Drills VS In Game

[Novarac23]

Yes, I agree. In my case getting to neutral (which involves small step back with both feet) was kind of automatic. But not watching the serve after the 1st bounce (or perhaps only incidentally), and instead focusing on the opponent gives me some extra precious time. Cheers.

After first bounce meaning after it hits your side of the table?

This video:

If you just start at 4:44 you will see some of the sickest most evil random multiball training. But if you watch the whole video and have your brain geared to analyzing what skills ZJK is working on with each different drill you will learn a lot about how much higher level training can get.

Hope you have fun with that.

Also, note how different ZJK's footwork is in those random drills than anyone's footwork would be in those simplified and idealized drills like 2 FH -> 2 BH or a drill like Falkenberg.

Thank you will review this!

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

After first bounce meaning after it hits your side of the table?

I can't put words in someone else's mouth or really know what they meant when they said something. But traditionally, after your stroke, your reset should be fast enough that you are SET, IN A READY POSITION, and WATCHING your opponent, BEFORE your shot bounces on the other side so you are Set, Ready and Watching BEFORE your opponent does what he is GOING to do with the ball.

On YOUR serve, the first bounce would be you set and ready to watch your opponent by the time your serve hits your side of the table. So, yeah, that is how fast you should be reset and ready to watch.

When you are watching, what you are watching is things that help you see what your opponent will do with the ball.

When you are making your shots, you should also have some part of your attention on what your opponent is doing and thinking.

JO Waldner was famous for seeing, as he was about to make a shot, his opponent anticipating a certain shot or side, and if the opponent broke towards the FH side before the shot was made he would adjust and hit the ball the opposite way so they were moving away from where his actual shot went.

And if you are set and watching your opponent before and as he is making his shot, it is much easier to read where the ball is going and get there. That kind of thing really helps you read the play of your opponent and respond intelligently and in a timely manner. But it takes a long time and a lot of training to be able to read like that at the speed of the game. Part of why is, the brain processing aspects of the game.

 

[Novarac23]

T

I can't put words in someone else's mouth or really know what they meant when they said something. But traditionally, after your stroke, your reset should be fast enough that you are SET, IN A READY POSITION, and WATCHING your opponent, BEFORE your shot bounces on the other side so you are Set, Ready and Watching BEFORE your opponent does what he is GOING to do with the ball.

On YOUR serve, the first bounce would be you set and ready to watch your opponent by the time your serve hits your side of the table. So, yeah, that is how fast you should be reset and ready to watch.

When you are watching, what you are watching is things that help you see what your opponent will do with the ball.

When you are making your shots, you should also have some part of your attention on what your opponent is doing and thinking.

JO Waldner was famous for seeing, as he was about to make a shot, his opponent anticipating a certain shot or side, and if the opponent broke towards the FH side before the shot was made he would adjust and hit the ball the opposite way so they were moving away from where his actual shot went.

And if you are set and watching your opponent before and as he is making his shot, it is much easier to read where the ball is going and get there. That kind of thing really helps you read the play of your opponent and respond intelligently and in a timely manner. But it takes a long time and a lot of training to be able to read like that at the speed of the game. Part of why is, the brain processing aspects of the game.

This genuinely might be game changing for me. Yesterday when I got into the ready position as soon as I served (~ around the first bounce) every time it was much easier to react/loop/block/whatever. I can’t wait to go tomorrow and do drills you proposed and focus on getting back in the position quickly (and for me staying low and watching the opponent)

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

This genuinely might be game changing for me. Yesterday when I got into the ready position as soon as I served (~ around the first bounce) every time it was much easier to react/loop/block/whatever. I can’t wait to go tomorrow and do drills you proposed and focus on getting back in the position quickly (and for me staying low and watching the opponent)

All racket sports are largely about what your opponent does and whether they successful in limiting what you can do. You can look great in training. But in a match, if your opponent does not let you do what you want and is successful and pressuring you into giving him what he wants, very good player can be made to look very awkward. So, you always want to be trying your best to be set and ready to watch what your opponent is going to send back to you. This also makes the game feel like a much more reasonable pace. When the game feels too fast and you are consistently feeling rushed and pressured by what your opponent is doing, you need to make your strokes more compact to help you get set sooner.

You can make an amazing shot that you hope and think is going to be a winner. But if you are not set for the next shot and the ball comes back, you can get burned by those giant strokes, or watching your shot.

