FH-Topspin trainingsession with Battle 2 Bluesponge on FZD ALC

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Don't want to derail Attitude's training thread too much but can you go into a bit more detail into the best ways to punish people with overly fast setups?

For service are there any specific serves you found that are reliably harder for fast rubber to handle? Or is it still about mixing up various spins and having bigger effect of them "guessing wrong"?

Outside of service, what other strategies are there for getting them to pop the ball up or send balls long?

I ask because almost everyone I run into people here in Vietnam has blazing fast setups regardless of experience and I'd really love to start beating them more with my cheapo setups.
If your serves are not easy to read you gonna have an ez game here on your servers. I would hardly put full spin into every serve. Doesnt matter much which kind of spin because people with (too) fast setups for them usually will return mostly everything back long if there is enough spin.

But a good opponent will be able to bring back your serves sooner or later. More important is your style during the rallyes. I would advise to rely on shorter, spinnier and flatter balls. Dont drag the rallye too far out of the table. If you attack, attack with as much spin as possible and shorter on the table.
If you are able to push really short behind the net, make use of it. A short push against someone with a fast setup will always bring back a longer ball you should be capable of looping.

I myself train against someone with a fast setup on a regular basis. And i often get the upper hand against him with these strategies though he plays around 150 TTR above me.

Hope that helps
 
says Looking for a bat that makes me faster
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Don't want to derail Attitude's training thread too much but can you go into a bit more detail into the best ways to punish people with overly fast setups?

For service are there any specific serves you found that are reliably harder for fast rubber to handle? Or is it still about mixing up various spins and having bigger effect of them "guessing wrong"?

Outside of service, what other strategies are there for getting them to pop the ball up or send balls long?

I ask because almost everyone I run into people here in Vietnam has blazing fast setups regardless of experience and I'd really love to start beating them more with my cheapo setups.
With extra fast setup, soft touches (e.g. short push) and brushing techniques (e.g. brush loop) are more difficult. So super-short serve (bounce >2 times on table) and half-long serve (second bounce just outside the edge of table) could be effective.

If your opponent can't move fast enough to flick well, try to put as little backspin on your super-short serve, force them to push, which will very likely to pop up for you to attack. On the other hand, put more backspin on your half-long serve. When I do this serve, I rarely disguise it; it's challenging my opponent to return it well enough. If their opening up loop is poor I will punch the return.
 
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Don't want to derail Attitude's training thread too much but can you go into a bit more detail into the best ways to punish people with overly fast setups?

For service are there any specific serves you found that are reliably harder for fast rubber to handle? Or is it still about mixing up various spins and having bigger effect of them "guessing wrong"?

Outside of service, what other strategies are there for getting them to pop the ball up or send balls long?

I ask because almost everyone I run into people here in Vietnam has blazing fast setups regardless of experience and I'd really love to start beating them more with my cheapo setups.
Don't want to derail Attitude's training thread too much but can you go into a bit more detail into the best ways to punish people with overly fast setups?

For service are there any specific serves you found that are reliably harder for fast rubber to handle? Or is it still about mixing up various spins and having bigger effect of them "guessing wrong"?

Outside of service, what other strategies are there for getting them to pop the ball up or send balls long?

I ask because almost everyone I run into people here in Vietnam has blazing fast setups regardless of experience and I'd really love to start beating them more with my cheapo setups.
Yes it's all about deception and spin/placement variation. Firstly you need really spinny serves and then learn to vary them. The hardest spins to receive are BH pendulum/FH hook/reverse pendulum/tomahawk to their short FH corner, FH pendulum to their short BH. The sidetopspin variant is usually the killer because most ppl have terrible flicks but good pushes.

On receive I have the philosophy of treating it like a serve, ie you have to have the same receive movement which produces 2 different spins and add some fake movements. For eg no spin push with the fake forward roll to make it look like heavy underspin. Or a spinny push with a flick followthrough. My fav these days are the fade movements (like doing a BH/FH pendulum serve on the receive), you can generate heavy sidetopspin or sideunderspin depending on how you contact it.

Same with loops, if you can do both a heavy spin loop and a weak spin loop with similar movement, it will really mess opponents up, especially those with bouncy inverted rubbers will be affected worse than those with a tamer setup.
 
says Currently in a dilemma between 5+2 or 7 ply allwood blade
says Currently in a dilemma between 5+2 or 7 ply allwood blade
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Don't want to derail Attitude's training thread too much but can you go into a bit more detail into the best ways to punish people with overly fast setups?

For service are there any specific serves you found that are reliably harder for fast rubber to handle? Or is it still about mixing up various spins and having bigger effect of them "guessing wrong"?

Outside of service, what other strategies are there for getting them to pop the ball up or send balls long?

