Feedback on my loops against backspin

[Der_Echte]

OP,

You are striking the ball way too far in front of your effective strike zone. You do not get much leverage or spin this way or it is 10x more difficult/inconsistent to do so.

You are not coming up with legs or un-bowing before/with swing to generate kinetic energy to transfer to the ball.

You are swinging almost entirely forward, almost no lift... and you are not swinging with much power... so this incoming ball is pretty light underspin at best and not very representative of what you would face in a match.

It almost looks like you get down, reach out with arm and do a little slap with arm and wrist to the ball and come up after strike. Very awkward. Not very efficient.

Ideally, vs underspin, you should pre-load bat on backswing somewhere near your man-zone, squat down some and bow some, come out of squat and un-bow a little then start your swing as you are still coming up and forward. Do not move upper arm. Let ball drop down some more and come closer to you... swing upwards and forward, Follow shape of ball more than you are currently doing. Explode the power right at the end before impact. It isn't about making pro powerlifter power, it is about timing and explosion... which results in bat speed at the right moment right at impact.

 

[NextLevel]

Over the table spin. I am thinking out loud, perhaps if one were to use a tacky / hybrid rubber, it would be easier to BH spin short / over the table ball.

You are right, but not necessarily, many good over the table backhand players do well with Tenergy 05 or Dignics 05 as well as with Hurricane 3 or Dignics 09c or K3. In fact I had an experiment just today/yesterday where I was trying to replace my Skyline 3 with Dignics 05 and the results were generally positive. In the end, you just need something that picks up the ball, which is some combination of topsheet grip and for some players, soft sponge helps them drive the ball a bit more, for others not so much. And yes some players prefer sticky rubber to pick up all kinds of balls but that also means spin reactivity. As in all things in table tennis, lots of equipment is reasonable at our level, the rest is just technical practice and experimentation to find what reasonable works for you.

 

[Zeen]

lots of good advice already.
so maybe to simplify and summarize, here the advice for backhand in short.

1. try to loop a heavy underspin from a human long push
2. stand slightly further away to swing only over the table
3. get good vertical backswing.
4. play the ball close to the body
5. use more open bat angle, swing to the head
6. squat down with the legs and push up to help lift the backspin while spinning.

that way, you can have a nice and consistent slow spinny loop.

one more tip:

shots which are composed of 50% speed and 50% spin are usually the easiest for the opponent to block.
so it is often a good idea to practice topspin with 80% spin and 20% speed and the other way around.

Good luck!

 

[Novarac23]

Thank you all for the amazing feedback, super helpful! And Zeen I was just about to summarize it and you beat me to it Question though, what do you mean by point #4? Is it that to wait for the ball to get closer to me or?

 

[Zeen]

Thank you all for the amazing feedback, super helpful! And Zeen I was just about to summarize it and you beat me to it Question though, what do you mean by point #4? Is it that to wait for the ball to get closer to me or?

Yes. That way it is easier to play vertically and make a slow spinny loop.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Thank you all for the amazing feedback, super helpful! And Zeen I was just about to summarize it and you beat me to it Question though, what do you mean by point #4? Is it that to wait for the ball to get closer to me or?

Hi novaracs

here is a helpful video
basic spinny loop against backspin

at first you should try to emphasise the spin and height of the ball
good luck

 

[ander999]

All the previous advice mentioned is great. I think one that is overlooked though is to be relaxed. It looks like you are trying too hard to get the ball over the net. You should be relaxed, which will let you have a fast and smooth acceleration into the ball which will cause you to have a good brush on the ball.

 

[Aizen]

I’ve realized there is FH part too,
(Sorry the edit is bad, made on the phone)
1st is the bounce: your backswing is too big and early -> hard to catch timing
And not under ball, hard to lift ball.

3rd photo is contact point, timing is not bad in FH, but it is clearly not in front of you, you can’t utilize power and control the ball.
I think A little step back and right is needed even if you want to hit to Parallel.

 

[mr_rage]

One crucial point, maybe the most important when loop heavy backspin is your "body" have to be lower than the ball, and also oppositely apply for heavy topspin ball, your "body" have to be higher than the ball.

The "body" will depend on amount of backspin:
- Heavy backspin: Your chest need to be same height or lower than the ball, to attack back the normal slow push (low wrist acceleration)
- Heavy heavy backspin: Your eye need to be same height or lower than the ball, to attack back the fast long push (high wrist acceleration) or long pip block/chop ball

As your "body" have to be lower than the ball, it already require to swat down, and push up to help lift backspin.

For the case with heavy heavy backspin, BH loop seem impossible, so just normally use BH push or FH loop.

 

[TackyForehand]

You need to hit under the ball. Hitting the side or top on a backspin won't provide enough lift to clear the net. Hit under the ball and forward.

 

[Novarac23]

All amazing points!

I’ve realized there is FH part too,
(Sorry the edit is bad, made on the phone)
1st is the bounce: your backswing is too big and early -> hard to catch timing
And not under ball, hard to lift ball.

3rd photo is contact point, timing is not bad in FH, but it is clearly not in front of you, you can’t utilize power and control the ball.
I think A little step back and right is needed even if you want to hit to Parallel.

When you say that my backswing is too big and early, do you mean that I should wait a bit before I start the movoment? Also by big you mean my hand goes too far back? Also when you say that its not in front of me, what do you mean by that? Is it just that the ball should be in front? A bit confused by that one.

All the previous advice mentioned is great. I think one that is overlooked though is to be relaxed. It looks like you are trying too hard to get the ball over the net. You should be relaxed, which will let you have a fast and smooth acceleration into the ball which will cause you to have a good brush on the ball.