 

[latej]

After first bounce meaning after it hits your side of the table?

I mean when I hit the ball actually with the blade. My formulation was not good.

Btw. I just returned from a match, it went 9:9, did 3W1L, tomorrow another match, but this time after driving 500km in the morning, I'm really curious how will I feel and play ;-) Cheers... Fight ;-)

 

[Novarac23]

All racket sports are largely about what your opponent does and whether they successful in limiting what you can do. You can look great in training. But in a match, if your opponent does not let you do what you want and is successful and pressuring you into giving him what he wants, very good player can be made to look very awkward. So, you always want to be trying your best to be set and ready to watch what your opponent is going to send back to you. This also makes the game feel like a much more reasonable pace. When the game feels too fast and you are consistently feeling rushed and pressured by what your opponent is doing, you need to make your strokes more compact to help you get set sooner.

You can make an amazing shot that you hope and think is going to be a winner. But if you are not set for the next shot and the ball comes back, you can get burned by those giant strokes, or watching your shot.

Again words of wisdom, I feel rushed 97% of the times and all of those are generally bad points.

 

[Novarac23]

So I tried the suggested technique of not watching the ball after the first bounce and it worked, but its unnatural for me so I have to practice it. However when I'm in a rally I also tried to only watch the ball after my hit and then focus on the oponent (before the bounce on their side of the table) this also somewhat worked but it feel super strange.

Then I was talking to folks in the club and they all mentioned that they actually just lock in on the ball at all times (I guess including the second bounce on oponents side) so that got me confused a bit. @UpSideDownCarl or anyone, should I be watching the ball the whole time then or just until it bounces off my side of the table? Sorry these might be silly questions but I feel like I have to figure this one out haha it's stopping me from improving my game

 

[latej]

So I tried the suggested technique of not watching the ball after the first bounce and it worked, but its unnatural for me so I have to practice it. However when I'm in a rally I also tried to only watch the ball after my hit and then focus on the oponent (before the bounce on their side of the table) this also somewhat worked but it feel super strange.

Then I was talking to folks in the club and they all mentioned that they actually just lock in on the ball at all times (I guess including the second bounce on oponents side) so that got me confused a bit. @UpSideDownCarl or anyone, should I be watching the ball the whole time then or just until it bounces off my side of the table? Sorry these might be silly questions but I feel like I have to figure this one out haha it's stopping me from improving my game

Don't worry about it that much, simply do it if it works for you. For me it helps if I know as soon as possible what the opponent intends to do with my serve... In the rally it's a bit different situation than right after the serve... Anyway, I don't think it is stopping you, just continue training, have fun, that's all that matters...

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

So I tried the suggested technique of not watching the ball after the first bounce and it worked, but its unnatural for me so I have to practice it. However when I'm in a rally I also tried to only watch the ball after my hit and then focus on the oponent (before the bounce on their side of the table) this also somewhat worked but it feel super strange.

Then I was talking to folks in the club and they all mentioned that they actually just lock in on the ball at all times (I guess including the second bounce on oponents side) so that got me confused a bit. @UpSideDownCarl or anyone, should I be watching the ball the whole time then or just until it bounces off my side of the table? Sorry these might be silly questions but I feel like I have to figure this one out haha it's stopping me from improving my game

One of the issues with the question is, it assumes you can only watch the ball or the opponent. This is not tunnel vision watching. If you are looking away from the ball, that will mess with your focus as well. You should be able to watch the ball and to watch your opponent and his racket and body language while watching the ball. And if your opponent is any good, then watching the ball as it goes towards your opponent's side should also put your opponent and his movement towards the ball after your shot into your line of vision.

Not one or the other. You should be watching the ball but widen your scope so that, in your peripheral you are also paying attention to what your opponent is doing: the racket, the angle of the racket (especially on contact), the contact of the ball, where your opponent is looking as he makes his shot, your opponent's body language. And remember, a savvy opponent can look cross court and hit the ball the opposite way but what his body is doing will often give that away.

 

[Novarac23]

One of the issues with the question is, it assumes you can only watch the ball or the opponent. This is not tunnel vision watching. If you are looking away from the ball, that will mess with your focus as well. You should be able to watch the ball and to watch your opponent and his racket and body language while watching the ball. And if your opponent is any good, then watching the ball as it goes towards your opponent's side should also put your opponent and his movement towards the ball after your shot into your line of vision.

