Is ma long the GOAT ?

[zeio]

https://www.olympicchannel.com/en/s...ble-tennis-world-championships-injury-return/

 

[RidTheKid]

Pretty difficult for Ma Long to take out himself.

Gold content. Folks in China always talk about that when comparing the weight of titles. The gold content of the last 3 WTTC titles is among the lowest in recent history.

ML took out FB to win the title in 2015, FZD in 2017, and Falck in 2019. Ahem...

ZJK is the last one to take the title from the defender(WH) and former World Champ(WLQ) in 2011.

Before that, WH took it from then defender WLQ in 2009.

Schlager took out then defender WLQ and former World Champ KLH in 2003.

WLQ took out former World Champs Persson and KLH in 2001.

LGL took out former World Champs Gatien and Persson in 1999.

 

[usualsuspect]

I find all this talk about gold content and weak competition offensive, not only to ML but to all professional tt players.
IMHO, Japanese, Korean, European (like Pitchford & Pucar), and American players (like Kanak Jha & Adriana Diaz) have all seen incredible growth in recent years. In addition, many new talents are jumping into international scene, like Lin Yun-Ju of Taiwan and An Jaehyun of Korea. Many aforementioned players have either beaten or greatly challenged CNT elites.

If you want to argue that ML isn't the GOAT for you, that's ok. This is meant to be a subjective topic. But please don't insult the professional tt community while doing this.

 

[NextLevel]

I find all this talk about gold content and weak competition offensive, not only to ML but to all professional tt players.
IMHO, Japanese, Korean, European (like Pitchford & Pucar), and American players (like Kanak Jha & Adriana Diaz) have all seen incredible growth in recent years. In addition, many new talents are jumping into international scene, like Lin Yun-Ju of Taiwan and An Jaehyun of Korea. Many aforementioned players have either beaten or greatly challenged CNT elites.

If you want to argue that ML isn't the GOAT for you, that's ok. This is meant to be a subjective topic. But please don't insult the professional tt community while doing this.

I am not sure why you find it offensive. One of the discussions that surrounds the greatness of a player is the quality of the competition he faced. Look at tennis for example. The way you know players are great is that they are consistently performing well in multiple events. Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray were all great players because they were all consistently performing well across multiple events. On the hand, Serena was one great player, but she almost never faced another great player across many events as no one consistently challenged her. Basically, in tennis, if Federer, Djokovic and Nadal did not exist, it would obviously be Murray winning most of the titles.

The point here is that Wang Hao and Zhang Jike were the last great players that Ma Long regularly competed against in a similar generation. Xu Xin is up there, but he has balance issues. Fan Zhendong is from the next generation. Ma Long has definitely faced less competition in his period of dominance but I am not sure how that can or should be held against him. I mean, nobody holds it against Federer that he won most of his titles when Andy Roddick was the second best player in the world. And you can't blame Ma Long that Zhang Jike didn't remain healthy. Almost like blaming Waldner for longevity.

You might find it offensive, but it is legitimate criticism. And if any professional player finds it offensive, they need a spine.

His WTTC record against Wang Hao is still a major black mark on his career. The 2013 loss was especially bad.

 

[NextLevel]

Gold content. Folks in China always talk about that when comparing the weight of titles. The gold content of the last 3 WTTC titles is among the lowest in recent history.

ML took out FB to win the title in 2015, FZD in 2017, and Falck in 2019. Ahem...

ZJK is the last one to take the title from the defender(WH) and former World Champ(WLQ) in 2011.

Before that, WH took it from then defender WLQ in 2009.

Schlager took out then defender WLQ and former World Champ KLH in 2003.

WLQ took out former World Champs Persson and KLH in 2001.

LGL took out former World Champs Gatien and Persson in 1999.

I agree with RidTheKid that you can't blame Ma Long for being healthier than his teammates, but I agree that we don't seem to have players of the quality of Zhang Jike and Wang Hao out there right now, other than Ma Long and Fan Zhendong. I still think Fan Zhendong and Harimoto have a lot to say about this debate.

