Dignics 09c vs DHS Hurricane 3 Blue versions

[Lazer]

Throw angle = spin/speed relation.
A higher “throw angle” means a higher spin ratio for that particular stroke.
It’s as easy as that.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Jslick89]

I use D09C on my backhand and boosted commerical hurricane 3 neo on my forehand. its the perfect set up for me. I haven't used many rubbers in the three or so years ive played table tennis. The first 2 and a half years i used tenergy 05 on forehand and tenergy 19 on backhand. I like my new set up a lot more. Way more control and spin. The DHS has a low trajectory but since the shots are so spinny, they bounce high off the table and surprise my opponents.

Ive been using this set up for at least 6 months now. the D09c is still working great. i think the HN3 is losing a bit of performance. i heard if i boost one more time it will bounce back and be better than ever. ive just been busy with moving and working a lot so i haven't had time to boost my rubber again in between my playing sessions.

I also have a couple prov BS hurricane 3 neos ive been waiting to try out (I think one is 39 degree and the other is 40 degree). but i figure since everything is working fine now, why change. i'm beating opponents rated a lot higher than me almost every round robin.

 

[_ak]

they bounce high off the table and surprise my opponents.

Shouldn't it bounce low and dive shorter than anticipated instead?

 

[NextLevel]

Shouldn't it bounce low and dive shorter than anticipated instead?

Everyone does this differently, we likely have to see him hit the ball to see what he really means and whether we agree with him or not.

 

[Jslick89]

Everyone does this differently, we likely have to see him hit the ball to see what he really means and whether we agree with him or not.

i'll try to get some footage soon. probably wont be for a week or so. either way, i really like the hurricane. It's a very fun rubber. whatever you put into it is what you get out of it.

 

[NextLevel]

i'll try to get some footage soon. probably wont be for a week or so. either way, i really like the hurricane. It's a very fun rubber. whatever you put into it is what you get out of it.

That is how I feel about H3 as well, though the Blue Sponge gives you a little extra spin. And I don't boost.

 

[greenbeanmachine]

Can you explain please what you mean by “looping from below the table”?

I mean making a loop when the ball has already gone below the surface the table. Taking the ball close to the floor, for instance. The stability of this shot is lower with a high-throw rubber, just as the stability of flicking underspin is lower with a low-throw rubber.

This is what sometimes makes using the phrase "throw" so confusing.

Yeah it's a fuzzy concept, for sure. Does using the tacky surface to "grab" the ball while looping underspin count as throw angle? It's not entirely clear. But I do think that there are meaningful distinctions in which types of shots are more stable for different types of rubbers, and that these distinctions arise because of a fuzzy concept called "throw angle".

But please, I don't see where gravity has a role in any of this that is meaningful. I can be convinced though I suspect it would be very difficult.

All I'm saying about gravity is that if you play the ball at a higher angle (which you are more likely to do with a "high throw" rubber), then gravity is contributing more to the arc of your ball than it is to someone who plays the ball at a lower angle.

Surely most of you do not dispute the idea that people who play with D09c tend to play higher over the net with more curved arcs whereas people who play with Hurricane/Skyline tend to play with lower, flatter arcs. The reason for the difference in arc is not because D09c produces more Magnus effect -- it is because the higher throw angle results in gravity having more of an effect on the arc.

 

[greenbeanmachine]

Throw angle = spin/speed relation.
A higher “throw angle” means a higher spin ratio for that particular stroke.
It’s as easy as that.

Cheers
L-zr

Shouldn't this mean that tacky Chinese rubbers have an incredibly high throw angle? But they don't...

 

[NextLevel]

I mean making a loop when the ball has already gone below the surface the table. Taking the ball close to the floor, for instance. The stability of this shot is lower with a high-throw rubber, just as the stability of flicking underspin is lower with a low-throw rubber.

Yeah it's a fuzzy concept, for sure. Does using the tacky surface to "grab" the ball while looping underspin count as throw angle? It's not entirely clear. But I do think that there are meaningful distinctions in which types of shots are more stable for different types of rubbers, and that these distinctions arise because of a fuzzy concept called "throw angle".

All I'm saying about gravity is that if you play the ball at a higher angle (which you are more likely to do with a "high throw" rubber), then gravity is contributing more to the arc of your ball than it is to someone who plays the ball at a lower angle.

Surely most of you do not dispute the idea that people who play with D09c tend to play higher over the net with more curved arcs whereas people who play with Hurricane/Skyline tend to play with lower, flatter arcs. The reason for the difference in arc is not because D09c produces more Magnus effect -- it is because the higher throw angle results in gravity having more of an effect on the arc.

People who play with Hurricane or Skyline can also get high arcs, I am a high arc looper nowadays so I get high arcs with just about anything. And there was a time I was more into low arcs, even when I used T05, I was notorious for playing drives that didn't bounce upwards. Of course my technique now is different and I spin more now, but my point is that throw when discussed as arc using a rubber is a very subjective thing. Also no one is really measuring spin to speed ratios, so a lot of stuff related to throw as ball flight arc vs throw as ball spin to speed ratio has no basis in hard data, it is a mix of various gut feelings and intuitions.

