How to do a more realistic looking fake loop

[blahness]

So I came across this video, and the ball is reacting really strangely off Boll's racket, it's almost as if the topspin didn't have any topspin in it or at least is very weak.

There's other moments like this at 3:07.

5:12 appears to be the same movement but the loop was so spinny...

How does he make it looks so realistic like its heavy topspin but isn't?

 

[Choosikick]

Could this be due to the previous spin the ball received when serving?

 

[zeio]

Sidespin loop does that.

 

[dingyibvs]

Sidespin loop does that.

Yeah, looks like Boll just misjudged the amount of spidespin vs topspin.

 

[blahness]

I feel like it's not as simple as it being a sidespin loop. Waldner was still largely brushing the back of the ball (I know that can still produce quite a bit of sidespin but that should be accompanied by quite some topspin too, but the way the ball reacted appeared that it didn't have much spin at all - it reacted quite dead)

 

[blahness]

Could this be due to the previous spin the ball received when serving?

Boll did a short ish push flick which may have some mild underspin on it. But Waldner was still contacting the back of the ball with a seemingly normal topspin stroke, and yet the ball completely died on Boll's racket when he tried to block it.

 

[blahness]

Yeah, looks like Boll just misjudged the amount of spidespin vs topspin.

The ratio of sidespin to topspin seems to not fit the stroke pattern and trajectory tbh... what I was expecting to happen was something like 5:12 with this kind of contact. 1:46 looks like the same stroke as 5:12 but is with much lower amount of topspin generated. This is the mystery imo

 

[zeio]

For the one at 1:46, the amount of spin on the ball after it went into the net (the sizzling and constant rolling sideways across the net) shows it was a side-spin loop. Same for the one at 3:07. The ball should have bounced off the net at an angle if it were a no-spin loop.

The one at 5:12 was a very loaded topspin loop.

 

[blahness]

For the one at 1:46, the amount of spin on the ball after it went into the net (the sizzling and constant rolling sideways across the net) shows it was a side-spin loop. Same for the one at 3:07. The ball should have bounced off the net at an angle if it were a no-spin loop.

The one at 5:12 was a very loaded topspin loop.

But how does he make it disguise so much like a topspin loop from the looks of it? The stroke looks almost identical!

 

[zeio]

The million dollar question. To this day, there are still many questions and mysteries surrounding Athens 2004.

 

[blahness]

Is there anyone on the forum who can explain this sorcery?

 

[iammaru]

Hard to say because of low video quality, we need closeup slo-mo to analyze these stuff. But I guess it was the wrist. One had little wrist motion, the other one has strong flick from the wrist. It would make huge difference.

 

[dingyibvs]

But how does he make it disguise so much like a topspin loop from the looks of it? The stroke looks almost identical!

They're not identical at all. For the 3:07 stroke Waldner first took a step to his BH side, apparently preparing to step around, then realized the ball was to his wide FH and lunged to reach for it which results in a lot of hooking to the shot. For the 5:12 shot he did not take a step in the wrong direction first and it was just a normal topspin loop.

Just look at Waldner's position when he set both his feet and start moving toward the ball:

 

[blahness]

They're not identical at all. For the 3:07 stroke Waldner first took a step to his BH side, apparently preparing to step around, then realized the ball was to his wide FH and lunged to reach for it which results in a lot of hooking to the shot. For the 5:12 shot he did not take a step in the wrong direction first and it was just a normal topspin loop.

Just look at Waldner's position when he set both his feet and start moving toward the ball:
View attachment 28943
View attachment 28944

There's differences in the feet for sure, but the type of spin on the ball is determined by how the ball was brushed. If you look at for eg when ZJK or Ma Long hooks the ball the stroke and followthrough looks completely different to what Waldner did here.

So the weird thing here is that based on Waldner's stroke trajectory and how he brushed the ball it should just be a standard topspin with some sidespin which should be more like 5:12. But it appeared to be just sidespin without much topspin, that is really weird behaviour.

So based on the hints here, it appears that Waldner did a sidespin loop (without much topspin component), and then disguised the stroke trajectory and followthrough to make it look like a normal topspin loop.

I wanna learn how to do this because it would be extremely useful to learn for me too. I think it would drive opponents nuts trying to decipher it.

 

[Dr Evil]

Can't really see the contact with this video quality. Does look like Timo misjudged the top/sidespin ratio.

In general you can vary the amount of spin on loops without having to change the spin axis the same way you do it when serving. For example, loose wrist with a lot of whip on contact produces a lot of spin. Locked wrist produces much less spin.

 

[blahness]

Can't really see the contact with this video quality. Does look like Timo misjudged the top/sidespin ratio.

In general you can vary the amount of spin on loops without having to change the spin axis the same way you do it when serving. For example, loose wrist with a lot of whip on contact produces a lot of spin. Locked wrist produces much less spin.

I know how to vary the spin and amount of spin myself, but the problem is that it is obvious to the opponent. The way Waldner did it is a lot more subtle and effective imo.

 

[blahness]

I did a much more detailed slowmo analysis. Although it's a bit of potato quality cam, I think I understand how he is brushing the ball now.

Zeio and dingyibvs is correct - it is a sidespin loop but without a lot of topspin component

He basically did brush around the side of the ball but very subtly when the ball was in its falling phase (where the table would disguise some of the movement), but instead of continuing the hook movement on the followthrough like other hook loops I have seen, he used the normal topspin followthrough including the fake pronation and fake snap to the salute position. He did it so smoothly like a magician, I had to go super slowmo to see it. Ffs what a deceptive stroke! No wonder Timo Boll was completely fooled... the funny thing is that he started off with these nonsense, and then later switched to the real loop to throw Boll off completely.

I did some shadowing of this and I think I'm gonna train it a bit.