I ask because almost everyone I run into people here in Vietnam has blazing fast setups regardless of experience and I'd really love to start beating them more with my cheapo setups.

Ia blazing fast, typically like, 3+2 hinoki-composite bazookas (sardius, garaydia, schlager, gergely, axelo, etc.) paired with tensors, tenergies, dignics?


If it is so, typically the strategy they're using is try to open up chances to smack/whack/flat hit the balls to finish points quickly, or simply said, loops only for opening, the rest is just a simple no-spin game, or if they feel the ball is 'theirs', they just hit/slap it


Usually, a better ball pace control, ball placements, and high-quality loops are pretty much giving them disadvantage. Of course, avoid no-spin game except you sure you're on advantage against them
 
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Ia blazing fast, typically like, 3+2 hinoki-composite bazookas (sardius, garaydia, schlager, gergely, axelo, etc.) paired with tensors, tenergies, dignics?


If it is so, typically the strategy they're using is try to open up chances to smack/whack/flat hit the balls to finish points quickly, or simply said, loops only for opening, the rest is just a simple no-spin game, or if they feel the ball is 'theirs', they just hit/slap it


Usually, a better ball pace control, ball placements, and high-quality loops are pretty much giving them disadvantage. Of course, avoid no-spin game except you sure you're on advantage against them
You have just described my fav strategy. Luv it!
 
says Currently in a dilemma between 5+2 or 7 ply allwood blade
says Currently in a dilemma between 5+2 or 7 ply allwood blade
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Hi everyone,

Attitude is using a chinese tacky rubber and I just want to compare and contrast his FH topspin with mine. Do you all notice that he has to use a sh1t load of power to spin the ball over, whereas mine is assisted by the ESN tensioned rubber that trampoline the ball over much much easier. Just a little show and tell how different rubber creates different user strokes.

Do you guys think I am using too much arm / upper body strength and not enough lower body strength? Is it because of the trampoline effect I can get away with a lazier stroke ( not using the whole body? )


Even just slight, it is evident that you're actually using the lower part of body. It is mostly going upward, though.

Try to go more forward with the body, and also try to 'bounce' by stepping with toes, perhaps more like tiptoe-ing.
 
says Currently in a dilemma between 5+2 or 7 ply allwood blade
says Currently in a dilemma between 5+2 or 7 ply allwood blade
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You have just described my fav strategy. Luv it!

For us hobbyists, no matter what level we're at, the strategy is to keep opponents at discomfort. And of course focusing on consistency is one primary thing to achieve, especially in this 40+ ball era, and I've learned it the hard way. 3rd ball attack bombardment, brutal forehand pivot loopdrives, yes they're effective enough during 40mm. Once the 40+ kicks in, even using slightly faster setups to gain more 'advantage' doesn't help, except for more high-intensity cardio during games and plays, running around try to blast everything :ROFLMAO:
 
says Making a beautiful shot is most important; winning is...
says Making a beautiful shot is most important; winning is...
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For us hobbyists, no matter what level we're at, the strategy is to keep opponents at discomfort. And of course focusing on consistency is one primary thing to achieve, especially in this 40+ ball era, and I've learned it the hard way. 3rd ball attack bombardment, brutal forehand pivot loopdrives, yes they're effective enough during 40mm. Once the 40+ kicks in, even using slightly faster setups to gain more 'advantage' doesn't help, except for more high-intensity cardio during games and plays, running around try to blast everything :ROFLMAO:
Tell me about it. Now is mainly BH - BH rally first then boom!
 
says Currently in a dilemma between 5+2 or 7 ply allwood blade
says Currently in a dilemma between 5+2 or 7 ply allwood blade
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Tell me about it. Now is mainly BH - BH rally first then boom!

Yes, perhaps typical rally nowadays mostly involve BH to BH exchange, and topspin rallies with noticeably closer to table compared to the older generation. Less beauty to watch it is, but proven to be effective in this era.

Let's just assume serve and receive is not a big problem leading to 'feed' the receiving end. That's the least thing needed. Regarding offensive strokes, blocks, counters, it's better to consult with coaches or more capable practice partners, and one must encourage themself to apply it in games. It definitely relates with quality, but no worry, it'll come, as time goes by (yep, like that one Casablanca song. As Time Goes By :LOL:), and of course through dedicated training

Us mortals/hobbyist, let's keep it simple. To create discomfort, focus on reading the practice partner/opponent movement tendencies. Even if our flicks/loops/topspins/dropshots/etc. are not a good quality, just make sure it goes into the table, and where they expect least. Chances are, they 'give up', or forcing to 'reach' the ball, which cause them to lose balance. After that, of course it's up to you, whether you blast it off, or simply place it out of their reach (again), or whatever you do to end the point. It's all about tactics and reading movement. And of course, that also applies to us, so make sure to read what they're going to give us too, anticipate well, and keep the balls on the table. 10 balls received, 11 must be returned, that's the main mindset.