 

[zeio]

http://sports.sina.com.cn/others/pingpang/2019-04-11/doc-ihvhiewr4727577.shtml

　　“如果选4个选手组成你的梦之队，这个组合是你在乒坛生涯中所遇到的最佳球手，他们会是谁？”这是1997年世乒赛之后约翰·费格的提问。

　　老瓦的回答是：郭跃华、江嘉良、佩尔森和阿佩伊伦。

　　“在你的梦之队中，为什么是郭跃华和江嘉良，而没有刘国梁、孔令辉？”这是2019年《乒乓世界》的提问。这个看似简单的问题，其实是有潜台词的，老瓦VS刘国梁、老瓦VS孔令辉在1995年至2000年之间的那些巅峰对决，40岁以上的球迷至今如数家珍，而老瓦的整个乒坛生涯中能让他连输6次的人也只有刘国梁。

　　老瓦肯定明白这些潜台词，所以他思索了很长时间才给出答案。“郭跃华在世锦赛上拿了两次单打冠军，在瑞典也很有名。他打球出神入化，看他打球可以享受乒乓球的神奇，我很遗憾在他的鼎盛时期一次也没遇上他。在我拿到世界冠军之前，江嘉良就很成功了，他是我追赶的榜样，也是我一直想打败的人。从别人手里夺来冠军，这种成功是很有意义的。”说到刘国梁、孔令辉，老瓦说自己很尊重他们，但没有像对郭跃华和江嘉良那种崇拜的成份。“我们三个都是大满贯，他们俩比我小一辈儿。”言外之意可能是，就像我追赶郭跃华、江嘉良，他们是追赶我的人。“我打了这么多年球，遇到了几代中国运动员，我想我对于他们的意义，就像他们对我一样，都是相互促进，相互鼓励。”

"If you were to choose 4 players to form your dream team from the best player you have encountered in your table tennis career, who would they be?" asked Jens Fellke after the WTTC 1997.

Waldner’s answer is: Guo Yuehua, Jiang Jialiang, Persson and Appelgren.

"For your dream team, why Guo Yuehua and Jiang Jialiang, and not Liu Guoliang and Kong Linghui?" This is a question from a 2019 issue of magazine "Table Tennis World". This seemingly simple question actually carries a subtext. Those clashes of Waldner VS Liu Guoliang and Waldner VS Kong Linghui between 1995 and 2000 are still treasured by the fans over 40 years old. In Waldner's career, Liu Guoliang is the only person who could make him lose 6 times in a row.

Waldner definitely understands the subtext, so he pondered for a long time before giving an answer. "Guo Yuehua won two singles titles in the World Championships and is also very famous in Sweden. He played so well that, while watching him play you can enjoy the magic of table tennis. It's a shame I didn't meet him once during his heyday. Before I won the world championship, Jiang Jialiang was already very successful. He was the role model I pursued and the one I always wanted to defeat. It means so much to snatch the championship from others." Speaking of Liu Guoliang and Kong Linghui, Waldner said that he respects them very much, but it doesn't come close to that for Guo Yuehua and Jiang Jialiang. "All three of us are grand slam holders. They are 2 generations younger than me." The implication may be that I pursued Guo Yuehua and Jiang Jialiang, and they are the people who pursued me. "I have played so many years and I have met several generations of Chinese players. I think what I'm to them is like how they're to me. Pushing and encouraging each other."

 

[usualsuspect]

I am not sure why you find it offensive. One of the discussions that surrounds the greatness of a player is the quality of the competition he faced. Look at tennis for example. The way you know players are great is that they are consistently performing well in multiple events. Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray were all great players because they were all consistently performing well across multiple events. On the hand, Serena was one great player, but she almost never faced another great player across many events as no one consistently challenged her. Basically, in tennis, if Federer, Djokovic and Nadal did not exist, it would obviously be Murray winning most of the titles.

The point here is that Wang Hao and Zhang Jike were the last great players that Ma Long regularly competed against in a similar generation. Xu Xin is up there, but he has balance issues. Fan Zhendong is from the next generation. Ma Long has definitely faced less competition in his period of dominance but I am not sure how that can or should be held against him. I mean, nobody holds it against Federer that he won most of his titles when Andy Roddick was the second best player in the world. And you can't blame Ma Long that Zhang Jike didn't remain healthy. Almost like blaming Waldner for longevity.

