I wanna play with the big boys!

[hclnnkhg]

In any game you should be balancing at all levels not just the highest levels. This is to ensure a fun experience at all levels. Sure inverted is dominant at the highest levels where everyone has excellent spin reading and adjustment capabilities and very good footwork. But at the lower amateur levels, for eg a well coached junior with proper strokes should never be losing to some guy just standing at the table and pushblocking with some LP. It is extremely discouraging for some of the younger players which is why there's a dearth of young ppl in this sport compared to say badminton or tennis. I would bet if you took a poll of this forum, the majority would be old folks lol.

In tennis, intermediate players (NTRP ~3.5) often lose to what they called "pushers" or "junk ballers" - players who slices a lot, do drop shots, rarely plays a fast groundstroke. They don't have the equivalent of long pimples, but they still get a lot of hate. The long pimple is just a scapegoat. Also, a truly well coached junior will destroy most pushblockers, otherwise they should not be considered well coached.

The ITTF has been restricting pips and changing rules such that pips are less effective since the 90s. If pips is truly the reason why TT doesn't have that many young players than other sports, then there should be an increase of young players already. BTW do you have any evidences with numbers to support your claim about popularity of table tennis and other sports with young players? If not then we should not discuss too much about it, we will only be making up statements based on stereotypes we have in our heads.

A game is ultimately about fun and LPs just make the entire experience unpleasant. I arguably do better against LP than other inverted players (for eg when I'm 50-50 with this combination LP training partner, he often destroys some high level double inverted players that are able to destroy me in return). Still I would much rather lose against double inverted where I know I've been outplayed bad in certain areas, than win an ugly game against a LP player lol.

Fun is subjective. If you prefer blasting topspins against each other, find someone that plays like that. Or try tennis. Oh wait, there are many pushers, junk ballers and moonballers that don't play tennis "properly". Maybe badminton. Wait, what are all these clears, net shots and dropshots? Shouldn't everyone smashes every shot as hard as they can?

 

[blahness]

In tennis, intermediate players (NTRP ~3.5) often lose to what they called "pushers" or "junk ballers" - players who slices a lot, do drop shots, rarely plays a fast groundstroke. They don't have the equivalent of long pimples, but they still get a lot of hate. The long pimple is just a scapegoat. Also, a truly well coached junior will destroy most pushblockers, otherwise they should not be considered well coached.

The ITTF has been restricting pips and changing rules such that pips are less effective since the 90s. If pips is truly the reason why TT doesn't have that many young players than other sports, then there should be an increase of young players already. BTW do you have any evidences with numbers to support your claim about popularity of table tennis and other sports with young players? If not then we should not discuss too much about it, we will only be making up statements based on stereotypes we have in our heads.

Fun is subjective. If you prefer blasting topspins against each other, find someone that plays like that. Or try tennis. Oh wait, there are many pushers, junk ballers and moonballers that don't play tennis "properly". Maybe badminton. Wait, what are all these clears, net shots and dropshots? Shouldn't everyone smashes every shot as hard as they can?

In tennis even the pushers or junk ballers are using similar equipment, it is not using equipment as a crutch. And all of these junk players actually have to move well in order to compete.

Same with badminton - clears, net shots and dropshots are played with the same equipment and are in fact essential for a complete game, you can see them in abundance at the highest levels too (for eg Momota dominated men's badminton for a while with these shots without smashing much).

It is only in table tennis where you have so many dizzying racket surface combinations that you have to get used to, otherwise you'll just lose due to unfamiliarity. There are no such equivalent to "long pips" in other racket sports where there is such a large dependence on racket surface in general play.

Just go to any table tennis hall or club and you'll see that the % of old players is getting larger. I see plenty of young ppl all the time at tennis or badminton courts, heck even volleyball and basketball are full of young ppl. From what my friends tell me, this is happening even in China of all countries.

 

[blahness]

Long pips create deadvalls, otherwise most players would not use inverted on the other side. They can produce other spins largely in response to incoming spin but their primary effect is to add or subtract slightly from the incoming spin. They don't generate spin like inverted does, they produce dead balls.

