Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[blahness]

hey everyone! wondering how to recieve the half long side-top, pendulum serve.
i can recieve them well on my backhand but on my fh i always end up lifting the ball since i am only used to half long backspin serves.. should the stroke be short? or long and forward?

If it's half long you can loop it. So with sidetop FH pendulum, what I do is I contact the ball with loop stroke going towards the left (because the ball is gonna curve to the left, you should also match it to get max accuracy, i like to think from 2 o clock to 10 o clock). I cover the ball slightly (you don't want too much covering otherwise it becomes too thin brush) and the stroke is directed mostly towards the left and even downwards (mentally at least - video will still show you swinging forward and upward) compared to your normal loop.

 

[NextLevel]

hey everyone! wondering how to recieve the half long side-top, pendulum serve.
i can recieve them well on my backhand but on my fh i always end up lifting the ball since i am only used to half long backspin serves.. should the stroke be short? or long and forward?

Since I gave an incomplete answer, let me add one more point - it is very important in table tennis IMHO to gather information from your "mistakes" as well as your makes. People who only think a shot is good when the ball lands on the table fail to use their mistakes to adjust. If you use your mistakes to understand what you thought was on the ball vs what was actually on the ball based on your stroke, you learn a lot of stuff that will translate to matches and adapting to opponents fairly well. If you only care about putting the ball on the table, and don't try to put balls into the net or off the edge of the table to push the boundaries off of your stroke, you will be unable to adapt your swing to opponents who give you a different ball from the one you usually train against. What swinging forward means might look very different to you than it does to me. But in the end, the ball doesn't lie.

 

[Mikey_TT]

thats true, thx!

 

[netdriver]

getting real tired of the few lesser skilled people in clubs giving me unneeded advice on my techniques

i am far from what ppl consider a good player but it irritates me when i am given unwanted (unnecessary, even) advice from people who mindlessly cream the ball during warm-ups or training

 

[dingyibvs]

I've been practicing my new BH motion the past 3 weeks. So glad I had that training session with the coach, I'm still shocked by how much he fixed in just one session. Before, whenever I watched my recorded practice strokes my BH always felt off, but not anymore!

When I told Bill, the guy I played against in my garage on the video I posted, he was not impressed. He was like "learning the proper strokes is for kids, you need to improve your service receives." Well, the joke is on him! I figured that the reason I couldn't receive his services, mostly fast and to my BH, is because I didn't have a good, consistent stroke. I played against him last week for the first time since that video I posted, and after losing 0-3 the first match as I intentionally focused on utilizing my new stroke in game situations, I beat him 3-1 the next match!

That was the first time I've ever beaten him! He commented afterwards how much better my service receives have gotten, especially how I was able to loop all his backspin services. I've since built on what the coach taught me. He told me to focus on the stroke first, then worry about the body and footwork later. I'm now starting to incorporate the body and the footwork. I never knew how to incorporate the body into my BH stroke, but now I'm able to do so with every shot from warmup onwards.

It's exciting to be playing TT again, and very exciting to have finally found a path forward toward improving my BH after so many years of wanting!

 

[JeffM]

Here is the semi finals that I played.
Would appreciate some input as to how I should receive that bh penholder serve. I think when the motion he does is small, it is heavy reverse side top spin but I am not receiving it well. Whereas when he does a bigger swing, it is backspin?

You can skip to 2:45 when the match starts.

Thanks

 

[Mikey_TT]

@UpSideDownCarl
i will make my argument here since i cant make it in the video footage thread.

I mean it could be the case of camera angles, but according to ittf rules the ball should be visible from the point it is thrown to the point it is contacted with the bat.
you could argue that the camera angle is making it look like that in the 4th image but in the first 3 images it is quite obvious despite of the camera angle that the hand is in the way.
another point the first 2 images prove that the serve is illegal since the hand is obviously in the way.
serves like these might not get called out even on international events (look at hugo’s serve) but they are still illegal.

i am myself working on my serves to make legal, and in the end we are not pros and i have seen more illegal serves which don’t get called out in my tournaments.

in my humble opinion echte should work on his serves to make it more legal.

 

[NextLevel]

@UpSideDownCarl
i will make my argument here since i cant make it in the video footage thread.

I mean it could be the case of camera angles, but according to ittf rules the ball should be visible from the point it is thrown to the point it is contacted with the bat.
you could argue that the camera angle is making it look like that in the 4th image but in the first 3 images it is quite obvious despite of the camera angle that the hand is in the way.
another point the first 2 images prove that the serve is illegal since the hand is obviously in the way.
serves like these might not get called out even on international events (look at hugo’s serve) but they are still illegal.

i am myself working on my serves to make legal, and in the end we are not pros and i have seen more illegal serves which don’t get called out in my tournaments.

in my humble opinion echte should work on his serves to make it more legal.