You might find it offensive, but it is legitimate criticism. And if any professional player finds it offensive, they need a spine.

His WTTC record against Wang Hao is still a major black mark on his career. The 2013 loss was especially bad.

It's not about their spin. It's about respect and sportsmanship, and it seems you have little of either. Anyone can be a critic, but it takes courage and lifelong dedication to achieve what ML did.
I have a hard time believing that some people can just write off others' achievements (with a straight face no less) by saying that they don't worth much because they faced less worthy competition.
Tell me, did Mattias Falck not work hard to get to WTTC final? And to say that ML's 2019 WTTC has less "gold content" because Falck isn't as legendary as WLQ or WH is insulting to both Falck (you seem to think he's "unworthy") and ML (although he just came back from injury and defeated LJK & LGY along the way).

 

[rainneverever]

Check out the gold content of OG MS then. LGL, MLin and ZJK's gold were pretty "weak" because they did not beat any former OG MS winner. By contrast, KLH beat JW in 2000, RSM beat JW in 2004, ML beat ZJK in 2016. JW also beat LGL in 2000, when LGL was defending champion although he lost to KLH in the final. The point is that a winner is a winner. Like Timo Boll beat WLQ, MLin, WH in 2005 WC but he was not given 2 trophies; Dimitrij Ovtcharov did not beat any CNT player in 2017 WC and the trophy could not be taken away from him. That's why you have other stats like h2h and winning %, if you think one won because of lucky draw.

And as I said, no matter which generation a CNT player is from, he can compete China National Games (started 1959) to prove how good he is among Chinese. Zhuang Zedong won MS gold once. Guo Yuehua's best result is silver and Zhang Xielin bronze. Other old famous names like Li Furong, Xu Yinsheng, Cai Zhenhua, Jiang Jialiang never made to the podium. It is just too competitive. Wang Liqin, Ma Lin and Wang Hao are all former winners at National Games and ML beat them all. XX beat MLin (lost to WLQ) in 2009 and beat WH in 2013. ZJK never beat any winners mentioned above (05 lost to WLQ, 09 lost to ML, 13 lost to FZD, 2017 lost to Zhou Kai).

 

[NextLevel]

It's not about their spin. It's about respect and sportsmanship, and it seems you have little of either. Anyone can be a critic, but it takes courage and lifelong dedication to achieve what ML did.
I have a hard time believing that some people can just write off others' achievements (with a straight face no less) by saying that they don't worth much because they faced less worthy competition.
Tell me, did Mattias Falck not work hard to get to WTTC final? And to say that ML's 2019 WTTC has less "gold content" because Falck isn't as legendary as WLQ or WH is insulting to both Falck (you seem to think he's "unworthy") and ML (although he just came back from injury and defeated LJK & LGY along the way).

So let's get this straight - journalists and statisticians have little respect and sportsmanship an I supposedly do because I can say that in my view that the players right now as not as great as prior players? Not sure why you need to personalize this issue but it is your prerogative. The only way this can go is back and forth insults and no point going there. You know nothing about my level of respect for modern players or my degree of sportsmanship. I am actually a person with a public personality across multiple forums. I sometimes wonder whether people like you would make such comments if your name and face were visible for all to see.


And no one will confuse Mattias Falck with Wang Hao. Spin it however you choose. They wouldn't even confuse Mattias Falck with Timo Boll. We have analytics for these kinds of things.

 

[suds79]

So I've spent a few posts in this thread saying you can't compare eras because the game has changed too much over the years. And I stand by that.

However I'll say this in favor for a case for Ma Long. Someone else pointed this out earlier that I fully agree with. I think athletes get better & better as time goes one. Our nutrition gets better, we learn more, we grow.

Just think about how the game was played with JO was playing to now and the evolution of the Bananna flick. They never did that back in the day. now it's a shot every pro knows like the back of their hand. Shoot even recently in Simon Gauzy's win over Xu Xin I saw him bust out the Strawberry catching Xu by surprise several times. Players continue to innovate & improve.

