work on their footwork while doing that. If a player wants to play and learn textbook, sure, but as an adult, most players would be happy just learning things that win points, and not all those things become useless when you learn the textbook strokes either.

 

[IB66]

To be fair, I would be roughly a 1500-1700 TTR player in Germany and I am confident that OP would be happy to be a 1500-1700 TTR player in Germany. Your main point is correct - I don't go out of my way to correct or discuss technical issues with much better players unless there are obvious things based on the insights that my coaches have told me. Game reading and feeling can cover up technical deficiencies for sure, but people should appreciate the limitations of their advice and playing level.

But no amount of athleticism will cover up the inability to hit a quality ball with speed or spin, and even if your footwork is poor or your stance is too high, if you hit a quality ball, the opponent has to respond with something. Moreover, there are many players who do improper things but whose insights into TT are helpful for players who do not want to play so physically.

One of the reasons I like watching Tom Lodziak is that he reminds me of myself a lot, someone who got into TT at an older age with bad knees and physical limitations, and who is just enjoying working on his game even if everything is not textbook, even though he clearly understands the textbook. So for me, when I coach, I focus on trying to get the player I am coach to hit a quality spinny ball. Then to be able to vary that quality to get different effects and to shape the ball in different ways. If they can do Falkenberg, great, but if they can read and hit a ball, their results will get better faster and they can work on their footwork while doing that. If a player wants to play and learn textbook, sure, but as an adult, most players would be happy just learning things that win points, and not all those things become useless when you learn the textbook strokes either.

It’s interesting that you mentioned Tom, I’ve been having some training sessions with him throughout the summer.
At the end of last weeks session he mentioned that he has to stretch and exercise his legs, knees etc on a daily basis as maintenance for his knees!!!
You are right in that he isn’t textbook in all of his strokes, but he has a lot of coaching experience, played with top quality players and learnt a hell of a lot of techniques, even though he may not necessarily use them himself. But, he can show you them and coach them.

So, after the summers sessions with Tom, I am probably playing the best TT for a long time. I’d say I am playing better than before I suffered a knee injury 17 months ago. At that time I had had maybe 4 sessions with him and was starting to improve my match results, confidence was good, so that injury set me back 17 months or so in total !!!

We have focused on serve, recovery and 3rd ball attack, serve receive, recovery, 4th ball attack. Recovery in rallies, being more controlled and using spin more from 3rd ball onwards, not just trying to blast the ball past the opponent!!!
waiting longer on the BH topspin, I’m prone to being to eager!! Stretching to far forward, taking the ball too early, rushing!! not by much, but enough to reduce consistency, sometimes you have more time than you think you should have!!!
We have done some technique adjustment, some regular drills, maybe for a 1/4 of the session (1/2 hr). Semi regular drills for 1/4 of the session. Irregular play roughly 1/4 of the session, so I serve (recover), anywhere any spin, Tom returns anywhere, play the point. Tom serves anywhere any spin, I receive (recover) play the point.
Then we put some pressure on!! Playing for points!! Same as irregular description but now I want to win!!!! (fat chance!!!)

I have one more session booked for next Wednesday, then the league season kicks in.
I’m the sort of person that needs to be coached, maybe not so much on general technique these days, more on reading spin, reading the game, movement, knowing my game, being more aggressive in a controlled manner. Etc.
I have made a decision to not play for 3 clubs this season, reduced to 2, and not play as many matches. I coach 2 times a week, and gonna try and play just 1 match per week, 3 nights tops, with hopefully a monthly session with Tom.
Confidence is returning, private life issues have settled down, and believe me, stress, causes issues with your game.
Tonight, played at a club and beat a couple of youngsters that thought they would be in for an easy ride!! Last year they played in the same division as myself, they both had 80+% win averages, against my 37%. They were not happy 🐰.