This I def noticed before. I feel like I have to be very mindful because my default is to get very stiff for whatever reason. However when I remind myself that I can be more relaxed things flow a lot smoother in general.

 

[Aizen]

All amazing points!


When you say that my backswing is too big and early, do you mean that I should wait a bit before I start the movoment? Also by big you mean my hand goes too far back? Also when you say that its not in front of me, what do you mean by that? Is it just that the ball should be in front? A bit confused by that one.

Ideally using small steps, you should align your body with ball trajectory, anticipate peak point length, track ball with both hands, as soon as ball lands do backswing (you have plenty of time), then hit the ball at highest or a just bit later, while accelerating.

Your very big backswing can exhaust your all acceleration before ball explain.

The contact point of ball is on right of you, not in front. Hard to explain by text, but at second picture is ball in front of you, so also you don’t need over backswing and generate power much easier. Almost the ball is passed you in 3rd photo.

Of course at second picture, it’s a bit early to hit. So 1 small step back and right will solve.

If you try these two (timing and position), you won’t believe how it’s easy to spin.

Even tough it seems good at first glance, You can compare your shots frame by frame to see improvement points more clearly.

 

[Takkyu_ga_suki]

I noticed before hitting backhands, your right foot is slightly behind your left, and most of the time, you then move your right foot even with your left before striking the ball (or slightly ahead? I can't tell from the vid).

I'll leave it to the experts here to determine whether that slight right foot movement is something worth eliminating.

 

[Amayzde]

If I were you give you 1 tip, it would be to use your legs more to lift the ball up.

I see you are getting your upwards momentum in your strokes, in both backhand and forehand from your shoulder and arm.

When the ball comes thowards you you get nice and low, bending your knees, waiting to strike the ball. But when you do strike the ball, you don't use the power of your legs to lift the ball. You do move your legs, but this is only after you already hit at the ball with your arm first.

So, how do you use your legs to lift the ball? Well the easiest explaination I can give you is to 'stand up' with the ball, as you are striking it. This makes your body create the upwards momentum.

Just like like this guy throwing a heavy medicine ball. He uses his legs before he uses his arms:

Lots of people seem to forget about this, but your lower body is much stronger then your shoulder. Even though you play with a racket in your hand and a table tennis ball only weights a few grams, doesn't mean you shouldn't use your legs!

This goes for both backhand and forehand. With your backhand you want to use your left leg slightly more, and your right leg slightly more with your forehand (for righthanders that is).

Try it out next time you practice looping against underspin. And when you do it right you will be amazed at how easy it is to lift the ball.

Edit: I forgot to mention this just in case: of course you shouldn’t fully stand up or jump when looping. Try to stand up slightly while still maintaining good foreward posture.

 

[Aizen]

You might be overwhelmed by tons of advise but although I agree most

You may focus on this order:

1- positioning
2- timing
3- relaxing (wrist, forearm, shoulder, body, mind..)
4- arm movement on stroke
5- racket angle & position on contact
6- body movement on stoke (power from wrist, belly or upper leg)
7- brushing (spin quality)
8- follow through
..
15..- speed
…
….
99… changing a rubber or a blade 😬

 

[Novarac23]

Again all amazing comments! Thanks y’all! Will try and implement those next time I practice. I have a tournament on Saturday, so probably not going to work on it until then but will do next week

You might be overwhelmed by tons of advise but although I agree most

You may focus on this order:

1- positioning
2- timing
3- relaxing (wrist, forearm, shoulder, body, mind..)
4- arm movement on stroke
5- racket angle & position on contact
6- body movement on stoke (power from wrist, belly or upper leg)
7- brushing (spin quality)
8- follow through
..
15..- speed
…
….
99… changing a rubber or a blade 😬

Ok so I’m going to start from #99 and go down! Whats the best rubber for this? just kidding haha I’m going to focus on 1-8 first 💪

 

[Jslick89]

Thank you for the feedback! Will try and alternate next time! Generally I don’t find alternating between shots a huge problem but not sure whats going to happen in the underspin scenario

funny...that is where most people my level struggle the most......what is your USATT rating?

 

[Novarac23]

funny...that is where most people my level struggle the most......what is your USATT rating?

So I actually don’t have a rating yet. I’m playing my first tournament on Saturday! But when I was living in Europe I used to play a decent amount (high school-ish era) + I was playing sports and done fitness my whole life. Coach In our gym, based on the way I played with him and watching my game probably around 1400 but we will see! I think I have some good stuff going on with my game but still lots of room for improvment as evident by the comments

 

[kindof99]

The timing is definitely not paced for looping backspin ball. It seems that you do not have/know the correct timing yet. And it is usually better to start with a slower pace than faster one. You can wait until the top of the bounce before you back swing.

And hitting too hard is not a good way to start. Learn to backswing with a loose wrist and add spin. That will give you a much better higher limit in your game.

 

[kindof99]

So I actually don’t have a rating yet. I’m playing my first tournament on Saturday! But when I was living in Europe I used to play a decent amount (high school-ish era) + I was playing sports and done fitness my whole life. Coach In our gym, based on the way I played with him and watching my game probably around 1400 but we will see! I think I have some good stuff going on with my game but still lots of room for improvment as evident by the comments

I would say tha you gave good advice as well. For looping against backspin balls, timing is almost the most important factor for beginner/intermediate, and you are the first one that mentioned it in the post.

You don't need to be a national player to be a coach. I know a lot of top pro suck at coaching.