How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[LDM7]

I stand by everything I wrote, I did not misrepresent anything.

No, Eman was great tonight. That's why i said "thank you for putting up with me" when he was leaving

my frustration is not from winning or missing a simple block, it's more i didn't or couldn't make the adjustment when he pointed it out time and time again ... i don't think that's normal, i don't think that's good

when someone that's at least 900 points better plays doubles with you for more than fifteen games, one should at least make some kind of adjustment when he points it out to you ... i just keep forgetting, i don't know why

i mean ... it's not that hard

there were mainly two things he was trying to get me to adjust:

1) get off the table so i have more time

2) service return: commit to FH or BH not parallel to the table (leverage)

 

[Brs]

If the 2100 guy played doubles with you for *15 games* then he was having fun, no question. Strong players who are very gracious will play way down for a match or maybe two just out of kindness. But they don't play with you all night unless it's fun for them.

And doubles is fun, because teamwork. We don't get that playing an individual sport, and with no leagues in the US to generate the team feeling. We miss out on a lot. Doubles is also awesome training because you must move or you get hit by a bat. And it's very good training to not give up and not get down. You aren't just screwing yourself if you let your mind go, but your partner too. And most people can be mentally bad to themselves but much less with a partner.

Here is a training idea for LDM7 so in a few months you will say 'I love doubles!'

If you ever find an odd person out at the club, play with them on singles and you and der on doubles. I did this in training recently with a couple of friends - one is a coach, the other a relative beginner. So beginner played singles against me and the coach on doubles. That was fun, and I learned a hell of a lot about how to play doubles because we weren't much pressured by her shots, only by us having to take turns playing. And it was awesome for the beginner, because the handicap wasn't in points, it was this constraint that exposed our deficient movement and teamwork. Highly recommended exercise.

 

[IB66]

Hope you guys had a good Xmas.
Haven’t had much chance to play over the last couple of weeks.
last time I played was in a serve receive group coaching session run by Tom Lodziak, 5hrs of TT, real work out of the old knees!! Took about 3 days for them to recover!!
Great session, went through the ins and outs of receiving serves.
basic returns, placement, how to return serves more aggressively and the resulting consistency drop. Double edged sword that one!!!
How to use short strokes for fast serve returns, using pace already on the ball, reading spin and ball flight etc etc.
A lot of the session was based on self analysis with input from the coaches. Finding what works best for you.
So a routine would be server serves FH backspin serve short / 1/2 long, to BH, regular routine, receiver tries 3 types of return, early short push, long faster push, flick. Point is played out. Then repeated to FH. Which worked best? Which was most consistent? Which did receiver win most points with?
This routine was repeated with top spin serves to BH and FH ( all with some side spin )
Progressing to server has freedom to serve any length any spin, irregular routines.
players moved around the tables after each routine so that they played with everyone, and experienced many types of serve action, spin levels, deception etc

I think the overall consensus was that reading the serve and what spin, how much spin is on the ball is the most difficult part especially when the server has a tricky deceptive serve action. This became apparent in the reading spin section of the session. As we know there are things to look - for bat angle, swing direction at impact, how much of the rubber can be seen, can you see logo on the ball? ball flight etc, this some people do better than others, but a lot of it comes down to experience.

Really enjoyable session😆

 

[IB66]

Every club v club local league match usually has 1 doubles, sometimes it’s game 6, sometimes game 10. Depending on game format each league uses.
When it’s game 10, the last game of the night, it can be the decider in a close match!!! It doesn’t ‘feel’ the same when it’s game 6, sort of less important, in reality it’s just as important but when it’s game 10 and the match score is 4-5 then it gains some importance!!!

I prefer it being game 10!!! Doubles is fun!! We played a lot of doubles on busy club nights, so it’s nothing unusual.
That extra dimension of not letting your partner down adds to the game!!
Understanding your partners game, strengths and weaknesses, is a major part. Playing to these strengths can be difficult!!
Server and receiver rotation can change the game, I’ve lost count of the amount of times when the 1st end is lost easily and 2nd won easily, 3rd lost, 4th won, 5th close!!! This adds another dimension to the game!!