On the equipment front (ok this ain’t an EJ thread), I used my Zhang Jike ALC with Hexer grip on BH and Jekyll & Hyde H52.5 on FH at the last session with Tom, now, I usually use Def rated blades, so I thought that I may struggle, Tom thought otherwise, saying that I have pretty compact strokes, and, as long as I don’t go all out Rambo / Gun Ho, play with more spin as we have been discussing / implementing then it will be fine, and so far so good!!!

 

[NextLevel]

It’s interesting that you mentioned Tom, I’ve been having some training sessions with him throughout the summer.
At the end of last weeks session he mentioned that he has to stretch and exercise his legs, knees etc on a daily basis as maintenance for his knees!!!
You are right in that he isn’t textbook in all of his strokes, but he has a lot of coaching experience, played with top quality players and learnt a hell of a lot of techniques, even though he may not necessarily use them himself. But, he can show you them and coach them.

So, after the summers sessions with Tom, I am probably playing the best TT for a long time. I’d say I am playing better than before I suffered a knee injury 17 months ago. At that time I had had maybe 4 sessions with him and was starting to improve my match results, confidence was good, so that injury set me back 17 months or so in total !!!

We have focused on serve, recovery and 3rd ball attack, serve receive, recovery, 4th ball attack. Recovery in rallies, being more controlled and using spin more from 3rd ball onwards, not just trying to blast the ball past the opponent!!!
waiting longer on the BH topspin, I’m prone to being to eager!! Stretching to far forward, taking the ball too early, rushing!! not by much, but enough to reduce consistency, sometimes you have more time than you think you should have!!!
We have done some technique adjustment, some regular drills, maybe for a 1/4 of the session (1/2 hr). Semi regular drills for 1/4 of the session. Irregular play roughly 1/4 of the session, so I serve (recover), anywhere any spin, Tom returns anywhere, play the point. Tom serves anywhere any spin, I receive (recover) play the point.
Then we put some pressure on!! Playing for points!! Same as irregular description but now I want to win!!!! (fat chance!!!)

I have one more session booked for next Wednesday, then the league season kicks in.
I’m the sort of person that needs to be coached, maybe not so much on general technique these days, more on reading spin, reading the game, movement, knowing my game, being more aggressive in a controlled manner. Etc.
I have made a decision to not play for 3 clubs this season, reduced to 2, and not play as many matches. I coach 2 times a week, and gonna try and play just 1 match per week, 3 nights tops, with hopefully a monthly session with Tom.
Confidence is returning, private life issues have settled down, and believe me, stress, causes issues with your game.
Tonight, played at a club and beat a couple of youngsters that thought they would be in for an easy ride!! Last year they played in the same division as myself, they both had 80+% win averages, against my 37%. They were not happy 🐰.

On the equipment front (ok this ain’t an EJ thread), I used my Zhang Jike ALC with Hexer grip on BH and Jekyll & Hyde H52.5 on FH at the last session with Tom, now, I usually use Def rated blades, so I thought that I may struggle, Tom thought otherwise, saying that I have pretty compact strokes, and, as long as I don’t go all out Rambo / Gun Ho, play with more spin as we have been discussing / implementing then it will be fine, and so far so good!!!

The things you pointed out are the general advantages of working with an adult learner coach, technique is mostly taught as needed to facilitate play and solve typical problems, so you don't spend an inordinate amount of time drilling things you may never use, most of the drilling solves typical problems faced while constructing a point. Most players drive for power rather than play for spin, there are pros and cons to each approach but most adults who play tournaments will take seriously the problem of having a game that travels well, which is easiest to develop with a spin based consistent game with selective power introduction. You can always rejoin the looping juniors if you get sufficiently good and athletic to go that route. But adult learners, maybe because we are not world class, have more respect for fighting to win with technique both armchair loopers and high level coaches would find uninteresting.

 

[blahness]

I played with old coach for an hour today.

It was a good one as always, and I appreciate his time to do it for me.