So by that standard, I think Ma Long is about as skilled as any player ever has been taking what we've seen prior greats do and build upon that. As the same time, I therefore think it's not impossible to see a future where he's passed up by say a FZD who or some other future star will will have the same skills but maybe more physically impressive which is where the sport is going. Bigger. Stronger. Faster

 

[NextLevel]

Check out the gold content of OG MS then. LGL, MLin and ZJK's gold were pretty "weak" because they did not beat any former OG MS winner. By contrast, KLH beat JW in 2000, RSM beat JW in 2004, ML beat ZJK in 2016. JW also beat LGL in 2000, when LGL was defending champion although he lost to KLH in the final. The point is that a winner is a winner. Like Timo Boll beat WLQ, MLin, WH in 2005 WC but he was not given 2 trophies; Dimitrij Ovtcharov did not beat any CNT player in 2017 WC and the trophy could not be taken away from him. That's why you have other stats like h2h and winning %, if you think one won because of lucky draw.

And as I said, no matter which generation a CNT player is from, he can compete China National Games (started 1959) to prove how good he is among Chinese. Zhuang Zedong won MS gold once. Guo Yuehua's best result is silver and Zhang Xielin bronze. Other old famous names like Li Furong, Xu Yinsheng, Cai Zhenhua, Jiang Jialiang never made to the podium. It is just too competitive. Wang Liqin, Ma Lin and Wang Hao are all former winners at National Games and ML beat them all. XX beat MLin (lost to WLQ) in 2009 and beat WH in 2013. ZJK never beat any winners mentioned above (05 lost to WLQ, 09 lost to ML, 13 lost to FZD, 2017 lost to Zhou Kai).

I think it is best to balance out arguments rather than to make them in one-sided fashion. I think it is hard to make a statistical case against Ma Long being the greatest player of all time. Borderline impossible.

But when you look at the quality of the competition he face on the way to his WTTC titles, 2017 is the best year. And the 2016 Olympics, well, we can talk about Zhang Jike being clearly past his prime at that point with injuries and the plastic ball. No need to deny that. ZJK was not even #2 in the world at that time. You can only beat the players in front of you but you can't argue that Ma Long has consistently faced the best players to win his WTTC like Wang Hao or Zhang Jike did.

Okay, enough devil's advocate. But like I said, those losses to Wang Hao stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[tropical]

To be fair to all players we should use stats when it comes to the GOAT definition.

Losing more to a particular opponent in certain events should not be used as standard. You can doubt but that is your personal opinion and not scientific.

The GOAT has "all time" term which means in this particular sport no matter what rules have been changed, players have been changed, conditions have been change, politics, nations, you name it, etc. have been changed ... the only ruler to measure the GOAT is stats.

 

[rainneverever]

I agree loses are loses. But ML is known to his poor luck in draw. He was always drawn into the same half with WH at WTTC. What if he were in another half? maybe beating ZJK in the semi but still lost to WH in the final? maybe beating ZJK in the final who beat WH in the semi? Or maybe he even did not reach semi. There are no such "what if"s. And look at the draw of 2017 and 2019 WTTC, ML had to face more high-ranked players compared to the other finalist no matter he was #1 seed or #11 seed.

Another interesting point is that ML is thought to be king of plastic ball here. However, in CNT, ML is thought to be most affected by plastic ball because of the reduced spin and his relatively weaker physical strength. If equipment change was against one and one can still survive and thrive, that says something about this sport: It is a chess game while running. You don't have to run the fast if you play chess good enough.

I think it is best to balance out arguments rather than to make them in one-sided fashion. I think it is hard to make a statistical case against Ma Long being the greatest player of all time. Borderline impossible.

But when you look at the quality of the competition he face on the way to his WTTC titles, 2017 is the best year. And the 2016 Olympics, well, we can talk about Zhang Jike being clearly past his prime at that point with injuries and the plastic ball. No need to deny that. ZJK was not even #2 in the world at that time. You can only beat the players in front of you but you can't argue that Ma Long has consistently faced the best players to win his WTTC like Wang Hao or Zhang Jike did.