The pendulum serve has an interesting history, as does serving in general. Most pendulum serves have the exact problem that you describe and most of the time, they are not deemed illegal in any meaningful way because the contact itself is usually visible, especially to a someone with the same handedness. Serving tends to get maximum contact over the racket arm hip or close to it so unless you change your serving stance or make radical modifications, it is very hard to adjust. I am sure I have been accused of hiding my serve for similar reasons to what you are analyzing and as Carl said, he doesn't see anything wrong. And while Der Echte has tricky serves, my problem was never visibility.

In any case, it will take a lot of work for people to change/get rid of the pendulum serve so don't hold your breath. And since Wang Chuqin is getting mileage out of his big head on hook serves, it will take a while before great players completely eliminate hidden serves. Even Felix is a member of the club IMHO. The one exception in modern times I think is Truls.

 

[blahness]

@UpSideDownCarl
i will make my argument here since i cant make it in the video footage thread.

I mean it could be the case of camera angles, but according to ittf rules the ball should be visible from the point it is thrown to the point it is contacted with the bat.
you could argue that the camera angle is making it look like that in the 4th image but in the first 3 images it is quite obvious despite of the camera angle that the hand is in the way.
another point the first 2 images prove that the serve is illegal since the hand is obviously in the way.
serves like these might not get called out even on international events (look at hugo’s serve) but they are still illegal.

i am myself working on my serves to make legal, and in the end we are not pros and i have seen more illegal serves which don’t get called out in my tournaments.

in my humble opinion echte should work on his serves to make it more legal.

The screenshots are still legal. The rule is that the ball itself must have visibility of the net at all times. If you imagine a triangle between the ball and the net, that is the no go zone where no body parts can be. In the pics, the free hand is well below the ball and thus not hindering the space between the ball and the net. The legality of the serve will depend on whether or not the free arm is continued to be taken away as the ball drops further.

It is not illegal to hide the racket or the playing arm, only illegal to obstruct the view of the ball (most ppl have a misconception of the rules). If from the front view, any part of the ball becomes hidden during its flight it is an illegal serve.

Also, contrary to popular opinion, the rule has nothing to do with where the opponent is standing or their viewpoint.

See excerpt from ITTF handbook below.

2.6.5 As soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm and hand shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net.

The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and
its indefinite upward extension.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

@UpSideDownCarl
i will make my argument here since i cant make it in the video footage thread.

I mean it could be the case of camera angles, but according to ittf rules the ball should be visible from the point it is thrown to the point it is contacted with the bat.
you could argue that the camera angle is making it look like that in the 4th image but in the first 3 images it is quite obvious despite of the camera angle that the hand is in the way.
another point the first 2 images prove that the serve is illegal since the hand is obviously in the way.
serves like these might not get called out even on international events (look at hugo’s serve) but they are still illegal.

i am myself working on my serves to make legal, and in the end we are not pros and i have seen more illegal serves which don’t get called out in my tournaments.

in my humble opinion echte should work on his serves to make it more legal.

1st, read what NextLevel wrote.

2nd, you are talking about images where the ball is above Der_Echte's head, how can his arm be in between the ball and the line of site of the receiver (NextLevel) if the ball is above his head and arm. In all of the stills you made in your post, there is nothing between the ball and the receiver's line of site to the ball.

And, as I see, after posting, that blahness has already made pretty much the same observation above.

And, yeah, this is a much better place for this discussion than in the Video Safe Footage Thread.

 

[NextLevel]

The screenshots are still legal. The rule is that the ball itself must have visibility of the net at all times. If you imagine a triangle between the ball and the net, that is the no go zone where no body parts can be. In the pics, the free hand is well below the ball and thus not hindering the space between the ball and the net. The legality of the serve will depend on whether or not the free arm is continued to be taken away as the ball drops further.

It is not illegal to hide the racket or the playing arm, only illegal to obstruct the view of the ball (most ppl have a misconception of the rules). If from the front view, any part of the ball becomes hidden during its flight it is an illegal serve.

Also, contrary to popular opinion, the rule has nothing to do with where the opponent is standing or their viewpoint.

See excerpt from ITTF handbook below.

2.6.5 As soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm and hand shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net.

The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and
its indefinite upward extension.