Not one or the other. You should be watching the ball but widen your scope so that, in your peripheral you are also paying attention to what your opponent is doing: the racket, the angle of the racket (especially on contact), the contact of the ball, where your opponent is looking as he makes his shot, your opponent's body language. And remember, a savvy opponent can look cross court and hit the ball the opposite way but what his body is doing will often give that away.

yeah fair point, I did assume its one or the other. It's actually all the things (ball, oponent, paddle etc)

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

yeah fair point, I did assume its one or the other. It's actually all the things (ball, oponent, paddle etc)

By watching the ball, you should see the racket on contact and what is done to the ball. But while watching the ball, you do need to widen your scope so you also see your opponent.

It is also important, while watching the ball "into your racket" on your shot, to be watching your opponent. What I said about Waldner....there have been countless times where I saw my opponent break towards one side or the other before I had made contact. And I have been able to adjust my shot accordingly. This does not always mean directing my shot to the side away from where my opponent is heading. If an opponent is moving towards one wing and has committed towards that wing, hitting the ball straight at their body, at the switching point is very effective and only requires a minor adjustment.

So, for much of the time: when you are in the process of taking your shot, when your ball is moving towards your opponent, when your opponent is about to make his own shot, some amount of your sight and attention should be on what your opponent is doing.

And I know, it is easier said than done. But trying to work on this is a first step. At some point these things just happen without you needing to think about them. But at first it is effing hard to get in. I can remember so many times, working on these kinds of skill sa dn after one or two shots, realizing I was not paying attention to those details at all.

Our nervous system and our brain processing skills take a while to catch up to our physical coordination skills. And the mind is very hard to get control over at first. So, doing the work without thinking there is a rush.

I have also noticed that, in times when I have taken brakes from playing and training, I have improved my TT skills simply because not working on the physical stuff gave my brain a little time to catch up on all the stuff I was trying to force in. It is a long slow process, especially if you are working on improving as an adult.

 

[Novarac23]

By watching the ball, you should see the racket on contact and what is done to the ball. But while watching the ball, you do need to widen your scope so you also see your opponent.

It is also important, while watching the ball "into your racket" on your shot, to be watching your opponent. What I said about Waldner....there have been countless times where I saw my opponent break towards one side or the other before I had made contact. And I have been able to adjust my shot accordingly. This does not always mean directing my shot to the side away from where my opponent is heading. If an opponent is moving towards one wing and has committed towards that wing, hitting the ball straight at their body, at the switching point is very effective and only requires a minor adjustment.

So, for much of the time: when you are in the process of taking your shot, when your ball is moving towards your opponent, when your opponent is about to make his own shot, some amount of your sight and attention should be on what your opponent is doing.

And I know, it is easier said than done. But trying to work on this is a first step. At some point these things just happen without you needing to think about them. But at first it is effing hard to get in. I can remember so many times, working on these kinds of skill sa dn after one or two shots, realizing I was not paying attention to those details at all.

Our nervous system and our brain processing skills take a while to catch up to our physical coordination skills. And the mind is very hard to get control over at first. So, doing the work without thinking there is a rush.

I have also noticed that, in times when I have taken brakes from playing and training, I have improved my TT skills simply because not working on the physical stuff gave my brain a little time to catch up on all the stuff I was trying to force in. It is a long slow process, especially if you are working on improving as an adult.

Yeah makes sense. It will take time to get these right. Thank you for the wonderful input and advice!

 

[Der_Echte]

To those who do not yet have @NextLevel 's insight in this quote...

Now if you are complaining about how well you athletically move in matches, that is a related but different story. The reality is that most movement is fueled by anticipation, so it is not about how much you move, but whether and how soon you can read what the opponent is going to do and where the ball is going, and of course, the part of being ready to move and get to the ball is critical, but that is unlikely to make up for an inability to predict where the ball is going unless the opponent is significantly weaker and you are significantly athletic.

Such would utterly not comprehend how a near 60 yr old over 100kg Der_Echte gets to so many balls and hits them strong.

I assure all of you that Der_Echte is NOT the most raw athletic dude out there... and I move 10x BETTER than the days Carl and Next Level saw me.

