ITTF/WTT problems reported from players

[RGo]

The issues for the sport run deep. And ttbl is just one part of it and a single example.
There are many many many more examples, some of those even political.

I think we can agree on that much, I just don't think stuff like the ttbl or wtt being free to watch is that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. They'd be about number 22 on my fictitious list of priorities and I'd say all of these problems are political because they take political will to tackle even on a local level but I guess you pointed more towards the geopolitical.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Actually my bad on that professionell research of mine. I just read the lines given by google and not the whole section. Although you can get a slight hint on how high the viewerbase will be... Kinda.
We will see when dyn releases some details probably of the end of this year.

Comparing viewercounts then and now (ittf to wtt for example) there is some increase to be seen especially in the major events. Maybe more naturally (due to more people watching stuff online) than due to their advertisement but still.

But that is exactly the point i was trying to make right at the beginning. The issues for the sport run deep. And ttbl is just one part of it and a single example.
There are many many many more examples, some of those even political.
But that would probably let this thread explode.

You guys do realize that this has nothing to so with subject on hand?

Maybe indirectly yes, but its quite a distance imo

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Travel arrangements changes has been talked about in the very first year of WTT

Firstly the tournament is announced less than 3 months ahead of time.
And then changes can occur any time.
This time it is with 2 months to go… I have seen 1 month to go ones….
When they say jump, players must say how high

 

[zeio]

ATTF and NTTF are as good as non-existent.

Aruna Clamours for Direct Budget Disbursement to Federations
https://www.thisdaylive.com/index.p...for-direct-budget-disbursement-to-federations

Tennis star Quadri worried about African Games, Singapore Smash schedules
https://gazettengr.com/tennis-star-quadri-worried-about-african-games-singapore-smash-schedules/
Table Tennis: Aruna Raises Alarm Over Clash In African Games, Singapore Smash
https://leadership.ng/table-tennis-aruna-raises-alarm-over-clash-in-african-games-singapore-smash/
Aruna raises alarm over clash of African Games, Singapore Smash
https://blueprint.ng/aruna-raises-alarm-over-clash-of-african-games-singapore-smash/

Abiodun was late for WTTC 2024 and got a ZPP as well. Something smells fishy here.

 

[d3nium]

I completely support Aruna and the players,

WTT are clearly taking the piss.

 

[Johnniedarko]

It's a bit like having a job and your employer is ITTF.
In a normal job if you don't go you because you are sick you must present a doctor certificate.

It makes sense that they force them to go, otherwise nobody would go to WTT except the chinese who always win lol.

FIFA is similar....if they call you to play for the national team you must go and your team must let you go and you can't play for your team during those days.

Bad comparison, but it proves the point exactly.

FIFA World Cup is once every 4 years. Continental Cups (UEFA European Championships for example) as well, so that is one international championship every 2 years.

The calendars are the same for every player in the World, so planning is easy.

None of it is mandatory. Your team calls you up. If you refuse, your national association might get angry, but that's it. FIFA is not even involved. They just recieve a entry list of players from the national Association.

The differences:

ITTF already had a yearly World Cup. That is what was in 'the contract'. It wasnt mandatory, just like in football.

ITTF WTT then added 5-20 events per year. Mandatory. Money and ranking penalties if you refuse.

Its more like ITTF is your employer and then said: I know you signed up for one world cup per year, but now there are 20 events per year and you need to travel to all of them. No income for you buddy, only costs. Yes FIFA added a dumb Nations League as well, but players do get paid there.

Do you think people from many developing countries can afford to fly over the world? That is why the racism card is pulled. If you are poor, you will never get a good ranking. That is always the case, but much worse now. The point penalties alone will keep your ranking down. Olympic entries are based on these points I believe (might be wrong), so I guess also say goodbye to ever being an Olympian.

The employer comparison is even worse, because employers pay their workers, like Tony said. It's work for pay. In this construction there is only work, no pay. Instead there's punishment. Either go, lose money on travel and accommodation and missed income, or don't go and lose money on penalties and penalty ranking points. Awesome.

 

[Trevize84]

I'm not sure how much you know about the subject, I will give you the doubt and assume know everything rather than know nothing.

Players at clubs get paid per match played.
No match = no income.

Players can leave club to play international - hence why European players still pitch in WTT. But they are sacrificing real income.