The definition of the space between the ball and the net shows that the serve is not legal as the free arm is still in that space, but again, many players do not really care about these things as long as they can see the ball.

 

[blahness]

But in general I agree that most top players are serving illegally because the ball is hidden by their shoulder/head on the way down. The only way to avoid this is to stand mostly sideways to the table (for eg Li Xiaoxia high toss serve). If it's not called obviously they will continue to do so because they get some advantages from doing this (because as a receiver you lose track of the ball momentarily and thus there is less information about the timing of the contact).

Anyway the top players can all read serves from the trajectory itself, and this is what is taught, so that you don't get fooled by all the trickery.

So with the more advanced serves, they serve the underspin variants faster so that it looks like topspin, and serve the topspin variants slower so that it looks more like underspin.

But still, you cannot hide the change in speed during the bounce - underspin will always slow down and vice versa.

I too have very tricky serves but completely legal (the ball is always fully visible from start to end, but you will only see the racket at contact and at no other time lol), and generally those who receive it well are those who ignore my racket movements but watch the trajectory like a hawk. Those who rely on racket movements are bound to eat a tremendous amount of serves.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

The definition of the space between the ball and the net shows that the serve is not legal as the free arm is still in that space, but again, many players do not really care about these things as long as they can see the ball.

Interesting read on this. If the ball is that high, and there is nothing that would stop you from seeing the ball, and nothing directly in between the ball and the net (if you were looking from any part of the net, you would see the ball) can you explain what makes you say Der is doing something that causes the serve to be illegal? I am not understanding it. Blahness's explaination made sense to me.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

But in general I agree that most top players are serving illegally because the ball is hidden by their shoulder/head on the way down.

Yep.

 

[NextLevel]

Interesting read on this. If the ball is that high, and there is nothing that would stop you from seeing the ball, and nothing directly in between the ball and the net (if you were looking from any part of the net, you would see the ball) can you explain what makes you say Der is doing something that causes the serve to be illegal? I am not understanding it. Blahness's explaination made sense to me.

The key phrase is 'infinite extension upwards'. It's a technical detail, in practice no one would call it an obstruction except the extra-logical type but the arm is still in that space when the ball is past the peak. And it is a common approach to serving, many people are much worse in pushing the limits of it to the point that even when the arm never blocks, it is very distracting.

 

[Mikey_TT]

The definition of the space between the ball and the net shows that the serve is not legal as the free arm is still in that space, but again, many players do not really care about these things as long as they can see the ball.

yes, blahness i dont think up you understood the meaning of the space between the ball and the net.
As soon as you throw the ball upwards, you must remove the throwing arm from the space between the ball and the net.

the space between the ball and the net is where the hand is in the picture.
As i mentioned in my post i have seen really illegal serves in my tournament, and serves like these are still readable, but they are illegal.

 

[Mikey_TT]

The definition of the space between the ball and the net shows that the serve is not legal as the free arm is still in that space, but again, many players do not really care about these things as long as they can see the ball.

exactly, but since at the moment of contact echte removes his free hand and the contact is visible, the serve can be read.
I mean hugo does the same thing and he has not been called out by a referee, so i guess you could do these types of serves in competition without getting called out.

 

[NextLevel]

exactly, but since at the moment of contact echte removes his free hand and the contact is visible, the serve can be read.
I mean hugo does the same thing and he has not been called out by a referee, so i guess you could do these types of serves in competition without getting called out.

Table tennis serving rules are a mess, let's just leave it at that. To play well, you have to just watch and read the ball better and forget about the serving rules, or you will lose matches just to thinking about dodgy serves. Even matches you could win. Otherwise, my dodgy serves will get to you lol.

 

[Mikey_TT]

Table tennis serving rules are a mess, let's just leave it at that. To play well, you have to just watch and read the ball better and forget about the serving rules, or you will lose matches just to thinking about dodgy serves. Even matches you could win. Otherwise, my dodgy serves will get to you lol.

true, let’s leave it at that. when the referees do that care why should we as long as the contact is visible

 

[NextLevel]

true, let’s leave it at that. when the referees do that care why should we as long as the contact is visible

Even if the contact is not visible. Some of those Hugo arm pulls may be late. Sometimes the head may block or the contact is behind the hip. Just keep looking for cues and fight through it. You will be grateful when in a high stakes match, the umpiring is had but you are used to playing through bad conditions. I have seen someone hide his serve but fail to vary it (he always served no spin which defeated the point of hiding it, which he was probably doing cluelessly). But if you don't focus through it, you defeat yourself without giving yourself a chance.