I like to call some of what Next Level is discussing as GEOMOTRY. (and Probability)

if you have an understanding of angles, what you put on the ball in terms of spin, pace, placement... and opponent's position/ability/preferences... one can calculate a certain percentage of likelihood a ball will come back to suck and suck a place... and appropriately, be ready for that... so that makes moving to position a lot quicker/intuitive.

 

[Novarac23]

To those who do not yet have @NextLevel 's insight in this quote...



Such would utterly not comprehend how a near 60 yr old over 100kg Der_Echte gets to so many balls and hits them strong.

I assure all of you that Der_Echte is NOT the most raw athletic dude out there... and I move 10x BETTER than the days Carl and Next Level saw me.

I like to call some of what Next Level is discussing as GEOMOTRY. (and Probability)

if you have an understanding of angles, what you put on the ball in terms of spin, pace, placement... and opponent's position/ability/preferences... one can calculate a certain percentage of likelihood a ball will come back to suck and suck a place... and appropriately, be ready for that... so that makes moving to position a lot quicker/intuitive.

yeah that makes sense. For example: I've been trying to do a short underspin serve to FH then anticipating the ball to FH for a loop.

 

[Der_Echte]

As to the direct relevant issue of the drill... a drill can do a few things... it can be oriented to develop a certain shot or sequence... or it can be oriented to do the same things a player often does in a rally.

Which kind of things are done in rallies???

- Serve and ATTACK long ball
- Receive with long push and counter
- Receive with short push and counter
- Receive short and flip or loop depending on next ball
- serve, allow opponent to flip, then counter that flip

These are some of the most basic sequences of how a rally is initiated or done strong and won. Some of these are random unpredictable and help you be looking for that and still be aggressive.

There are other drills that do some common situations of longer rallies that happen in matches (that involve explosive footwork and ball striking)

- Push short serve short, BH long push return, block comes to BH, so you step around FH... ball gets blocked to wide FH... you power cross step and do a strong FH... ball gets blocked to wide BH... you cross step and do a BH... and partner keeps giving you the side to side blocking run around until someone misses

There are other drills involving RANDOM from the basic drills that help you in rallies by getting you to recover right and be ready...

Many modern rallies have BH to BH exchanges... and someone breaks rhythm, by hitting your middle of FH on the 3rd of 4th ball that is SUPPOSED to come to your BH... If you do this drill and can have a good recovery position with elbow a little to the front, then a one or two step or slide step to FH gets REAL easy and you are not caught off guard and have better offensive potential to win the point.

Of course what a wrote is a fraction of what is possible, but the idea is develop intuitive readiness and reaction to balls and experience at prepared offense. Being ready goes a long way and many drills are not good at being ready... you have to figure out your balance of developing basic technical abilities and how to put those abilities to action in sequence and or in reaction to random possible shots from opponents.

Sky is limit on your creativity and effectiveness of drills.

 

[Der_Echte]

yeah that makes sense. For example: I've been trying to do a short underspin serve to FH then anticipating the ball to FH for a loop.

Yes, that happens... and happens a LOT to some level of players... and you get great scoring opportunities from them... BUT... some players put that short serve short to your BH or FH... or fast/deep/low right at you (or wide) ... so it is helpful to develop drills and a willing partner who can and wants to do that to help you.

 

[Der_Echte]

yeah that makes sense. For example: I've been trying to do a short underspin serve to FH then anticipating the ball to FH for a loop.

Another example of the geometry you describe is when I was in Korea facing the J-Pen players... I give short medium or heavy underspin serve LOW and short to their BH... it is damned difficult for that player to do a quality return down my FH line without taking too much risk... (AND no one they ever play has a decent BH opening vs underspin) so default return is push cross court safe to BH...

I would eat that up and spin that sucka up and get points right away... then they would try for too much and make some errors and lose confidence... so it snowballed my way vs those near and under my level.

A lot of it is related to the quality NL describes... a poor quality ball and be sent anywhere and you have no profit from it.

 

[Novarac23]

Guys (and gals) it is insane the difference that it makes when watching the ball before I hit it, then oponent, then ball again until I hit it, makes on my game. I’m talking at least 500 USA TT rankings difference for me. I’m a humble 1040 now and this is a game changer for me. Do I do it consistently? No. Am I getting better at it? Yes.

All of the footwork drills are slowly showing up in my real game when I start watching the ball intentfully. Kinda amazing. And when I miss the shot 95% of the time its because I didn’t watch the ball.