So, you are still focusing on the victim blaming. While i'm hoping that WTT stops with its getting fully calendar and forced/penalty manner to something that is more fair.
Victim blaming is really low, since WTT should have improvements.
Remember, they are still short of 1 smash this year. and there was no world cups prior to WTT coming to be and now there are 3 world cups (2 per gender)

so 4 smash, 4 champion, 1 world champ, 1 finals (per gender) 2 world cup, then there is continental games and continental cups. That is over 1 major event per month

Now, back to the victim
schedule clash is one thing and many players sacrifice club income to take part in WTT.
and then world champ - no schedule clash, but WTT/ITTF refuse his medical certificate.
Just like Granny Ni was refused her plea of unfit/ill to play.

then a collectivie big problem is, no payout from WTT between late Dec 2023 to basically today.
The players should of had a players non payment strike and refuse to play at Incheon.

Totally agree with you that WTT conduct isn't regular, actually I stated at the beginning it is not legal, at least in my country and they deserve a legal action.

I didn't know pro player's were paid on number of matches played. I thought at least at top level contracts were closer to other sports, like soccer in example.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Totally agree with you that WTT conduct isn't regular, actually I stated at the beginning it is not legal, at least in my country and they deserve a legal action.

I didn't know pro player's were paid on number of matches played. I thought at least at top level contracts were closer to other sports, like soccer in example.

It is a pity that LGL seems close to WTT management. I have always thought of him as someone with integrity

 

[Metaxa]

Aruna is more than right, a lot of thing have to be change but they should also dare to put their hands search one's own conscience.
I don't think it's normal that players can join several clubs around the world at the same time to play competition. 5 different clubs...come on!...and then clubs get into trouble because the schedules cannot be coordinated and drop out of their highest national league.
In Greece, they have already understood that things cannot go on like this. From next season, only one foreign player can be drafted into their squad. Own people/youth first!

 

[RGo]

I don't think it's normal that players can join several clubs around the world at the same time to play competition. 5 different clubs...come on!...and then clubs get into trouble because the schedules cannot be coordinated and drop out of their highest national league.

This is kinda beside the point because most national leagues already prohibit/penalise players for participating in multiple concurrent leagues, so players can only play for one club for national leagues and one for international club competitions (like the champion's league). The ttbl had multiple incidents (Truls, Assar, Lin Yun-Ju) of that last year and they followed through on all of them.

The issue here isn't national and international leagues not coordinating with each other, but the WTT giving 0 farts about the leagues and their schedule. For example, if Ochsenhausen from the ttbl would have made it to the final four this year then 2 of their players (Calderano and Gauzy) would have missed that event, even though that event was already scheduled in November iirc (at least that's when I think I bought my tickets).

 

[Metaxa]

This is kinda beside the point because most national leagues already prohibit/penalise players for participating in multiple concurrent leagues, so players can only play for one club for national leagues and one for international club competitions (like the champion's league). The ttbl had multiple incidents (Truls, Assar, Lin Yun-Ju) of that last year and they followed through on all of them.

The issue here isn't national and international leagues not coordinating with each other, but the WTT giving 0 farts about the leagues and their schedule. For example, if Ochsenhausen from the ttbl would have made it to the final four this year then 2 of their players (Calderano and Gauzy) would have missed that event, even though that event was already scheduled in November iirc (at least that's when I think I bought my tickets).

True, but the problem is not only at the highest WTT level but also lower. How can you now defend an individual national title if you have to play on a feeder? There goes the possibility of a new national title.

A player playing in 4 different European leagues and also in America? It shouldn't get any crazier.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Totally agree with you that WTT conduct isn't regular, actually I stated at the beginning it is not legal, at least in my country and they deserve a legal action.

I didn't know pro player's were paid on number of matches played. I thought at least at top level contracts were closer to other sports, like soccer in example.

sadly TT isn't a yearly salary from clubs.
but the club pay is good enough for many to go by.

if anything that is fixed, it would likely be from sponsors
ie LYJ will get X amount every month, with health/insurance/retirement from Taiwan Co-Op bank, because he is considered an employee and his job is just to play table tennis for Taiwan, and once a year for the bank in a domestic competition. Taiwan Co-Op bank has been sponsoring Lin since he was a kid and the bank is currently sponsoring the most amount of players in the country. The rest of the TT playing income does come from club performance - playing x matches, and bonus for winning.