That said, I agree with what you are saying, that the angle at which a ball exits a rubber is not necessarily a measure of spin, though it can be a measure of the rubbers spin producing ability because rubbers with high exit angles allow you to loop with more closed racket angles on both tlbackspin and topspin which tends to put more into tangential components of the loop and create more rotation. This is separate from the effect of tack which allows you to follow the shape of the ball to add spin. Something like 09c has a combination of both effects. But you can also drive the ball really hard with 09c and get incredibly spinny balls with low arcs. The most powerful shot I ever remember hitting is one I hit with 09c and that the ball still landed on the table amazes me to this day.

 

[NextLevel]

I prefer to speak of exit angle under specific circumstances instead of throw. One of the things that an old article on tenergy which is no longer available on the butterfly website made clear was thar the exit angle of T05 was higher than T80 which was also higher than T64. So when blocking, it was pretty obvious that the exit angle of T05 made direct blocking with an open racket face harder and the exit angle of T64 made blocking and smashing with more open racket face angles easier. Also blade also has a contribution as the speed of the blade can affect the exit angle vs using another blade (faster blades with stiffer composites tend to have lower exit angles, all things being equal). I get where gravity fits in but I wouldn't bring it into the mix as it affects all things equally.

 

[Lazer]

Shouldn't this mean that tacky Chinese rubbers have an incredibly high throw angle? But they don't...

I may have not been very clear in the post above, it should read:

Curve = spin/speed.

But during flight the ball has only 2 components speed and spin. You throw the ball forward at a certain rate and the magnus effect does the rest. It’s all physics. If the ball has more spin it HAS TO curve more, no way around.

The angle of attack may be a little different due to tackiness and catapult etc…

But the curve always follows the spin/speed relation.

For instance I think my Rakza Z has a lower throw than my H3, this is because it has a lower spin/speed relation. The angle of attack is similar.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[NextLevel]

I may have not been very clear in the post above, it should read:

Curve = spin/speed.

But during flight the ball has only 2 components speed and spin. You throw the ball forward at a certain rate and the magnus effect does the rest. It’s all physics. If the ball has more spin it HAS TO curve more, no way around.

The angle of attack may be a little different due to tackiness and catapult etc…

But the curve always follows the spin/speed relation.

For instance I think my Rakza Z has a lower throw than my H3, this is because it has a lower spin/speed relation. The angle of attack is similar.

Cheers
L-zr

So you are saying that a no spin ball (dummy loop, no spin serve, no spin chop) cannot have the flight trajectory of a spinny ball (slow spinny loop, backspin serve, spinny chop)? Or that a spinny ball(topspin drive) cannot have the flight trajectory of a no spin ball (smash)?

 

[deepanmania]

I may have not been very clear in the post above, it should read:

Curve = spin/speed.

But during flight the ball has only 2 components speed and spin. You throw the ball forward at a certain rate and the magnus effect does the rest. It’s all physics. If the ball has more spin it HAS TO curve more, no way around.

The angle of attack may be a little different due to tackiness and catapult etc…

But the curve always follows the spin/speed relation.

For instance I think my Rakza Z has a lower throw than my H3, this is because it has a lower spin/speed relation. The angle of attack is similar.

Cheers
L-zr

I may not be right, but just curious
As far as every one DHS H3 BS and D09c has almost similar spin and D09c is a tad bit more speed. As per this equation
Curve = spin/speed, H3 should have more curve than D09c because of low speed. But D09c has more curve and that leads to a high trajectory.

Are there more factors to be considered here for the above equation?

 

[Lazer]

So you are saying that a no spin ball (dummy loop, no spin serve, no spin chop) cannot have the flight trajectory of a spinny ball (slow spinny loop, backspin serve, spinny chop)? Or that a spinny ball(topspin drive) cannot have the flight trajectory of a no spin ball (smash)?

Yes if they have the same sped it is exactly what I am saying.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Lazer]

I may not be right, but just curious
As far as every one DHS H3 BS and D09c has almost similar spin and D09c is a tad bit more speed. As per this equation
Curve = spin/speed, H3 should have more curve than D09c because of low speed. But D09c has more curve and that leads to a high trajectory.

Are there more factors to be considered here for the above equation?

With the same speed and angle of attack the ball with most spin has more curve. The magnus effect will curve the ball. This is very obvious whe you serve because it’s easier to see when it curves to the side.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[greenbeanmachine]

I prefer to speak of exit angle under specific circumstances instead of throw.

Yeah that might be a more precise term, because it doesn't factor in the angle and trajectory of the swing. But for any fixed swing, the throw angle for hybrid rubbers is going to be very high compared to Chinese rubbers.

People who play with Hurricane or Skyline can also get high arcs

Yeah that's true. But I think of this as overcompensation / consciously overcoming the properties of one's own rubber. I do think it's more natural to play high arcs with a hybrid rubber. And likewise, I still think it's objectively harder to flick underspin with Chinese rubber, and it's objectively harder to loop from under the table with hybrid rubber because this requires overcoming the natural properties of the rubber.