This season I started to use a serve signal with whoever my partner is. In singles you ‘know’ what spin and amount of spin you are going to serve and ‘should’ have an idea of how the ball will be returned and what stroke is likely to be played, whereas your partner doesn’t!! 1 finger = long back spin, 1/2 of 1 finger short back spin, 2 fingers long no spin, 2 1/2 fingers short no spin, anyway you get the idea!!
It’s worked pretty well.
One partner I played a few doubles with has a great FH loop v back spin and a better loop drive v topspin. So he wants the ball to his FH. I use BH side under or side top serve. Both being righties the BH serve with side spin is likely to get the ball returned to his FH, sure not every time but a high percentage of the time, knowing the basic spin on the ball allows him to prepare in advance.

Doubles is great fun and you can learn sooooo much from it!!!!

 

[NextLevel]

With your serves, I can imagine the kind of coordination that is necessary. I have some serves that when I use them, I am scared to attack if the ball comes back on the table because of how heavy I made the serve. Makes me scared to use them in doubles as my teammate doesnt have the connection to the serve and may underestimate what is on the ball lol.

 

[Der_Echte]

No, Eman was great tonight. That's why i said "thank you for putting up with me" when he was leaving

my frustration is not from winning or missing a simple block, it's more i didn't or couldn't make the adjustment when he pointed it out time and time again ... i don't think that's normal, i don't think that's good

when someone that's at least 900 points better plays doubles with you for more than fifteen games, one should at least make some kind of adjustment when he points it out to you ... i just keep forgetting, i don't know why

i mean ... it's not that hard

there were mainly two things he was trying to get me to adjust:

1) get off the table so i have more time

2) service return: commit to FH or BH not parallel to the table (leverage)

LDM7,

There are 2000 level players who do not make adjustments in Doubles in an important tourney... ask Ali and Suhir.

Do not feel too badly about it, you got a gazillion worth of experience and reps that will help you a lot later. You noticed that Roman, prolly 800 points higher rated did NOT murder most of your basic serves? He made a lot of errors attacking and when he was uncertain, Emad made our team pay for it. You don't remember all those early games where I pushed serve to you, and you attacked and won 90%+ of those points?

 

[IB66]

With your serves, I can imagine the kind of coordination that is necessary. I have some serves that when I use them, I am scared to attack if the ball comes back on the table because of how heavy I made the serve. Makes me scared to use them in doubles as my teammate doesnt have the connection to the serve and may underestimate what is on the ball lol.

I tend to stick with BH serves when playing doubles, my BH serve is reasonable, not as deceptive but with a similar action I can put the 3 main spins on serves. I feel more comfortable, more accurate, which is important as you have a smaller target to hit. Also the accuracy helps hit the smaller targets within the service box.
Starting position for BH serve is usually to the right of the table, this ‘opens’ up the table for your partners field of view, they can see the whole table.
When I serve FH, starting position is usually central, I feel that I’m in the way and I am sort of rushed to get out of the way!!! I have to adjust my stance orientation to get a better angle for the diagonal serve, again something I’m not use to doing, so less comfortable. It’s really just a case of practicing my FH serves for doubles play, perhaps this is something I should take on board!!!

 

[LDM7]

I tend to stick with BH serves when playing doubles, my BH serve is reasonable, not as deceptive but with a similar action I can put the 3 main spins on serves. I feel more comfortable, more accurate, which is important as you have a smaller target to hit. Also the accuracy helps hit the smaller targets within the service box

true that, opportunity to practice BH serves, will apply nxt chance

 

[LDM7]

If you ever find an odd person out at the club, play with them on singles and you and der on doubles. I did this in training recently with a couple of friends - one is a coach, the other a relative beginner. So beginner played singles against me and the coach on doubles. That was fun, and I learned a hell of a lot about how to play doubles because we weren't much pressured by her shots, only by us having to take turns playing. And it was awesome for the beginner, because the handicap wasn't in points, it was this constraint that exposed our deficient movement and teamwork. Highly recommended exercise.

actually der and i played this "australian" format before and i found it annoying when i'm on the doubles side b/c we didn't follow the every other ball rule, and really enjoyed playing on the singles side b/c balls were coming back at a higher rate and i got to practice hitting spots, moving the ball around

additional habits in 2023:

* see the ball earlier (difficult & mentally tiring, however with practice & persistence, everything become easier)

* figure out the other's weakness and play to it

* daily shadowing (pay attention to contact point, follow through, bat angle, body balance, foot-work ...)