Seems simple, yet sometimes hard to execute, though. Just keep calm, composed, aal is weel :geek:

P.S. : make sure to keep forehand and backhand as balanced as possible. It really helps one to keep on going closer to table, while efficiently keeping pressure towards receiving end
 
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Thanks for your input so far guys. Really appreciate that.
Another little thing i found out watching my vod again, is that i had a pretty close batangle early on. Especially on the first shots that arent in this cut here. Later on a opened my racket a bit more and hit way better shots (just for thought^^).

So to sum that up im gonna work on the following for now in the upcoming offseason:
- Working more closer to the table over all
- Position my body more forward towards the palm/toes of my feet by having those in a not so horizontal position
- Swing my attacks more to the left side of my body and try to recover faster from my left foot
- Be more lose with my lower body and try to move faster through that

The biggest problem is the last point i suppose, because i struggle becoming faster for around half this year. Any suggestions on how to develop this better? Any training methods, drills or exercises i could go for to enhance this development?
 
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says Looking for a bat that makes me faster
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Thanks for your input so far guys. Really appreciate that.
Another little thing i found out watching my vod again, is that i had a pretty close batangle early on. Especially on the first shots that arent in this cut here. Later on a opened my racket a bit more and hit way better shots (just for thought^^).

So to sum that up im gonna work on the following for now in the upcoming offseason:
- Working more closer to the table over all
- Position my body more forward towards the palm/toes of my feet by having those in a not so horizontal position
- Swing my attacks more to the left side of my body and try to recover faster from my left foot
- Be more lose with my lower body and try to move faster through that

The biggest problem is the last point i suppose, because i struggle becoming faster for around half this year. Any suggestions on how to develop this better? Any training methods, drills or exercises i could go for to enhance this development?
Moving faster or swing faster?

For moving, skipping can help. Make it easier to stay on your toe. Losing weight will also help but that only applies if you are overweight.

For swinging, I find stretches helps. Once I become more flexible, I can swing more effortlessly. That also helps recovering. Especially the waist and torso rotation.
 
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Thanks for your input so far guys. Really appreciate that.
Another little thing i found out watching my vod again, is that i had a pretty close batangle early on. Especially on the first shots that arent in this cut here. Later on a opened my racket a bit more and hit way better shots (just for thought^^).

So to sum that up im gonna work on the following for now in the upcoming offseason:
- Working more closer to the table over all
- Position my body more forward towards the palm/toes of my feet by having those in a not so horizontal position
- Swing my attacks more to the left side of my body and try to recover faster from my left foot
- Be more lose with my lower body and try to move faster through that

The biggest problem is the last point i suppose, because i struggle becoming faster for around half this year. Any suggestions on how to develop this better? Any training methods, drills or exercises i could go for to enhance this development?
On the last point, what I found is that you'll automatically become faster the smaller your arm backswings are and the more body powered they are. From my experience, I didn't even do much specific drills but I did get much, much faster after I eliminated arm backswings from most of my game.
 
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The biggest problem is the last point i suppose, because i struggle becoming faster for around half this year. Any suggestions on how to develop this better? Any training methods, drills or exercises i could go for to enhance this development?

I think "getting faster" can be formulated as "getting used to speed"... To be more often in such situations. Probably multi-ball is the best, and the robot 2nd best.

All the exercises are known to you...

When I saw NDH's and blahness'es comments I understand what they speak about, but I don't know how to improve. One thing I noticed is that it appeared to me from that angle, that you sometimes end up a bit bent in the lower spine. But it may be the angle, or it may be a consequence of something else...
 
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says Currently in a dilemma between 5+2 or 7 ply allwood blade
says Currently in a dilemma between 5+2 or 7 ply allwood blade
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Thanks for your input so far guys. Really appreciate that.
Another little thing i found out watching my vod again, is that i had a pretty close batangle early on. Especially on the first shots that arent in this cut here. Later on a opened my racket a bit more and hit way better shots (just for thought^^).

So to sum that up im gonna work on the following for now in the upcoming offseason:
- Working more closer to the table over all
- Position my body more forward towards the palm/toes of my feet by having those in a not so horizontal position
- Swing my attacks more to the left side of my body and try to recover faster from my left foot
- Be more lose with my lower body and try to move faster through that

The biggest problem is the last point i suppose, because i struggle becoming faster for around half this year. Any suggestions on how to develop this better? Any training methods, drills or exercises i could go for to enhance this development?

