Does anybody else mentally fall apart against pure pushers or weird styles?

[TensorBackhand]

honestly it sounds more mental than anything. You're playing like you have something to lose. I know the mindset and its a losing one, quite literally. You need to come up with a better tactic to play against this opponent. When you are in your tactics and playing your game, you will beat him. If you play his game, he will beat you at it.

Yes, it is mental. Usually our match starts out with me doing well the first 5 points, I do a few loops and I'm up 4-1 or 4-2 or something.

But then, it gets in my head. I have to hit these big loops just to win a point, when all he has to do is just push and wait and he wins the same point? Mentally it gets to me and the lack of variety kinda gets to me.

 

[Jslick89]

Yes, it is mental. Usually our match starts out with me doing well the first 5 points, I do a few loops and I'm up 4-1 or 4-2 or something.

But then, it gets in my head. I have to hit these big loops just to win a point, when all he has to do is just push and wait and he wins the same point? Mentally it gets to me and the lack of variety kinda gets to me.

is this opponent young and athletic? maybe your loops don't need to be so big if you can hit them wide to his forehand and backhand and then a banger into his elbow? maybe you don't need more speed but a slower and spinnier (higher arch) loop?

What percentage of your serve points are you winning? what percentage of your returns are you winning? Of course its easier said than done, but if you win 70% of your serves and 40% of your returns, you can't lose the match. if you aren't hitting those numbers, adjust your tactics on your serve/3rd ball and your first return because whatever you're doing isn't setting you up to win the match.

 

[zeio]

You: play to make yourself comfortable
He: play to make you uncomfortable

 

[NextLevel]

Me too, but I think that just means I'm not fundamentally solid.

To be fair, not necessarily, weirdness has hard to read elements that are just as valid in table tennis (which is psychology with strategy and tactics as much as it is athletic and technical). It just means you have a problem to learn about, but it doesn't speak to your fundamentals at all, sometimes, quite the opposite, sometimes your game is too clean/transparent to create problems for the opponent.

 

[NextLevel]

For some people who don't know a few things that might help a little:

OP plays in Canada. This is a point that some people who are completely unfamiliar with Canada might overlook.

With a 1950 Canada rating, OP might actually be between 2000 and 2200 in the USATT rating system. He is a solid player.

Likewise, his opponent, 1600 in Canada, is definitely not 1600 in the USATT system but likely higher, and since Canada doesn't adjust, could be higher or lower but is probably more like 1800-1900 in the USATT system.

Canada has a different system and it is very hard to translate, most of the overlap of similarity between numbers is in a very narrow 2000-2400 range or so. I don't even know exactly what that range is. Above that, Canadian ratings are inflated relative to USATT. Below that, Canadian ratings are deflated relative to USATT.

An 1800-1900 player beating a 2100 player by pushing and blocking isn't great, but it isn't entirely impossible either, and remember, the Canadian ratings are not adjusted as quickly as USATT ratings so they are usually not responsive to recent performances, which is both good and bad since adjustments often overshoot as well. So even as TBH tells the story, the 1600 TTCAN player could be a 2000 USATT losing to fellow USATT 1900 -2000 players who are all underrated since they don't do massive adjustments in Canada.

 

[NextLevel]

honestly it sounds more mental than anything. You're playing like you have something to lose. I know the mindset and its a losing one, quite literally. You need to come up with a better tactic to play against this opponent. When you are in your tactics and playing your game, you will beat him. If you play his game, he will beat you at it.

It's definitely mindset to a great degree, everyone likes minimum effort and hates it when someone who doesn't look like they are trying is beating someone who is running up and down and looping the hell out of the ball. Table tennis is not a beauty contest unfortunately and no one wins any style-points, all that matters is keeping the ball on the right side of and on the table.

 

[dingyibvs]

To be fair, not necessarily, weirdness has hard to read elements that are just as valid in table tennis (which is psychology with strategy and tactics as much as it is athletic and technical). It just means you have a problem to learn about, but it doesn't speak to your fundamentals at all, sometimes, quite the opposite, sometimes your game is too clean/transparent to create problems for the opponent.