* open bat (one can generate just as much spin if not more with an open bat as closed)

* table proximity (during combat, i will move back a foot or two and not afraid to run the additional side-2-side distance b/c i will put in the work to be fit)

i can't wait to see dec 2023 b/c the best is yet to come 👍

 

[LDM7]

You don't remember all those early games where I pushed serve to you, and you attacked and won 90%+ of those points?

all i remember is my team won the earlier matches and as the games went on, i felt more exposed and inadequate

i tend to judge myself hard, monday night i did

i was really down on myself for popping up both of your dead'sh low spin serves, setting up emad

i felt bad

i need to work on return of serves (big time) read the spin then have the guts to return it instead of just pushing or bumping balls back, competence & confidence will come with seeing balls land on the other side

this is the new and improved version of LDM7 2.0

Let's do work Der!

 

[LDM7]

Tonight’s training session allowed me to appreciate setting ESZ (Effective Strike Zone) in a whole different way. While I realize it’s probably not realistic to think I can hit every ball in the middle of my ESZ, I can dream about moving to the ball better, maintaining a lower stance throughout and impact more balls in the ESZ. This guarantees a higher quality ball

It made me happy when der commented on some of my BH hits i.e. doing less of all the extra stuff, set elbow & arm position, pivot off funny bone elbow joint, elbow forward, add a bit of wrist (when remember 😊 not quite a habit yet) at the end

Here’s adding to my 2023 Habit List :

• After a wide FH, push off of right foot and hop leftward, ready for the next ball
• Bat speed, more violence (I am thinking being relaxed doesn’t hurt here … )
• When serving, upper arm hits the side of my body and elbow go forward
• On service return: move (L or R, even forward) to make impact at the center of ESZ
• Wait a bit longer on some of the FH half long balls

 

[Der_Echte]

Yes absolutely, LDM7's largest discovery of the year, the decade, and maybe the century is finding what is the strike zone and how to get balls to get to the center of it. Once that happens, it is pretty much like nothing else matters. The shot is going in.

Once a player can discover the strike zone and consistently impact the ball in the center of it, then the player can go for more of the shot and it opens up EVERYTHING.

We could go on and on and on about a lot of the other positive stuff from tonite, but the discovery of the strike zone is a gold mine that will help LDM7 for the rest of his life.

 

[Der_Echte]

all i remember is my team won the earlier matches and as the games went on, i felt more exposed and inadequate

i tend to judge myself hard, monday night i did

i was really down on myself for popping up both of your dead'sh low spin serves, setting up emad (for failure) (even though he would get to almost every impossible ball) (that cat has the best tactical footwork of ANYONE in the city by a country mile)

i felt bad

i need to work on return of serves (big time) read the spin then have the guts to return it instead of just pushing or bumping balls back, competence & confidence will come with seeing balls land on the other side

this is the new and improved version of LDM7 2.0

Let's do work Der!

LDM7,

Next time you in Church, ask Pastor Roman how I do him when he is on the other side. He absolutely HATES me serving. he loves it too as he is a dude who really relishes a challenge, but after all this time and reps with my serves, he still hates me there. I have too much possibility and variation sudden. All from the same motion and I can have evil after motions. I will not kill the 2300 crowd, but I will fend them off.

That is what higher level players do on serves in doubles vs lower players. it is part of the circle of life in doubles TT. Even Emad, who is clearly several levels a better player then Der_Echte, even he doesn't murder my serves, but he still finds a way to make Roman commit suicide on the return ball. (Hint, the return of serve CAN and IS just as deceptive and deadly as a serve) It is a science and an art. Emad is well versed in both. He is a former elite athlete.

The better you see and discern impact, the higher level you will get, as this is necessary and present in EVERY shot in TT.

EDIT: BOLD TEXT in QUOTE... Some believe one's best serve is the spinniest serve... but that is only table setting. The best serve I have is my no-spin serve or very light serve, because it looks and feels like the heavy underspin serve... until you hit it then it is a cookie jar moment.

 

[Der_Echte]

Yes absolutely, LDM7's largest discovery of the year, the decade, and maybe the century is finding what is the strike zone and how to get balls to get to the center of it. Once that happens, it is pretty much like nothing else matters. The shot is going in.

Once a player can discover the strike zone and consistently impact the ball in the center of it, then the player can go for more of the shot and it opens up EVERYTHING.

We could go on and on and on about a lot of the other positive stuff from tonite, but the discovery of the strike zone is a gold mine that will help LDM7 for the rest of his life.

I cannot articulate enough how PROPOUND tonite's LDM7's discovery of WHAT is Strike Zone and its importance was. LDM7 FELT and EXPERIENCED it and you had to be present there in his shoes and mind to even come close to comprehending the significance of it.