Yes, what I meant is the add or subtracting from incoming spin as the primary method of spin variation in long pips. It is still spin variation, and not just a dead ball. If all they produced was dead balls they would be really easy to play against.

 

[piligrim]

In tennis even the pushers or junk ballers are using similar equipment, it is not using equipment as a crutch. And all of these junk players actually have to move well in order to compete.

Same with badminton - clears, net shots and dropshots are played with the same equipment and are in fact essential for a complete game, you can see them in abundance at the highest levels too (for eg Momota dominated men's badminton for a while with these shots without smashing much).

It is only in table tennis where you have so many dizzying racket surface combinations that you have to get used to, otherwise you'll just lose due to unfamiliarity. There are no such equivalent to "long pips" in other racket sports where there is such a large dependence on racket surface in general play.

You can play hardbat or sandpaper. They use same equipment

 

[blahness]

You can play hardbat or sandpaper. They use same equipment

Lol might as well play badminton if I wanted to play a spinless sport. Spin is the cool defining factor in table tennis.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes, what I meant is the add or subtracting from incoming spin as the primary method of spin variation in long pips. It is still spin variation, and not just a dead ball. If all they produced was dead balls they would be really easy to play against.

That is what it mesns to produce a dead ball. Don't generate spin of your own, mostly reflect the incoming spin and usually, pips you can hit with kill the spin on the ball. So it largely produces a dead ball. Sure you can chop with long pips but you aren't going to get much spin unlike doing the same stroke with inverted. But if you are complaining that your spin is coming back at you , you could simply avoid it by playing dead balls. But if your opponent knows how to hit the dead ball, then you look really bad.

And no, dead balls are not easy to play against for most people. If they were you and most people like you would be beating pips consistently. In fact, I have a relatively good record against dead ball players because I find them easier to play against even when some strong players don't. Flat hits with pips produce dead balls.

 

[ejprinz]

OK so I have studied the long pips for a couple of months now and interestingly lots of points in the previous responses can be discussed:

* No short pips / long pips players in top table tennis: Kyoka Idesawa just beat He Zhuojia and Qian Tianyi. She plays short pips / long pips.

* Can't do Chiquita with long pips on the b/h: Need to twiddle. Yes this adds 2x the stroke practice but looking at Ni Xia Lian it can be done at the age of 60. I am finding that my b/h topspin is more dangerous now (after twiddling) since I have the H3 Neo on the spinny side.

* Long pips is spin insensitive: Not quite. Watch this video by Seth Pech, one of the best intros to Long Pips.

* Long pips is easy: Watch this video by Sebastian Sauer et al. This is not the traditional long pips defense. Also watch this playlist by "TT-Defender" about long pips at the table.

* Serves: If I understand correctly, my job with LP b/h is to get spin into the ball, so I do sidespin with top or bottom serve, and then keep handing the spin back with the more insensitive LP or pretend a b/h top spin with the pips (like Ni Xia Lian). To beat me, the worst which can happen is an inverted player who can keep the spin away from the ball. So, dead serve into my LP, then attack, or choose what they want to get back and give me the opposite. Of course I am trying to respond to that too.

* Hard bat: These are short pips with no sponge, not long pips. It is a completely different way to play and requires more training unless this is your std. racket.

* So I actually think LP is fun to play and more like chess, I need to compensate for my lower power with more thinking.

 

[blahness]

That is what it mesns to produce a dead ball. Don't generate spin of your own, mostly reflect the incoming spin and usually, pips you can hit with kill the spin on the ball. So it largely produces a dead ball. Sure you can chop with long pips but you aren't going to get much spin unlike doing the same stroke with inverted. But if you are complaining that your spin is coming back at you , you could simply avoid it by playing dead balls. But if your opponent knows how to hit the dead ball, then you look really bad.

And no, dead balls are not easy to play against for most people. If they were you and most people like you would be beating pips consistently. In fact, I have a relatively good record against dead ball players because I find them easier to play against even when some strong players don't. Flat hits with pips produce dead balls.

