Does anybody else mentally fall apart against pure pushers or weird styles?

[zeio]

Today I played a 1600 rated guy who only pushes nonstop. They just push to my backhand all the time. Normally my bh loop against underspin is my strength...but for some reason I totally fell apart mentally against a guy who only pushes to my bh. What is going on?

...

What is the best way to handle this type of situation? I heard from other players as well that this individual often takes down much higher rated "traditional" players. But his own rating never goes up because he doesn't have the other techniques to beat the lower ranked players.

Your looping game is weaker than his pushing game. That's all.

Option 1 (ugly): Just serve long and pure topspin.
Option 2 (bad): Work on your loops.
Option 3 (good): Work on your

Spoiler

pushes.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

As i said, my normal movements just shutdown.

I think against the 2000 players i know i have to attack to have a chance, so i play fluid and loose.

Against this guy, i know he will push me forever. So psychologically i feel different. When i loop, its like im reaching out of a trap. So im stiff and anxious and all my normal movements shutdown.

I think you over estimate your attacking ability
you can't just shutdown. you can restart with a towel break or time out.

he is out spinning you, full stop.

 

[mcfly]

I think you over estimate your attacking ability
you can't just shutdown. you can restart with a towel break or time out.

he is out spinning you, full stop.

maybe just maybe it is time to put long pips on BH - unless it should be banned

 

[Tyce]

All jokes and obvious answers aside, there is one significant difference between playing this pusher and a 2000ish attacker: pace.

Attacking against low paced pushes requires different timing, and for you to generate the ball speed. With attackers, you can borrow their pace and just add spin.

Your issue might be a timing thing, or you're not moving forward enough in your stroke to generate a strong impact. And yes, weird timing can feel really off

 

[blahness]

Your looping game is weaker than his pushing game. That's all.

Option 1 (ugly): Just serve long and pure topspin.
Option 2 (bad): Work on your loops.
Option 3 (good): Work on your

Spoiler

pushes.

If the guy knows how to use good footwork, bodyweight transfer, forearm, wrist and finger action to push the ball, there is a chance that it is so spinny that OP has no chance to overcome the spin and loop it unless he knows how to similarly use all the available mechanisms to loop the ball, and has good enough footwork to get into a good enough position to loop the ball.

But, there are shortcuts lol (see for eg what Truls is doing with his BH opening 'loop') - he basically just lifts it up with open racket angle and the ball often is short and even has residual backspin, or he can just do a small wrist flick to give it topspin or even sidespin. It is not gonna be powerful but it is physically damn easy and the spin variations can drive some ppl crazy (esp when they see the lifting movement and then it gets blocked to the base of the net)

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

@TensorBackhand
are your loops going in the net or out ? or both ?
also why not push back and let him attack first ?

when you play a pusher, the most important thing is to keep moving all the time, more so than against an attacker. against an attacker, even when you're not moving, and reaching for the ball, you can block the ball back on the table. but there is not this option against a push.

if you keep on moving and bouncing, its easier to make the footwork adjustments, and then its much much easier to play the ball.

I'm pretty sure you miss because you're not in the right position, too far from the ball or sometimes too close, and also you get stiff instead of playing the ball relaxed and brushing it

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

maybe just maybe it is time to put long pips on BH - unless it should be banned

yep,
since he is such a promoting of it,
so good suggestion, haha

put long pips on, and he can beat 1600 players

 

[mcfly]

yep,
since he is such a promoting of it,
so good suggestion, haha

put long pips on, and he can beat 1600 players

all jokes aside... if all one does is push, LP will bring the easy ball to smash

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

all jokes aside... if all one does is push, LP will bring the easy ball to smash

welll, if you don't know how to use LP
the ball will pop up.

i still think with inverted, teaching tensor to push back a non spin underspin push, is a quicker and less troublesome solution

 

[Amayzde]

Like a few people already said, I think you are overestimating your backhand ability. But, that doesnt mean you can't work on it.

Technical:
Work on proper mechanics. With the right mechanics a backhand topspin against backspin shouldnt feel much harder then against topspin on a block ball. Its only more upward. What are the proper mechanics you ask? Using the power of your legs to lift the ball, instead of your wrist, forearm and shoulder having to do all the work. The simplest explaination I can give is to 'stand-up' when you are about to strike the ball.