Okay, enough devil's advocate. But like I said, those losses to Wang Hao stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[darucla]

This reminds me a little about arguments in other fields, specifically in boxing (in which I am even less of an expert than I am in table tennis). But I do remember arguments about Ali v Marciano, which were eventually "settled" by an actual "fight" between them (1969?) It was of course not a real fight, but a staged one. In the US, the film of the fight showed Marciano winning, and in Europe, we saw Ali win. Later, Marciano is reported to have told a sports writer that he knew as soon as Ali stepped into the ring, he (Rocky) would not have stood a chance against him even in his prime. " Too big, too quick...He had the fastest hands I've ever seen".
I have no great insight into everyone who ever played the game, but if I had to bet the house on a match between anyone and Ma Long, assuming that all other things were equalised (ie, Ma Long has gone back in time and been allowed to practise with whatever conditions applied, or vice versa for the other guy), I'd go with Ma Long, simply because of his TT brain. He seems to have had the analytical skill of an older and wiser LGL transplanted into his head, where it meshes with the best all-round physical game of ML.
As it stands, you can only play the opponents you meet. I think it is a logical fallacy to suggest that someone is not the best because he beats everyone, and someone from the past is the best because other people won some titles too in that time. We are in trouble comparing one to one, without comparing the whole current TT playing community against the former TT playing community, IYSWIM.
BTW, leaving aside questions about the GOAT, if there had been no Ma Long, what would table tennis rankings look like today?

 

[NextLevel]

This reminds me a little about arguments in other fields, specifically in boxing (in which I am even less of an expert than I am in table tennis). But I do remember arguments about Ali v Marciano, which were eventually "settled" by an actual "fight" between them (1969?) It was of course not a real fight, but a staged one. In the US, the film of the fight showed Marciano winning, and in Europe, we saw Ali win. Later, Marciano is reported to have told a sports writer that he knew as soon as Ali stepped into the ring, he (Rocky) would not have stood a chance against him even in his prime. " Too big, too quick...He had the fastest hands I've ever seen".
I have no great insight into everyone who ever played the game, but if I had to bet the house on a match between anyone and Ma Long, assuming that all other things were equalised (ie, Ma Long has gone back in time and been allowed to practise with whatever conditions applied, or vice versa for the other guy), I'd go with Ma Long, simply because of his TT brain. He seems to have had the analytical skill of an older and wiser LGL transplanted into his head, where it meshes with the best all-round physical game of ML.
As it stands, you can only play the opponents you meet. I think it is a logical fallacy to suggest that someone is not the best because he beats everyone, and someone from the past is the best because other people won some titles too in that time. We are in trouble comparing one to one, without comparing the whole current TT playing community against the former TT playing community, IYSWIM.
BTW, leaving aside questions about the GOAT, if there had been no Ma Long, what would table tennis rankings look like today?

I think no one ever suggested that someone is not the best because he beat everyone or because he didn't beat everyone decisively. There are subtle arguments about the quality of your opposition. They can be weighted as part of the discussion. Maybe zeio thinks they are enough to dispute Ma Long but I don't. But it is best to consider objections rather than to act as if people who make them are "unsportsmanlike", disrespectful or acting in bad faith.

Otherwise we will get such arguments as that because Mattias Falck has a WTTC silver, he is as great as Vladimir Samsonov and greater singles player than Boll who only has a WTTC bronze. If you find that statement puzzling, I think you are just as polite as the rest of us.

 

[NextLevel]

I agree loses are loses. But ML is known to his poor luck in draw. He was always drawn into the same half with WH at WTTC. What if he were in another half? maybe beating ZJK in the semi but still lost to WH in the final? maybe beating ZJK in the final who beat WH in the semi? Or maybe he even did not reach semi. There are no such "what if"s. And look at the draw of 2017 and 2019 WTTC, ML had to face more high-ranked players compared to the other finalist no matter he was #1 seed or #11 seed.

Another interesting point is that ML is thought to be king of plastic ball here. However, in CNT, ML is thought to be most affected by plastic ball because of the reduced spin and his relatively weaker physical strength. If equipment change was against one and one can still survive and thrive, that says something about this sport: It is a chess game while running. You don't have to run the fast if you play chess good enough.

Do you think the plastic ball hurt Ma Long as much as it hurt Zhang Jike? Speak truthfully.