Yes, if they have an SP or inverted side that they can attack well with, suddenly giving them dead balls is not so safe anymore.... you're talking about the basic pushblocker kinda LP style which is not so hard to deal with imo. Also LP is perfectly capable of adding quite some spin onto an incoming deadball especially if it has pace. It takes some skills but it is possible, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to serve medium underspin with the pips.

My focus is not that I'm personally losing to LP players (tbh I generally do much better against them than I do against fellow quality two wing loopers), but its just that they make the game unfun for many inverted players. I have encountered a few players who left the sport largely because of getting disgusted by some of these pips players.

 

[blahness]

OK so I have studied the long pips for a couple of months now and interestingly lots of points in the previous responses can be discussed:

* No short pips / long pips players in top table tennis: Kyoka Idesawa just beat He Zhuojia and Qian Tianyi. She plays short pips / long pips.

* Can't do Chiquita with long pips on the b/h: Need to twiddle. Yes this adds 2x the stroke practice but looking at Ni Xia Lian it can be done at the age of 60. I am finding that my b/h topspin is more dangerous now (after twiddling) since I have the H3 Neo on the spinny side.

* Long pips is spin insensitive: Not quite. Watch this video by Seth Pech, one of the best intros to Long Pips.

* Long pips is easy: Watch this video by Sebastian Sauer et al. This is not the traditional long pips defense. Also watch this playlist by "TT-Defender" about long pips at the table.

* Serves: If I understand correctly, my job with LP b/h is to get spin into the ball, so I do sidespin with top or bottom serve, and then keep handing the spin back with the more insensitive LP or pretend a b/h top spin with the pips (like Ni Xia Lian). To beat me, the worst which can happen is an inverted player who can keep the spin away from the ball. So, dead serve into my LP, then attack, or choose what they want to get back and give me the opposite. Of course I am trying to respond to that too.

* Hard bat: These are short pips with no sponge, not long pips. It is a completely different way to play and requires more training unless this is your std. racket.

* So I actually think LP is fun to play and more like chess, I need to compensate for my lower power with more thinking.

He Zhuojia is also a LP player.

Not saying that LPs are completely insensitive to spin but they are vastly less sensitive to spin compared to inverted.

You can even do the chiquita with LP, imo it can be one of the most disturbing LP strokes during receive.

Not saying that LP doesn't take skills - it does, it just has certain advantages in some areas which feels unfair or unfun to play against. Of course there's plenty of disadvantages of LP too which compensates for those advantages.

 

[blahness]

For those who don't think LP is a huge advantage in amateur circles (and even beyond).

Chen Weixing losing to a long pips amateur:

He Zhi Wen losing to a long pips amateur:

He Zhi Wen losing to an amateur xD

g7cffAd0Aho]Found it too funny not to share Edited by blahness 2021-07-04 20:03:39

mytabletennis.net

Mind you that regular amateurs without these deceptive long pips would stand 0 chances against these seasoned pros who have tens and thousands of hours of training, but with the deceptive power of long pips suddenly they are winning. Its also the same Chen Weixing who beat Dan 11-4 with Dan having almost no chance at all...

Yes they may win using the opponent's unfamiliarity, but imo it is just ugly and unfair TT in general. In no other sport, does a rank amateur win against a pro just due to some weird equipment.
 

 

[IB66]

Lol might as well play badminton if I wanted to play a spinless sport. Spin is the cool defining factor in table tennis.

Badminton is not a spin less sport, sure, its not used in the same way, Cut smashes and drop shots, net shots rolls make the shuttle wobble and spin!! But yeah, generally badminton is spin less.

 

[piligrim]

* So I actually think LP is fun to play and more like chess, I need to compensate for my lower power with more thinking.

Does my feeling too. Chess and Kung Fu

 

[Ghostzen]

For those who don't think LP is a huge advantage in amateur circles (and even beyond).