I think that might be a different issue. I'd probably have trouble handling @TensorBackhand because he likes the clean game and my game is pretty clean, will be cleaner once I develop a less side-spinny FH! But it sounds like his issue is that he's having trouble handling the opponent's shots rather than his opponents having an easy time against his shots. That IMO is probably a more fundamentals based problem. It sounds like he's getting the opportunity to attack, but for various reasons he's failing to successfully do so.

Also, I thought he plays in southern cal, not Canada? Also, those are club ratings I believe, which can be quite different from USATT ratings depending on the ratings system used and individual players' ability to adjust to unfamiliar players.

 

[pgpg]

For some people who don't know a few things that might help a little:

OP plays in Canada. This is a point that some people who are completely unfamiliar with Canada might overlook.

With a 1950 Canada rating, OP might actually be between 2000 and 2200 in the USATT rating system. He is a solid player.

Likewise, his opponent, 1600 in Canada, is definitely not 1600 in the USATT system but likely higher, and since Canada doesn't adjust, could be higher or lower but is probably more like 1800-1900 in the USATT system.

Canada has a different system and it is very hard to translate, most of the overlap of similarity between numbers is in a very narrow 2000-2400 range or so. I don't even know exactly what that range is. Above that, Canadian ratings are inflated relative to USATT. Below that, Canadian ratings are deflated relative to USATT.

An 1800-1900 player beating a 2100 player by pushing and blocking isn't great, but it isn't entirely impossible either, and remember, the Canadian ratings are not adjusted as quickly as USATT ratings so they are usually not responsive to recent performances, which is both good and bad since adjustments often overshoot as well. So even as TBH tells the story, the 1600 TTCAN player could be a 2000 USATT losing to fellow USATT 1900 -2000 players who are all underrated since they don't do massive adjustments in Canada.

To be fair, OP's flair shows US flag, so it's a bit difficult for us to figure out which rating system one has to refer to...

Speaking of ratings - does this inconvenient opponent have an actual tournament rating or it's just a guesstimate by OP, club mates etc.? I find the latter to be quite inaccurate, so the whole premise might be off. And if it's the former - there must be a reason he's 'only 1600', likely does not do well against some styles (pips?).

 

[TensorBackhand]

To be fair, OP's flair shows US flag, so it's a bit difficult for us to figure out which rating system one has to refer to...

Speaking of ratings - does this inconvenient opponent have an actual tournament rating or it's just a guesstimate by OP, club mates etc.? I find the latter to be quite inaccurate, so the whole premise might be off. And if it's the former - there must be a reason he's 'only 1600', likely does not do well against some styles (pips?).

It's a local league rating. It's meant to mimic the USATT system, but I don't know how close it actually is. Our 1600 rating in league might be like 1500 in USATT or something, but I don't know.

It's not a guesttimate by club mates.

But like I said, I asked a number of 2000 level players (again, 2000 based in our league), and they all said that this guy gives everybody trouble with his weird style.

But this guy himself loses to other 1500 and 1600 players, but he can beat some 1900 players and trouble 2000 players. He has a sort of "assymetric" style of game.

 

[pgpg]

It's a local league rating. It's meant to mimic the USATT system, but I don't know how close it actually is. Our 1600 rating in league might be like 1500 in USATT or something, but I don't know.

It's not a guesttimate by club mates.

But like I said, I asked a number of 2000 level players (again, 2000 based in our league), and they all said that this guy gives everybody trouble with his weird style.

But this guy himself loses to other 1500 and 1600 players, but he can beat some 1900 players and trouble 2000 players. He has a sort of "assymetric" style of game.

Right, so it's likely a style mismatch for you (he's good against yours, but struggles against others). I'd look at who he loses to and especially 'how' for inspiration.

 

[vvk1]

It’s all looks kinda weird. If you are 2000 player - there is no problem for you to lift any amount of under spin both backhand/forehand. It’s actually would be your bread and butter.