I had more practice with the dignics 09c. I don't have issue with its speed now.
One thing I noticed though is in my looping of backspin, when I try to do a thicker contact, it behaves differently than the H3N, where due to the hardness of H3N, the ball will go over the net; whereas today, I found quite a few occasion that I had to do a 'finer' slower loop to ensure the ball goes over the net rather than into the net.
It is still something that I will need more time to get used to, but looping topspin etc feels great. Serving seems ok too.

I find that with Dignics, against backspin it's better to just use your hand to brush and the movement relatively consistent, and let the body control the amount and proportion of lift and forward push. I think if you take the feeling of the "thin" brush and add a strong forward component from your right thigh you can make it into a safe powerloop quite easily.

 

[JeffM]

I find that with Dignics, against backspin it's better to just use your hand to brush and the movement relatively consistent, and let the body control the amount and proportion of lift and forward push. I think if you take the feeling of the "thin" brush and add a strong forward component from your right thigh you can make it into a safe powerloop quite easily.

Hi blahness. Yes that is what I’m finding too today. I had a hit today at the club doubles day.
I’m liking the topspin side of things, receiving topspin or no spin serves. Still getting used to looping backspin. Need to get myself out of the mindset of hitting the same stroke as H3.
Otherwise ok.
I’ll have maybe 2 more hit next week before the comp next weekend.

 

[IB66]

The things you pointed out are the general advantages of working with an adult learner coach, technique is mostly taught as needed to facilitate play and solve typical problems, so you don't spend an inordinate amount of time drilling things you may never use, most of the drilling solves typical problems faced while constructing a point. Most players drive for power rather than play for spin, there are pros and cons to each approach but most adults who play tournaments will take seriously the problem of having a game that travels well, which is easiest to develop with a spin based consistent game with selective power introduction. You can always rejoin the looping juniors if you get sufficiently good and athletic to go that route. But adult learners, maybe because we are not world class, have more respect for fighting to win with technique both armchair loopers and high level coaches would find uninteresting.

I think out of all the sessions,, we did multi ball ONCE!!! for 30mins. I actually enjoy multi ball routines!! perhaps we could do a little more of that. I'd enjoy feeding balls to Tom!!!!!!

 

[blahness]

I finally figured out some stuff about how to do a proper penhold TPB chopblock and sideswipe attacking movements with the LPs, and also how to sidespin block in both directions. But TPB has some serious limitations imo, the reach is laughably bad because of the awkward position of the arm. Hats off to those who develop good TPBs lol, they have some amazing footwork to always get to the right place because its kinda intolerant with the positioning. Can't wait for my RPB rubber to arrive.

Funny thing is I later played matches with another reasonably good player with the 2 racket setup - just completely destroyed him surprisingly in 3 games straight (I usually win too but not with such one-sided scores) and he didn't even have any attacking chances at all - I simply got the first attack in with the penhold LP sideswipe attack and then followed it up with my right hand inverted powerloops. Imo he should have just served fast long and let me loop first - serving short is just a bad strategy against LPs.

Just theorycrafting, I can actually now completely overwhelm LP defenders with 1 right hand loop + 1 left hand LP attack, no need for 1 loop 1 push. Loop with heavy ass spin to force the LP pushblock which will create a really heavy underspin ball, then follow it up with a left hand LP/SP attack which borrows the heavy underspin then finish it off with right hand inverted.

 

[JeffM]

I won't have any TT training and gym sessions until I get back to city on Wednesday.

During this weekend, I went to gym instead. Work and job applications have been taking alot of my time and it makes it hard to attend the already seldom table tennis sessions and gym times. Because of that, my fitness is not at my best, but I made sure to work it this weekend, doing all the stuff that I did and cardio, skipping etc to hopefully last me in this shape till next weekend for the competition.

I will have probably 2 more sessions after I get to city before the competition. It will be table tennis every day for 4 days in an row, so it will be tough for the body, but I will try to stay in shape and not get myself injured.