A bit of personal recipes, starting from warm-up stretches :

1. Before warming up, or during free time at home, try to do some boxing tiptoe-jumping to 'lighten' one's foot

2. While warm-up strokes, involve more waist/torso rotation to create the habit of 'engage' the ball with the waist/torso rotation. If this point is found to be confusing, try searching Harimoto's forehand topspin against block training videos. In my personal view, he's one athlete with most obvious/evident waist/torso rotation. One parameter indicsting a good/right progression, is when one feels there's some kind of extra 'oomph'/'slingshot effect' when doing topspins from waist/torso rotation, that even with the smallest/most compact stance, it feels there's more 'oomph' in one's topspin.

3. During topspins, contact the ball at the apex, don't wait for ot to descend. Big swings, smaller swings, it depends. If one's feeling 'sluggish', try make smaller, compact swing for quicker backswing and recovery movements.

4. One thing most detailed coaches I've met knows, but mostly forgotten by us mortals (or maybe neglected, since if doing it the wrong way might cause serious injuries affecting muscles surrounding our lumbar spine area, even worst the lumbar spine itself) : try to contract/crunch the abdominal muscles when contacting the ball. This results extra 'whip' without over-forcing hip/lumbar muscles, and also helps re-position body stances to 'neutral'. To get the feeling of this (and of course avoiding the risk of any injuries), during spare/free time, whether sitting down on a chair or standing up, rotate the waist/torso to the right side (or left side, for left-handers. Or just try it both sides), and contract/crunch abs. When one feels there's some kind of 'urge' to return facing affront, and that's it. That's the feeling one should be getting. This may sound weird, but somehow it magically is how our muscles work. Simple example, no bodybuilders, gym rats, etc. contract/crunch their abs while twisting/rotating their body during constests's on-stage performance, or a mere short video for social medias, right? It is more natural when facing affront.

While trying to apply these points, make sure not to rush. Try to do it slowly, as 'chill' as possible, and systematically. Get the hang of it, get the 'feel', and gradually escalate things up.

Bat angle, there's no right or wrong. Some prefer more open angle, some are extremely closed. Just do what feels natural, as relaxed as possible. And of course, always 'bring it forward'.
 
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Moving faster or swing faster?

For moving, skipping can help. Make it easier to stay on your toe. Losing weight will also help but that only applies if you are overweight.

For swinging, I find stretches helps. Once I become more flexible, I can swing more effortlessly. That also helps recovering. Especially the waist and torso rotation.

Mostly moving. I am already quite flexible already.
Last match i won 3:0, though it was way harder than it should be, just because i couldnt move into my fh fast enough and had to make several really awkward shots. I mean they were enough but felt really uncomfortable.
If i could move faster overall that match would have felt way more secure to win, than it was actually was.
 
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On the last point, what I found is that you'll automatically become faster the smaller your arm backswings are and the more body powered they are. From my experience, I didn't even do much specific drills but I did get much, much faster after I eliminated arm backswings from most of my game.
You are certainly correct about that (especially the part about the body), but for several shots and because of my current technique im quite reliant on hard strokes for which i need a bigger swing. Several times i definitly might be able and should reduce them quite a bit, but certainly not always or in general.

EDIT: After watching some training videos from some pros again i must say, that nearly all of them have a shorter stroke than i have, but definitly not in terms of a later startingposition. Most harder loops or topspins start behind the back but end before the racket reaches the level of the head/vision (or right at the same level) and rarely goes beyond that. Not so rarely my arm goes beyond that and even blocks my sight.

But over all comparing these videos to mine it is quite obvious that i move and recover waaaaaayy slower, which would seem to be the biggest issue.
 
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You are certainly correct about that (especially the part about the body), but for several shots and because of my current technique im quite reliant on hard strokes for which i need a bigger swing. Several times i definitly might be able and should reduce them quite a bit, but certainly not always or in general.

EDIT: After watching some training videos from some pros again i must say, that nearly all of them have a shorter stroke than i have, but definitly not in terms of a later startingposition. Most harder loops or topspins start behind the back but end before the racket reaches the level of the head/vision (or right at the same level) and rarely goes beyond that. Not so rarely my arm goes beyond that and even blocks my sight.

But over all comparing these videos to mine it is quite obvious that i move and recover waaaaaayy slower, which would seem to be the biggest issue.
I think for FH topspin you already use your body well without much arm backswing (except for the weight transfer part but I think it's a quick fix), I was thinking of other strokes like serve, push, flick, etc... I keep on finding stuff to optimise in my game too in terms of using better movements.
 
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How well do hard chinese tacky rubbers play on such a fast and stiff blade like FJD or ZJK ALC? I heared these type of rubbers only play good on flexible blades with limba outer. I have Y14 pro which is a Timo boll ALC clone so I'm curious whether or not I should try them
I think it should be fine. A lot of players use Hurricane on outer alc blades. Kasumi Ishikawa, FZD, LGY, Lin Shidong, Zhang Jike
 
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