It was way more contrast than night and day when he could get the ball into the zone and get his strike on time in the middle of the strike zone... It was an almost indescribable feeling. TT has a lot of feel and subconscious function to it and LDM7 progressed in that tonite. it may not immediately affect his match play, but it is gunna set him up for some handsome advances in his level down the line.

 

[LDM7]

how PROPOUND tonite's LDM7's discovery of WHAT is Strike Zone and its importance

so it behooves me to try set my ESZ every ball

i think this ideal takes early perception of the ball (spin, depth, speed, which side ... difficult for me), racket preparation (incl bat angle) and the footwork to go towards ball path to set the ESZ

after another marathon session, my body knows laziness from muscle cramping, soreness & stiffness

definitely time for foam rolling and light stretching

LDM7 out

 

[LDM7]

EDIT: BOLD TEXT in QUOTE... Some believe one's best serve is the spinniest serve... but that is only table setting. The best serve I have is my no-spin serve or very light serve, because it looks and feels like the heavy underspin serve... until you hit it then it is a cookie jar moment.

man, i must have some pretty damn good serves then

b/c my best spiniest serves are low spin (at best) and most are none spin LOL

 

[LDM7]

To whom it may concern:

on multiple occasions Der comment my BH loop (as you always do, every ball 😠) ohhh, that thing had some side-spin to it

... to which i say my standard line "i promise you it's not intentional ... (YET)"

i am thinking now i would like to know (intentionally) how to hit a str8 BH loop and another with more side-spin to it ...

what are your thots?

LDM7

 

[LDM7]

also i am wondering if i were cementing a particular skill during training (e.g. waiting for the ball to come longer or drop mroe before looping that half-long ball) and can execute successfully 7 out of ten times

then i go to round robin (higher stress, more random & competitive environment) surely a reasonable expectation would be ... say 5 out of ten

suppose i don't do RR (or delay attendance) and keep training til' my confidence in recognizing half-long balls are so high that i can consistently land 9 out of ten (perhaps even 10 out of 10 once in awhile)

QUESTION:

could i or would i reasonably expect my RR performance be around 7 or 8 out of ten (certainly better than not delaying RR)?

BOTTOM LINE:

i have a list of 2023 habits i am perfecting (and it's pretty extensive)

i can feel the anxiousness in me just thinking about playing RR in january

i feel anxious ... not so much about my winning or losing records, rather i am nervous & scared about not being able to perform reasonably well (measurable improvement) in those skills der & i put so much time and efforts training

do i have performance anxiety?

how do i know when i am ready to compete with a reasonable expectation so i don't get so disappointed?

i am not confident i am ready for RR yet ... should i wait til my confidence during practice in most skills are higher or JUST DO IT?

what are your thots?

thank you,

LDM7

 

[pingpongpaddy]

also i am wondering if i were cementing a particular skill during training (e.g. waiting for the ball to come longer or drop mroe before looping that half-long ball and can execute successfully 7 out of ten times

I can't resist pointing out:

a half long ball by definition has a reasonable possibility of bouncing twice inside the table, and in consequence has a peak bounce that occurs well inside the table, and that peak height if its a decent serve should be not much more than 7 inches...
Then it seems that waiting for the ball to come longer in order to loop it is evidence of woolly thinking.

the ball may double bounce or be finger breakingly close to the edge, so the shot/opportuiity to look for should be from the inside the table toolbox of soft flips, pushes, and punches rather than looping

 

[Der_Echte]

To whom it may concern:

on multiple occasions Der comment my BH loop (as you always do, every ball 😠) ohhh, that thing had some side-spin to it

... to which i say my standard line "i promise you it's not intentional ... (YET)"

i am thinking now i would like to know (intentionally) how to hit a str8 BH loop and another with more side-spin to it ...

what are your thots?

LDM7

The "side" spin (some corkscrew spin) on the BH loop was when LDM7 got the ball a little bit to the inside part of the strike zone and got the bat a little on the outside, but with position and leverage... but did not slide the forearm to the right those few inches to align the bat for a straight loop... but got the bat a little to the outside instead of straight behind the ball..

He had good position, good timing, good control of the zone... but the ball got a little inside and he went for the shot on those ones. Nothing wrong with that. Position and getting the ball into the sweet spot of strike zone trumps everything. You have so many ways to hit the ball once that happens. You have the ability to "bend" the laws of physics when you can get position, leverage, timing/rhythm, and get the ball to come to the strike zone.