As per this equation curve = spin/speed, H3 should have more curve than D09c because of low speed. But D09c has more curve and that leads to a high trajectory.

Are there more factors to be considered here for the above equation?

Yes, there is another factor: the angle at which the ball exits the racket. A higher angle (what I have been calling "throw angle") means that gravity will create a more pronounced parabolic arc than a ball that exits the racket at a lower angle. D09c naturally releases the ball at a higher angle than Hurricane 3 or Skyline 2.

But if you compensate, and open the racket to hit at a higher angle with Hurricane, you will produce more arc than you will produce with D09c, because the spin (and therefore Magnus effect) will be greater with Hurricane. The D09c will give you a high throw angle naturally, whereas if you want a high throw angle with Hurricane you have to consciously open your racket and hit the ball in a more upwards direction.


Since many of y'all have been skeptical of what I'm saying, I'll add that I'm currently doing a PhD in mathematics and have taken many PhD-level classes in physics, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes if they have the same sped it is exactly what I am saying.

Cheers
L-zr

Okay - it would be nice to know how people dummy loop then. The question for most people is not whether they have the same speed, but whether it is possible to create curved arcs that look similar to spinny balls when the stroke is not a spinny stroke and what causes that, is it more spin or just the ball leaving the racket in a higher arc/angle? You can block with Tenergy 05 and T64 and notice that the ball comes out in a higher arc on T05 than Tenergy 64 and this is without you adding any spin. This doesn't mean the ball is spinnier from T05 than Tenergy 64 even f the forward speed is slower (only because the arc is longer). The reason is that the pip configuration of the blocking rubber and the incoming spin on the ball send the ball in a higher arc off T05 than off T64.

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah that might be a more precise term, because it doesn't factor in the angle and trajectory of the swing. But for any fixed swing, the throw angle for hybrid rubbers is going to be very high compared to Chinese rubbers.


Yeah that's true. But I think of this as overcompensation / consciously overcoming the properties of one's own rubber. I do think it's more natural to play high arcs with a hybrid rubber. And likewise, I still think it's objectively harder to flick underspin with Chinese rubber, and it's objectively harder to loop from under the table with hybrid rubber because this requires overcoming the natural properties of the rubber.


Yes, there is another factor: the angle at which the ball exits the racket. A higher angle (what I have been calling "throw angle") means that gravity will create a more pronounced parabolic arc than a ball that exits the racket at a lower angle. D09c naturally releases the ball at a higher angle than Hurricane 3 or Skyline 2.

But if you compensate, and open the racket to hit at a higher angle with Hurricane, you will produce more arc than you will produce with D09c, because the spin (and therefore Magnus effect) will be greater with Hurricane. The D09c will give you a high throw angle naturally, whereas if you want a high throw angle with Hurricane you have to consciously open your racket and hit the ball in a more upwards direction.


Since many of y'all have been skeptical of what I'm saying, I'll add that I'm currently doing a PhD in mathematics and have taken many PhD-level classes in physics, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

I hear you, please let us not go down the route of the TT-Engineer-Physics expert. One notorious expert is already one too many. I get the thrust of what you are saying and agree with it, the devil is always in the details. But would be interested in how illuminating Lazer can be.

 

[greenbeanmachine]

Okay - it would be nice to know how people dummy loop then. The question for most people is not whether they have the same speed, but whether it is possible to create curved arcs that look similar to spinny balls when the stroke is not a spinny stroke and what causes that, is it more spin or just the ball leaving the racket in a higher arc/angle?

Based on my understanding of physics...
It should be possible to create (roughly) the same shape of arc as a very spinny ball, but with only moderate spin. A constant downward force (such as gravity) will produce a parabolic arc.

Arcs that come from the Magnus effect are approximately parabolic because the Magnus force is only approximately constant -- there is just a minor problem that friction from the air causes the spinning of the ball to slow down. This reduces the Magnus force, so the Magnus force is not constant -- it is decreasing.

If we assume that the spinning speed of the ball does not slow down (or that the slowing down is negligible), we should be able to create the same parabolic arc as gravity. However, the speed at which the balls follow the arcing shape will be different. And also once the ball hits the table, the shape of the paths will be different.

 

[Lazer]

Okay - it would be nice to know how people dummy loop then. The question for most people is not whether they have the same speed, but whether it is possible to create curved arcs that look similar to spinny balls when the stroke is not a spinny stroke and what causes that, is it more spin or just the ball leaving the racket in a higher arc/angle? You can block with Tenergy 05 and T64 and notice that the ball comes out in a higher arc on T05 than Tenergy 64 and this is without you adding any spin. This doesn't mean the ball is spinnier from T05 than Tenergy 64 even f the forward speed is slower (only because the arc is longer). The reason is that the pip configuration of the blocking rubber and the incoming spin on the ball send the ball in a higher arc off T05 than off T64.

The curve of a spinny shot is different, it’s a more accentuated curve at the end of the shot. But if the ball is fast enough and hits the table before the accentuated curve it’s hard to tell, then look at the bounce instead.

A rubber can only induce speed and spin at a certain direction which will decide the trajectory. The magnus effect will increase the curve.

Cheers
L-zr