A few other common technical errors with the backhand;
1. Actively using your wrist to hit the ball. Dont do that. Just relax your wrist and let it follow your forearm.
2. Keeping your elbow to close to your hip. This will result in a rather side-topspin and lacks lifting strength.
3. Not keeping the elbow in a fixed position. Same problem as point 2.

If stil having problems, this is probably the easiest tutorial onYoutube:

Tactical tips:
As a few have already mentioned, dont serve with backspin. If you dont like pushing rallies, then dont give them the chance to start pushing of your serve.
Of course we all know those players who might still be able to push a short side-topspin serve quite low. Then either serve short with no-spin, or just long and fast.

Play with spin rather then speed. This is both safer for yourself and usually gives them more trouble then a half fast, barely spinny open-up, that takes way too much effort, and they have already blocked it back, while you where still watching wheather your ball went on the table or not.

Not sure if that last point applies to you, Im just sharing my own personal experience and frustration I used to have playing those players.

 

[SleepyMaster]

It’s all looks kinda weird. If you are 2000 player - there is no problem for you to lift any amount of under spin both backhand/forehand. It’s actually would be your bread and butter.

Maybe another 3-4-5-6 layers of booster needed idk really 🫡

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

It’s all looks kinda weird. If you are 2000 player - there is no problem for you to lift any amount of under spin both backhand/forehand. It’s actually would be your bread and butter.

Maybe another 3-4-5-6 layers of booster needed idk really 🫡

OP is a 2,000 lvl player? I didn't know this although a typical 2,000 lvl player will hardly use cloned equipment.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

It’s all looks kinda weird. If you are 2000 player - there is no problem for you to lift any amount of under spin both backhand/forehand. It’s actually would be your bread and butter.

Maybe another 3-4-5-6 layers of booster needed idk really 🫡

I think with booster and the original blades, he is 2200 easily
put on national editions, 2300 maybe

 

[tsubasa]

Dont let him push.

1) Serv long to his fh.

2) Serv with top/side spin.

3) When he is serving try to push to his wide bh and than to his wide fh than step around. If you push to the middle than try to step around you're in trouble.

4) If he is a good pusher than he is able to vary the spin thats why you lost your confidence, so try not to flick or attack his pushes, push back but dont try to keep it short or low. Make him attack and if he attacks, counter.

5) Dont push back to the same area. If you push back to his bh 3 times in a row than he will vary the spin. So make him uncomfortable.

6) Serv with your bh. Try to do a short side/top spin to his fh and next time to his wide bh. Keep him guessing.

 

[SleepyMaster]

OP is a 2,000 lvl player? I didn't know this although a typical 2,000 lvl player will hardly use cloned equipment.

I saw he told in some thread that he about 1950+ so I’m used to believe 😌

 

[RefereeNumber2]

Being able to consistently crush this type of "pusher" is one way to tell apart a 1600ish player from a 2000ish player when they both have nice strokes and can produce high quality shots. The difference is in consistency.

Without more specific details about this guy's game, my general tips are:
1. Embrace the challenge. Just because his game is "ugly" or whatever and you can hit prettier shots, doesn't mean it will be (or should be) an automatic win for you. He's a dangerous opponent and should be taken seriously. (This goes for all opponents, not just "pushers").
2. Stay relaxed and focus on feeling the ball. Playing against irregular/junk balls requires good feeling, since the spins and pace are different from what you're used to. If the score is close or you're behind, it can be easy to tense up and lose feeling, which can lead to easy misses, which spirals into further tightness, etc.

In terms of tactics: vary up the placement, depth, and spin of your pushes. This helps you stay focused during the rally and also keeps him off balance. One technique is to push against the side of the ball instead of the back (against backspin). This takes a lot of spin out of the ball and often leads to a high return.

But mostly don't get lulled into those repetitive pushing back and forth rallies (unless you're trying to get practice at pushing). He's probably more consistent than you in those rallies since it's apparently his entire game.

 

[TensorBackhand]

It’s all looks kinda weird. If you are 2000 player - there is no problem for you to lift any amount of under spin both backhand/forehand. It’s actually would be your bread and butter.

Maybe another 3-4-5-6 layers of booster needed idk really 🫡

Like i said, its normally not a problem for me. But against this person, all my normal movements shutdown. We shall see, i think with some practice I will eventually figure his style out.

