is it time to upgrade?

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Have have been playing table tennis competitively for 2 years for about 3-6 hours a week. In general i been playing table tennis for four years. I have developed a good service, good loop and all the basics I would say. Is it time to upgrade to a carbon blade. For example, timo boll alc or viscaria.
 
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Have have been playing table tennis competitively for 2 years for about 3-6 hours a week. In general i been playing table tennis for four years. I have developed a good service, good loop and all the basics I would say. Is it time to upgrade to a carbon blade. For example, timo boll alc or viscaria.

May i ask what equipment you are using at the moment? It is best to switch when you know you have mastered your techniques well. If you haven't stick to a all wood blade to develop more. Wood blades are slower, so they can help you develop. If you feel like you are in good, shape, i say go for the carbon blade.
 
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If you are using a Walmart Special, then YES is the answer. However, if you are at an above average level playing with that bat, maybe you ought to keep playing with that setup. :)

My outfit sells a lot of great stuff at that price range, but like the saying goes, there are many fish in the sea, so many suitable combinations out there that it is difficult to quantify it all. Even though I am a distributor for just a main brand and a few other minor ones, you will see me praise other company's products and other vendors (like colestt.com for example). I want to be know as promoting and growing table tennis, not fighting for a slice of an already small current market.

I like the Nexy Composite blades a LOT (Think Kanaph and Calix II) but I play with an all-wood blade in my sig. So many all wood blades that will allow you to play a great game out there, just as many in number.

it is a personal choice. I am not going to get on the PUNDIT SOAPBOX and say a composite blade is bad for you (some obvious ones (Think of the OFF+++ speed class ones) are if you like to feel the ball and loop) let it to your own judgment.
 
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Okay. So Der_Echte won't get on what he calls the pundit soapbox. That's okay. I won't talk about specific brands but I will get on whatever it is that Der is calling the pundit soap box.

I'll digress in a moment. But, you should know, it is worth letting us know a few things about your play.

It says you are from USA. Is that right? Do you get coaching? Or do you just play on your own with friends? Do you have any idea what level you are?

What is the setup you are using? What blade? What rubbers?

Likely the best racket for your continued development is an all wood, 5 ply blade with good feel and somewhere in the All+ to Off- speed range. With that you could use any kind of rubbers you want.

If you are at an Elite or Semi-Pro level, then it is probably time for choosing whatever racket you'd want to try. But I am guessing you are not at that level. So, most likely you should be using what I already described.

That is the kind of blade that will help you get better the fastest until you are close to being at that Elite level.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
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Here is more info, from a different thread that is on this same subject:

Okay, so, let's see if I can do this justice.

One of the biggest issues for a player under a certain level, I said 1800 but in some ways it is 2200, is spin and ball feel. There is a certain point at which a player's touch feel and technique solidifies and these become issues of the past. But, for a developing player

1) Touch
2) Feel
3) Spin

Are 3 parts of one issue that hold the player below a certain level.

By about 1800, some players will have developed decent touch, feel and spin. But, not really always. And most players who are 2000-2100 have pretty decent technique but their technique can be broken down by a better player or by a weird player who presents complicated problems to that player. By around 2200-2300, usually, a players technique has solidified so that, even if an opponent is better or find some way to break the player's GAME down, their technique doesn't break down even though there game does.

At that level you can use any kind of equipment you want and continue to improve.

Somewhere between 1800-2200, many players will have good enough touch, feel and spin to get away with using carbon. But it really depends on the alpha and omega of how we spin the ball: touch and feel.

So, what am I saying here? Most developing players under a certain level need to REALLY work on learning how to generate more spin. Developing better touch is essential to getting better spin. Feeling the ball better is essential to developing better touch. And having a blade that automatically allows you to grab the ball better and have the ball stay on the rubber better (dwell time) are essential to learning how to spin the ball better.

Now you can learn all this stuff with a blade like, say, a Viscaria. But it is harder to and it will take longer to. So, if you want a blade that will help you improve your stroke, your touch, your feel, your ability to hold the ball on the blade face and rubber longer to get more spin, then you probably want a 5 ply, all wood, blade with some decent flex, good dwell time and the right vibrations so that while the ball is on the blade face, it is more easy to feel.

What carbon usually does is, it makes a blade harder under the top ply, lighter--because carbon weighs less than wood--faster, stiffer and it dampens vibrations so you feel the ball less.

10 years ago 8 of 10 players in the top 10 used all wood blades. These days, 8 of 10 players in the top ten use some form of combination composite blade that has Carbon and Arylate or Zylon. The technology has gotten good enough that, at that level, the pros of carbon outweigh the cons. But it is worth understanding that 1 generation ago, most top pros used all wood blades.