 

[rainneverever]

The problem is not what I think but what the experts in the field especially CNT coaches think about the effect of plastic ball.

The ball change affects players, some especially younger generation may take advantage but it does not mean senior players who are used to old ball cannot cope with it.

For bigger ball, you need more strength to generate spin. ZJK has better physical strength than ML, right? In CNT, many others like XX, FZD, LJK have better physical strength than ML. You cannot change the ball, you just change yourself. What did ML do to himself then? Spend more time in the gym to build up more muscles.

If you think ZJK's decline in recent years is due to injuries, LGL and Xiao Zhan had other thoughts which I posted years ago. He needed technical improvements but he did not really work on it. What did ML do to himself then? Improve his BH (or to say get a suitable BH rubber) and develop better tactics, especially against the world of banana flipping every ball.

There is a Chinese saying, sailing against the current, you must forge ahead or you will be washed away. You evolve, you survive.

If you think ZJK has more injuries than ML, the thing is that ML was almost done due to ankle injury back in 2010 which never really healed. Before 2016 OG, it is ML and XX who got shots for injures but not ZJK. ML, XX and alike just never used injuries as the excuse of losses. Of course you can argue ZJK lost interest in TT that's why he did not try hard to adapt and improve and he did not care about the losses since he got all big titles. Agreed. And that's why CNT never counts on him in team events.

Do you think the plastic ball hurt Ma Long as much as it hurt Zhang Jike? Speak truthfully.

 

[AKB5]

Umm, to the people that think going from 21 pt games to 11 pt games, or going from 38 mm to 40 mm to 40+ mm, or the speed glue ban is a reason the sport is 'so different', then I don't know what the common ground is. Are you saying that b/c of those changes, we can't compare Ma Long to Waldner? I mean, seriously, watch the games, he is better by multiple metrics and to me the eye test. Look, I'm not even the biggest Ma Long fan, but I'm a fan of facts/data/trophies, and it is hard to argue anyone else.

In terms of depth, I think the sport is deeper, b/c their are more and more people that play every day. All sports participation is increasing and the level of training and sophistication is far greater and starts far earlier. There is a chance a 6 year old kid will be better than Ma Long, b/c he has more skilled training earlier than Ma Long did or more advanced technique, etc, etc. All sports have era evolution of style, equipment, training, etc, to say we can't compare is a bit much.

If you don't think Ma Long is the GOAT? Who is?

 

[NextLevel]

The problem is not what I think but what the experts in the field especially CNT coaches think about the effect of plastic ball.

The ball change affects players, some especially younger generation may take advantage but it does not mean senior players who are used to old ball cannot cope with it.

For bigger ball, you need more strength to generate spin. ZJK has better physical strength than ML, right? In CNT, many others like XX, FZD, LJK have better physical strength than ML. You cannot change the ball, you just change yourself. What did ML do to himself then? Spend more time in the gym to build up more muscles.

If you think ZJK's decline in recent years is due to injuries, LGL and Xiao Zhan had other thoughts which I posted years ago. He needed technical improvements but he did not really work on it. What did ML do to himself then? Improve his BH (or to say get a suitable BH rubber) and develop better tactics, especially against the world of banana flipping every ball.

There is a Chinese saying, sailing against the current, you must forge ahead or you will be washed away. You evolve, you survive.

If you think ZJK has more injuries than ML, the thing is that ML was almost done due to ankle injury back in 2010 which never really healed. Before 2016 OG, it is ML and XX who got shots for injures but not ZJK. ML, XX and alike just never used injuries as the excuse of losses. Of course you can argue ZJK lost interest in TT that's why he did not try hard to adapt and improve and he did not care about the losses since he got all big titles. Agreed. And that's why CNT never counts on him in team events.

Spoken like a true ML fangirl.

 

[AKB5]

Btw, Injuries are a part of sports. Staying healthy is a part of it, training, nutrition, etc, and of course, there is some pure luck with injuries, but people can only judge what has occurred, not what would happen without injuries.

Btw, I do love ZJK, and he was a more exciting watch for me than Ma Long, but the question is who is better? That to me is Ma Long without debate.