Maybe another 3-4-5-6 layers of booster needed idk really 🫡

Well, once I got "lucky" and played against a retired former multiple Latvian champion in a tournament and all she did was push and chop with some slow thin inverted rubbers, kinda like Eugene Chtchetinine. I really struggled to open up against her pushes let alone rare repeated chops when I did manage to loop more than once in a row. I very strongly suspect that a 2000 player will most likely not look good against someone competent with using such style. Obviously, this is not the case OP refers to, but still.

 

[Jslick89]

It's a local league rating. It's meant to mimic the USATT system, but I don't know how close it actually is. Our 1600 rating in league might be like 1500 in USATT or something, but I don't know.

It's not a guesttimate by club mates.

But like I said, I asked a number of 2000 level players (again, 2000 based in our league), and they all said that this guy gives everybody trouble with his weird style.

But this guy himself loses to other 1500 and 1600 players, but he can beat some 1900 players and trouble 2000 players. He has a sort of "assymetric" style of game.

do your local league ratings not get updated after every league play?

I think this might all be solved if we get a video of you guys playing each other

currently my USATT is 1550...but i only play in 3 tournaments a year now. Every tournament ive played in ive gone up in ratings. My (local) league ratings at 1650..and 1800 respectively (the club im 1800 is probably inflated by 100 or so points). I can win sets against opponents who are rating 2000. the highest rated player ive beaten in a club RR ins 1900 though.

I'm at a point where I can solidly beat any player (at my club) who is rated sub 1500. At a USATT tournament, i am sure there are plenty of youth who are rated around 1500 who would give me fits...but thats because they play more like 1800 or 1900 rated players.

anyways, i digress.

 

[TensorBackhand]

do your local league ratings not get updated after every league play?

I think this might all be solved if we get a video of you guys playing each other

currently my USATT is 1550...but i only play in 3 tournaments a year now. Every tournament ive played in ive gone up in ratings. My (local) league ratings at 1650..and 1800 respectively (the club im 1800 is probably inflated by 100 or so points). I can win sets against opponents who are rating 2000. the highest rated player ive beaten in a club RR ins 1900 though.

I'm at a point where I can solidly beat any player (at my club) who is rated sub 1500. At a USATT tournament, i am sure there are plenty of youth who are rated around 1500 who would give me fits...but thats because they play more like 1800 or 1900 rated players.

anyways, i digress.

It is updated after every league night. The league is separated by rating, so in the actual rated matches he never faces those 1900 players. If he did, his rating would shoot up with just 1 or 2 wins, which he definitely can get.

He is always grouped in with 1500 and 1600 players, which he is kinda 50/50 against

 

[jk1980]

i can totally understand your issue against opponents that only push. I got a similar "training partner" who will only push or do very "wild" smashes from angles that are basically deemed to fail, but once in a while he manages to simply smash a loop so that the ball will actually land back on my side of the table.

I did record a few of the matches and what i noticed is that this pusher basically brings out the worst in me.
I will accept the push game and lazily stay with my right foot infront because i know the next ball will again be short/a push. If you are then used to this slow game it is incredibly hard to change the mindset, get the proper stance to prepare for a forehand push.

On one hand this is the ideal training partner to learn how to get out of these silly push battles, but the plethora of opportunities posed by the many pushes which are basically attackable at least 50 % of the time (if i stood correctly) somehow makes one hesitant to go for the loop kill, since one thinks "the next one will even be more easy to attack". After some time of hesitation to attack one thinks "now it's enough" and will try to attack the next ball overzealously even though it might not be great to attack,

Somehow i try to pivot and forehand loop many balls, even though when i backhand loop the opponent blocks it out of the table 90% of the time.

It is really odd that one somehow instinctively mirrors the "bad" play of the opponent.

 

[pgpg]

do your local league ratings not get updated after every league play?

I think this might all be solved if we get a video of you guys playing each other

currently my USATT is 1550...but i only play in 3 tournaments a year now. Every tournament ive played in ive gone up in ratings. My (local) league ratings at 1650..and 1800 respectively (the club im 1800 is probably inflated by 100 or so points). I can win sets against opponents who are rating 2000. the highest rated player ive beaten in a club RR ins 1900 though.