The extra flex and dwell time added to the extra ability to feel the ball really help you learn how to hold the ball on the blade face for longer much more quickly. The feel and the ability to feel when your contact is good and when IT IS NOT GOOD, are a huge value. Because part of how a wood blade helps your technique improve is on a sub-cortical level (that means you aren't even conscious of the slight changes your nervous system makes based on the feedback from the blade). Good contact feels really good and your nervous system starts figuring out the accidents you make that give you better contact and dwell time. Bad contact feels bad and your nervous system figures out what not to do because we don't want that bad feeling from spinning the ball.

With a carbon blade, your good contact feels good and SO DOES YOUR MISHITS. And they both feel pretty close to the same. A higher level player has good enough contact for this to no longer be an issue for them. But for most players under around 1800-2000 depending on the player, the technique is not developed enough for this not to get in the way of learning to get more spin more efficiently.

So an all wood, 5 ply, All+ to Off-, flexy blade with good dwell time and good feel, will actually help your nervous system figure out what better contact is without you even realizing it is happening!!!!!!! Totally worth it.

The next part is also simple. With a carbon blade, they are usually faster and too fast for developing good strokes so a lower level player will cut down their stroke and compromise the completeness and followthrough of the stroke for the sake of keeping the ball on the table. So the faster blade that does more of the work and makes you need to cut down your stroke, because it does too much of the work for you can help you cement crappy strokes into muscle memory. And once that happens, those habits which have been wired into your nervous system are hard to change.

A slower blade makes you do more of the work. Helps your body learn how to add the hips and the weight transfer so you get enough power and ensures you have a complete stroke because a stroke without a good followthrough will end up giving you a slow shot that is easy for your opponent to handle. So the slow blade forces the bigger aspects of a good stroke to be learned also.

You could think about it like a batter in baseball in the on-deck circle: he takes his bat, puts a doughnut on it (a weight that makes it heavier) so that when he is at bat and swinging for real his bat feels lighter and he can swing with more power. Till you are about 2000-2200, you want to have to work harder for your strokes. And when you are that level, you will still swing harder with the faster blade because your technique, your touch, your feel, your spin and your body mechanics will be enough better that those will all be in place and done correctly regardless of what blade you use.

Hope that fills in some more of the blanks on why you don't want carbon until your technique is VERY SOLID.

Now, I have a few fast blades and I have a few composite blades. Once in a while it is fun to pull one out and blast away at the ball. So, I think that is okay.

Also, if you play for fun and don't care about getting better, then you just get whatever blade makes you happy and don't worry about it.

But if you want a blade that will help you improve your technique, and you are not a semi-pro level player (an elite player) than 5 plies, all wood, not too fast. And a wood like Limba (soft) for the top ply. Or a slow Hinoki blade if you could find that. Over time the rewards will be evident.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
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Here is part of the comment I made that followed the one above:

By the way Mark, based on a few things you've said in a few posts, a new setup might not be a bad idea.

These blades would be good for you (in no particular order):

1) Stiga Allround Evolution
2) Yasaka Sweden Extra
3) Tibhar Stratus Power Wood

Those are the inexpensive versions. Next are the expensive versions:

1) Nittaku Violin
2) Nttaku Acoustic
3) OSP Virtuoso Off-

The interesting thing is, the more expensive blades don't necessarily play much better than the less expensive ones. But they might be better crafted and more solid, so, less delicate. I know that Stiga blade is pretty delicate and my OSP V+ is a tank. I have hit the corner of the table with it and thought, "oh no, I'm gonna have to fix the damage," and there wasn't any!!! My V Off- is slightly less indestructible but still, totally solid.

A Tibhar Kim Jung Hoon blade, like the one that Der_Echte is using, is 7 plies but it would be really good for most players in this category as well even though it is a little faster and would be categorized as Off in speed. So that blade might be a nice step up while still keeping the flex, feel, control and spin of an all wood blade while having some of the speed of a composite blade.
 
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Haha, Deep Space and Carl do not sleep on Chuck Norris' watch.

I like my blades to have an "edge" and next time I meet Carl, I will do the "Beast Mod" on his Clipper as promised, or whatever hollow handled blade he brings to the fight that day. That is a mod to add more weight low to improve whipping action and impact feel. I'm not pulling that one outtta my azz, the improvement in balance, ability to "whip" the bat, and feel are improved.

The KJH blade and the OSP Virtuoso + ( I know the feel of that great blade, Carl let me test it and I almost couldn't miss vs PP Holic) they both have special low and high gears, a very important feature for close play and banging away while keeping a good feel.

I believe there are also suitable Composite blades around that will FACILITATE a growing player's development, but there are likely a few more all wood candidates out there. I am not totally on the pundits' side on this matter, but their methods are tried and true.