Also, it is true that i play about evenly with 1900-1950 players in OUR league. I dont know how well our callibration is to other systems or to Usatt.

I win maybe 30% against higher ranked 2000 players.

I dont know and i dont even care what my rating is. I just cite some number so people at least have some idea. If it makes you feel better, you can believe any number you prefer

 

[TensorBackhand]

Being able to consistently crush this type of "pusher" is one way to tell apart a 1600ish player from a 2000ish player when they both have nice strokes and can produce high quality shots. The difference is in consistency.

Without more specific details about this guy's game, my general tips are:
1. Embrace the challenge. Just because his game is "ugly" or whatever and you can hit prettier shots, doesn't mean it will be (or should be) an automatic win for you. He's a dangerous opponent and should be taken seriously. (This goes for all opponents, not just "pushers").
2. Stay relaxed and focus on feeling the ball. Playing against irregular/junk balls requires good feeling, since the spins and pace are different from what you're used to. If the score is close or you're behind, it can be easy to tense up and lose feeling, which can lead to easy misses, which spirals into further tightness, etc.

In terms of tactics: vary up the placement, depth, and spin of your pushes. This helps you stay focused during the rally and also keeps him off balance. One technique is to push against the side of the ball instead of the back (against backspin). This takes a lot of spin out of the ball and often leads to a high return.

But mostly don't get lulled into those repetitive pushing back and forth rallies (unless you're trying to get practice at pushing). He's probably more consistent than you in those rallies since it's apparently his entire game.

Yes, right now i am getting lulled into his style of play. So i might just trade 15 pushes with him. Then when I eventually go to loop, my body is out of rhythm and stiff and i just cant execute

 

[TensorBackhand]

One thing that @UpSideDownCarl said is very true though, an actual genuine rating represents how you play against all styles and all players, higher and lower and is averaged performance over a large sample size.

I always try to go find decent sparring partners to make fun and interesting matchups, so I generally play exclusively with 1800, 1900, 2000 players. It is actually a fact that against this level of player, I compete relatively evenly.

However, the inverse of this is that I never play 1500, 1600 players. This is the zone where there are probably a lot more quirky and odd styles. So to Carl's point, to truly prove out your higher rating, you would need to defend it against higher levels and also lower levels and weird styles and normal styles.

I do want to emphasize that this particular individual is often the topic of discussion amongst our group. Nobody likes playing with him because his style is weird. I called him a constant pusher, but the reality is there is more nuance that makes him very frustrating and tricky to play. It's hard to describe fully without actually playing him. I asked a guy rated 2080, and he said he recently won 3-1 against the 1600 weird guy but every game was deuce and it was very close and frustrating.

Actually after I lost to him recently, an observing coach came by and spoke to me saying "you didn't play your normal game. I know his style is weird. but you have much more ability that you didn't play with because you played his style"

 

[Jslick89]

One thing that @UpSideDownCarl said is very true though, an actual genuine rating represents how you play against all styles and all players, higher and lower and is averaged performance over a large sample size.

I always try to go find decent sparring partners to make fun and interesting matchups, so I generally play exclusively with 1800, 1900, 2000 players. It is actually a fact that against this level of player, I compete relatively evenly.

However, the inverse of this is that I never play 1500, 1600 players. This is the zone where there are probably a lot more quirky and odd styles. So to Carl's point, to truly prove out your higher rating, you would need to defend it against higher levels and also lower levels and weird styles and normal styles.

I do want to emphasize that this particular individual is often the topic of discussion amongst our group. Nobody likes playing with him because his style is weird. I called him a constant pusher, but the reality is there is more nuance that makes him very frustrating and tricky to play. It's hard to describe fully without actually playing him. I asked a guy rated 2080, and he said he recently won 3-1 against the 1600 weird guy but every game was deuce and it was very close and frustrating.

Actually after I lost to him recently, an observing coach came by and spoke to me saying "you didn't play your normal game. I know his style is weird. but you have much more ability that you didn't play with because you played his style"

honestly it sounds more mental than anything. You're playing like you have something to lose. I know the mindset and its a losing one, quite literally. You need to come up with a better tactic to play against this opponent. When you are in your tactics and playing your game, you will beat him. If you play his game, he will beat you at it.