I'm at a point where I can solidly beat any player (at my club) who is rated sub 1500. At a USATT tournament, i am sure there are plenty of youth who are rated around 1500 who would give me fits...but thats because they play more like 1800 or 1900 rated players.

anyways, i digress.

Yeah, video would've been good here - I'm having trouble getting an actual picture of what is happening otherwise. E.g. I've heard several times about strong loops being pushed, and I'm not sure I fully understand what that means... 'Block', 'chop' - sure, but 'push'?

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah, video would've been good here - I'm having trouble getting an actual picture of what is happening otherwise. E.g. I've heard several times about strong loops being pushed, and I'm not sure I fully understand what that means... 'Block', 'chop' - sure, but 'push'?

Of course video would have been good, but there is a reason why many people who post these things don't provide video - its because the video would show all the things they conveniently ignore to push their narrative. No one likes to lose to someone who appears to playing with less effort than they are. But it is pretty difficult to credit the player for what they are actually doing that bothers you because it requires you to admit ignorance or vice.

 

[TensorBackhand]

i can totally understand your issue against opponents that only push. I got a similar "training partner" who will only push or do very "wild" smashes from angles that are basically deemed to fail, but once in a while he manages to simply smash a loop so that the ball will actually land back on my side of the table.

I did record a few of the matches and what i noticed is that this pusher basically brings out the worst in me.
I will accept the push game and lazily stay with my right foot infront because i know the next ball will again be short/a push. If you are then used to this slow game it is incredibly hard to change the mindset, get the proper stance to prepare for a forehand push.

On one hand this is the ideal training partner to learn how to get out of these silly push battles, but the plethora of opportunities posed by the many pushes who are basically attackable at least 50 % of the time (if i stood correctly) somehow makes one hesitant to go for the loop kill, since one things "the next one will even be more easy to attack".
Somehow i try to pivot and forehand loop many balls, even though when i backhand loop the opponent blocks it out of the table 90% of the time.

It is really odd that one somehow instinctively mirrors the "bad" play of the opponent.

Of all comments, this one is the most representative of what's happening.

I do think that i start mirroring his style of play. And when i try to break out, im anxious and stiff and not myself.

 

[Brs]

Of all comments, this one is the most representative of what's happening.

I do think that i start mirroring his style of play. And when i try to break out, im anxious and stiff and not myself.

Sounds like poor shot selection by you. I coach a lot of these players who get into push battles and it consistently amazes me how they will pass up two or three easy balls only to attack a much more difficult one.

Ideally you could evaluate in real time and open as soon as you get a weak push. In reality your best bet is probably to open on the first one you get - it will be the weakest.

 

[SleepyMaster]

Well, once I got "lucky" and played against a retired former multiple Latvian champion in a tournament and all she did was push and chop with some slow thin inverted rubbers, kinda like Eugene Chtchetinine. I really struggled to open up against her pushes let alone rare repeated chops when I did manage to loop more than once in a row. I very strongly suspect that a 2000 player will most likely not look good against someone competent with using such style. Obviously, this is not the case OP refers to, but still.

Look there always be an exception from the rules in tt. I know a guys that can doing push/chops with t05 that is so heavy almsot like from long pips (it’s a guys with gazillion years of exp and amazing touch) - and I can trouble to lift them and need some time to adapt. Can happen to anyone if you not familiar with that style. The story was not about ex national level players.

But I was speaking about general awkward pushing from 1600 player scenario as OP telling and ability of 2000 player to deal with it

And for the style and technique - it shouldn’t be fancy to be effective. I know a guy that has wins over national level players and when you looking at him and his form - staying tall, chopping - flat kill high balls - nothing fancy but he managed to get about 2500/2600+ level.
Andrei Gacina when he played in our super league barely wins him 3:2 - there even their match existing on YouTube - so everyone can check I can give a link if someone interested

 

[TheProfessor]

Of all comments, this one is the most representative of what's happening.

I do think that i start mirroring his style of play. And when i try to break out, im anxious and stiff and not myself.

Basically you're somehow for lack of a better term, "playing down to his level." This definitely happens, sometimes it can be complacency, sometimes something else. Hope you can get through it.