Carl did not really give a hardcore pundit's political speech there, he simply laid down some sensible principles to be followed.
 
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Hi Carl,

Thank you for the excellent information. What do you think about the rubbers? IMO, TBS paired with H3 might provide better control than SPW paired with tensors do. Also, there are some carbon blades that are not fast, e.g., Waldner Senso Carbon & Ma Lin Carbon. Do you think they are good choices for developing players under USATT 1800?
 
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Hard to say. A video of you playing is the best way to tell your level. I've coach new players for 3 years about 4-6 hours a week as well. On average after 2 years, only 1 out of 5 can consider getting composite blades but i would recommend them getting a 7ply wood instead as they are using 5 plys now. The difference obviously lies with inherent talent and drive to be better. Just for reference I played 4 years with 5 ply wood, 3 with 7 ply before getting composite blades. My blades were selected by my coach who was a national player at the time. Not famous world stage thou, i dont think she played any world events (our countries TT level is quite low)
 
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Hi Carl,

Thank you for the excellent information. What do you think about the rubbers? IMO, TBS paired with H3 might provide better control than SPW paired with tensors do. Also, there are some carbon blades that are not fast, e.g., Waldner Senso Carbon & Ma Lin Carbon. Do you think they are good choices for developing players under USATT 1800?

Trouble with TBS is that the carbon makes it harder to feel the ball. It also makes bad contact feel better than it should so you can mishit the ball and think you made good contact. Then you are making bad contact and you have no idea because it all feels like good contact. TBS has better feel than a lot of carbon blades. But nowhere near as good as it should for a developing player.

The speed isn't the whole problem with carbon. The biggest issue is the dampening of vibration that makes it harder to feel minute differences in contact.

You can learn with H3 but I don't think it is what is best for most. I do think H3 has great control and if you are flat hitting, not brushing, (exactly what H3 is not good for) you can go on doing that for an extremely long time without realizing you are not using the technique you would want to learn with that rubber. And the refined brushing contact of higher level play with H3 is pretty great. But not quite so easy to learn without good coaching. The other thing about H3 is that the hardness and denseness of the sponge makes it hard for a beginner to use. Usually harder sponge takes a higher degree of technique to use properly. So, you could use it and not realize you are not using it properly. But for a lower level player, the skill to brush as precisely for looping is harder. And hard sponge like that makes it harder TO FEEL THE BALL as well.

With someone with talent and a coach, it could go well with that setup.

None of this is hard and fast, but for a developing player, a semi-soft sponge so you can feel the ball well and learn to brush and at the same time learn to get the ball to sink into the sponge so the topsheet grabs more fully is more useful for learning advanced techniques as a more basic level player would be optimal.

To recap: cabon's tendency to dampen feeling makes it so, even slower blades with carbon aren't what I would recommend.

H3's hard sponge which on the whole has a lot of control still would not be a great choice for learning because the hardness of the sponge makes it harder to feel what you are doing and the level of precision for GOOD TECHNIQUE with H3 requires a high level of play before this rubber can really be beneficial to your game. Starting to use H3 at say, 1500-1600 would be okay. Many get away with using it much earlier. But they don't necessarily learn to make high level contact with hard sponge till much later in their development as a player.
 
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My current set up is primorac with xiom vega pro. After reading the comments I feel i should just just use my current setup for maybe 2-3 more years before upgrading. I had a coach before, I currently don't.

This is a great setup. You should be able to use that until you are 2000+ if you wanted to. But, if you ever felt like upgrading your rubbers, you could.
 
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Hard to say. A video of you playing is the best way to tell your level. I've coach new players for 3 years about 4-6 hours a week as well. On average after 2 years, only 1 out of 5 can consider getting composite blades but i would recommend them getting a 7ply wood instead as they are using 5 plys now. The difference obviously lies with inherent talent and drive to be better. Just for reference I played 4 years with 5 ply wood, 3 with 7 ply before getting composite blades. My blades were selected by my coach who was a national player at the time. Not famous world stage thou, i dont think she played any world events (our countries TT level is quite low)

Do you know this guy?

 
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This is a great setup. You should be able to use that until you are 2000+ if you wanted to. But, if you ever felt like upgrading your rubbers, you could.

By the way, I am quite likely down grading again back to a 5 ply all wood (SPW). I thought my EJing days were over but at this point, I just need to play with something that doesn't break my shoulder but allows me to get great spin.
 
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Maybe, may be not. He is a former Malaysian national champ if his bio is correct.

OIC. txs for the info. To be honest. I only really keep up with the world stage players. Even the recent malaysian team in WTTC 2016 was so cringe worthy that i gave up watching them halfway and only watch the quarterfinals.
 
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