Chen Weixing losing to a long pips amateur:

He Zhi Wen losing to a long pips amateur:

He Zhi Wen losing to an amateur xD

g7cffAd0Aho]Found it too funny not to share Edited by blahness 2021-07-04 20:03:39

mytabletennis.net

Mind you that regular amateurs without these deceptive long pips would stand 0 chances against these seasoned pros who have tens and thousands of hours of training, but with the deceptive power of long pips suddenly they are winning. Its also the same Chen Weixing who beat Dan 11-4 with Dan having almost no chance at all...

Yes they may win using the opponent's unfamiliarity, but imo it is just ugly and unfair TT in general. In no other sport, does a rank amateur win against a pro just due to some weird equipment.
 

Off topic of level up to play the 1500's a bit

Is the first guy really an amateur like everyone here? I honestly would say no sorry. Just because of the forehand and stroke level. It's obvious hopefully..... I think they will have played at a high level at some stage to be playing against these type of players.. both pips to pips which is also interesting but I bet he causes a ton of problems for normal inverted players.

I bet he has has some amazing wins as well with a rocket forehand like that. That forehand is pretty close to if not worldclass. He must be known is China really well on the playing circuit ..no?

The first guys forehand is very special and I'm sure i've seen a video of him playing somewhere before years back?. It's such a strange style I'm sure I've seen it before...

LP aren't an advantage as is... I would never trivialize the skill and hours to work and master that skill in a match are. Backed up by the weapons to put the point away...... as is the ability to play against LP at the level everyone plays at. Like anything try and put your strongest weapon against their weakest. If it's hard to work out keep training until it sinks in or get some coaching/help to put together a solid plan.


How many players have any of us played with firepower like that in a real match?.


Good videos mind.

 

[NextLevel]

For those who don't think LP is a huge advantage in amateur circles (and even beyond).

Chen Weixing losing to a long pips amateur:

He Zhi Wen losing to a long pips amateur:

He Zhi Wen losing to an amateur xD

g7cffAd0Aho]Found it too funny not to share Edited by blahness 2021-07-04 20:03:39

mytabletennis.net

Mind you that regular amateurs without these deceptive long pips would stand 0 chances against these seasoned pros who have tens and thousands of hours of training, but with the deceptive power of long pips suddenly they are winning. Its also the same Chen Weixing who beat Dan 11-4 with Dan having almost no chance at all...

Yes they may win using the opponent's unfamiliarity, but imo it is just ugly and unfair TT in general. In no other sport, does a rank amateur win against a pro just due to some weird equipment.
 

This is becoming like ERT calling Idesawa an amateur - immediately we don't know someone's TT background or hours of play, we call them an "amateur" or a "nobody". Of course, despite He Zhuoja being a national team member, we are completely sure that these guys are mainly doing what they do because they use pips! I have seen Richard DeWitt give Damien Provost fits and there is video of DeWitt beating Provost in a Dirty Dozen best of three.

There are regular "amateurs" who have beaten players like Dima, depending on how you define regular "amateur". It is much more important to describe the player's background and achievements as well as the stakes in the match (believe it or not, pros are human beings and they also don't play their best games when there are no stakes, or when there are no coaches to help them stay calm or use strategy) rather than focus on the amateur status. One of the things Segun Toriola always said was that in any one match, anyone can beat anyone, and you need to believe it to be a (professional) table tennis player.

 

[NextLevel]

Wang Xi losing to a Nigerian amateur .

 

[TensorBackhand]

For those who don't think LP is a huge advantage in amateur circles (and even beyond).

Chen Weixing losing to a long pips amateur:

He Zhi Wen losing to a long pips amateur:

He Zhi Wen losing to an amateur xD

g7cffAd0Aho]Found it too funny not to share Edited by blahness 2021-07-04 20:03:39

mytabletennis.net

Mind you that regular amateurs without these deceptive long pips would stand 0 chances against these seasoned pros who have tens and thousands of hours of training, but with the deceptive power of long pips suddenly they are winning. Its also the same Chen Weixing who beat Dan 11-4 with Dan having almost no chance at all...

Yes they may win using the opponent's unfamiliarity, but imo it is just ugly and unfair TT in general. In no other sport, does a rank amateur win against a pro just due to some weird equipment.
 

No question that LP is an advantage at the amateur level. Obviously people who haven't practiced against LP are going to be untrained and unprepared, by definition. Those who say LP is not an advantage at the amateur level are just being snobby.

At the higher level, say 2200 and above, LP starts to lose its benefit at those advanced players are more practiced and trained.

Also, never question ERT's expertise! Jk

 

[NextLevel]

No question that LP is an advantage at the amateur level. Obviously people who haven't practiced against LP are going to be untrained and unprepared, by definition. Those who say LP is not an advantage at the amateur level are just being snobby.

At the higher level, say 2200 and above, LP starts to lose its benefit at those advanced players are more practiced and trained.

Also, never question ERT's expertise! Jk

Wait, you mean those 2600+ players supposedly struggling with LP are not making blahness's points? I thought the limit was 2200.... So you mean Chen Weixing and He Zhiwen are not 2200+ players? And Chen doesn't use LP himself?

More seriously, everyone struggles with things they haven't practiced against. As we have pointed out, this is true for leftiness, true for backspin, true for heavy topspin, true for short pips, and true for long pips etc. But once you train against it, the player has to do more than just the basics to start winning points. Or you may never develop the ability. Context always matters.

But for some reason, people want to wish away the struggles they do not enjoy rather than accept and develop solutions for them. I get it, feel free to make up alternate universes where playing at a high level is a function of the equipment and doesn't require a high skill level no matter what equipment one uses.

 

[Dr Evil]

Take a pair of identical twin 62 year old smooth rubber 1300 players. They play the same amount every week, same club, same partners, equally motivated to improve, etc. We switch one of them to long pips. Who gets to 1500+ first?

I think the heavy favorite is the long pips guy, even though he'd probably get worse before he gets better. Fewer unforced errors on serve receive being the decisive factor (as usual in tt).

 

[SleepyMaster]

Pips can be really annoying, but they definitely need skill to master. And if you really skilled with them ( with twiddling, heavy chops and other tricks ) - you will be the thought one of a challenge for many players. On the other side, there are players that just putting on, some kind of a pips, just for gaining more wins, but they are not really dangerous one, mostly not even trained properly with pips - they are pretty easily beatable, you just need to play simple «abc vs pips game», and have some practice in it. So it’s a matter of skill more, than just an equipment thing.

Also i know a lot of guys that have using both: inverted for some time, and backhand LP for others; and with pips they are able to win better players, they are tend more to lose when inverted, but still they using both just for fun. And they enjoying it.

Also agreed, that there are more older players in table tennis halls (and many of them with pips hehe), but I don’t think that pips are the reason to this. TT is just not considering as cool, as other “big sports” are among youngsters. But of course there are exceptions from this, usually it’s a kids of a parents that are doing TT for a while, or a kids of a coaches.

 

[blahness]

Pips can be really annoying, but they definitely need skill to master. And if you really skilled with them ( with twiddling, heavy chops and other tricks ) - you will be the thought one of a challenge for many players. On the other side, there are players that just putting on, some kind of a pips, just for gaining more wins, but they are not really dangerous one, mostly not even trained properly with pips - they are pretty easily beatable, you just need to play simple «abc vs pips game», and have some practice in it. So it’s a matter of skill more, than just an equipment thing.

Also i know a lot of guys that have using both: inverted for some time, and backhand LP for others; and with pips they are able to win better players, they are tend more to lose when inverted, but still they using both just for fun. And they enjoying it.

Also agreed, that there are more older players in table tennis halls (and many of them with pips hehe), but I don’t think that pips are the reason to this. TT is just not considering as cool, as other “big sports” are among youngsters. But of course there are exceptions from this, usually it’s a kids of a parents that are doing TT for a while, or a kids of a coaches.

Of course pips are making the sport uncool, you will never see a long pips pushblocker player achieve the heights of Pongfinity in terms of popularity for eg... they are hated in TT circles for a good reason.

Imagine some beginners taking up table tennis due to Pongfinity, and then losing bad to some LP guy who doesn't move at the table at the club lmao...