other fixed income for Lin will be from Butterfly and then what ever other advertising contracts he has (he does have a few).
Taiwan is unique with the 3 banks paying players salary to play TT (Japan has something similar)
otherwise, most of players today earn they "playing income" from clubs. So, it is a big deal and I favour clubs over international as I believe in all other sports, the clubs structure has more marketing value than international (think cricket IPL, NBA, NHL, NFL, MLB, European football leagues etc)

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The issue here isn't national and international leagues not coordinating with each other, but the WTT giving 0 farts about the leagues and their schedule. For example, if Ochsenhausen from the ttbl would have made it to the final four this year then 2 of their players (Calderano and Gauzy) would have missed that event, even though that event was already scheduled in November iirc (at least that's when I think I bought my tickets).

Now imagine 1 month to go, WTT move the date by 3 days.
Will you rebook your hotel, airtickets to just say, yes sir, you do your change of date, and I will do mine too, because I'm a good boy.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

True, but the problem is not only at the highest WTT level but also lower. How can you now defend an individual national title if you have to play on a feeder? There goes the possibility of a new national title.

A player playing in 4 different European leagues and also in America? It shouldn't get any crazier.

not sure where national title comes into this equation.... I do think you are now going further and further away.
Irrespective on how national title comes into the talk, players will need to choose on what to do and how to balance partipation - at least they have choices to make.
It is all a balancing act.

I know some players earn money from clubs, to cover costs on WTT.
Aruna for example is one of them.

WTT is now just making it more and more difficult (forcing WTT champions/smashs + others, which is over 12 times a year) for him to earn money from clubs and when there are no income from clubs, Aruna also won't be able to self fund so many trips.
Maybe his reason for not able to take part is - no money?
But then he can't play else where during the date of the WTT event, else he will be fined for wanting to earn money for his kids school fees.

Aruna is just one of many in this suitation. There are only a handful of players that have all the trips covered, and they are basically all Asians. So, I won't be wrong to say that all European players are facing simliar challenges too.
Maybe some other players income is few times more than Aruna or maybe they have more advertising income, so the higher income ones may not feel the pinch so early, but some others will. That I am sure about.

 

[RGo]

Now imagine 1 month to go, WTT move the date by 3 days.
Will you rebook your hotel, airtickets to just say, yes sir, you do your change of date, and I will do mine too, because I'm a good boy.

That's commitment! For me, it wouldn't have been a big deal, since it's a 90-minute drive but I feel for you...

 

[Metaxa]

not sure where national title comes into this equation.... I do think you are now going further and further away.
Irrespective on how national title comes into the talk, players will need to choose on what to do and how to balance partipation - at least they have choices to make.
It is all a balancing act.

I know some players earn money from clubs, to cover costs on WTT.
Aruna for example is one of them.

WTT is now just making it more and more difficult (forcing WTT champions/smashs + others, which is over 12 times a year) for him to earn money from clubs and when there are no income from clubs, Aruna also won't be able to self fund so many trips.
Maybe his reason for not able to take part is - no money?
But then he can't play else where during the date of the WTT event, else he will be fined for wanting to earn money for his kids school fees.

Aruna is just one of many in this suitation. There are only a handful of players that have all the trips covered, and they are basically all Asians. So, I won't be wrong to say that all European players are facing simliar challenges too.
Maybe some other players income is few times more than Aruna or maybe they have more advertising income, so the higher income ones may not feel the pinch so early, but some others will. That I am sure about.

Any event taking place at the national level. Be it the national championships (that was a simple example) or as already mentioned by RGo the final from the ttbl or the final of Champions league. Players will also have obligations at their clubs. The above dates are fixed long in advance and almost all national championships take place on the same weekend in Europe. WTT should say, okay then we won't organise anything or the players involved will be exempt from fines and/or points.
Doesn't seem all that difficult to organise to me.

 

[RGo]

The above dates are fixed long in advance and almost all national championships take place on the same weekend in Europe.

This is no longer the case. Germany has moved theirs for example to work around the WTT calendar. I don't know if other associations have also done this yet but I foresee other associations following suit soon. For example, if France would be missing their top 3 due to a WTT tournament then I'd say the FFTT would also move the date.

 

[Metaxa]

This is no longer the case. Germany has moved theirs for example to work around the WTT calendar. I don't know if other associations have also done this yet but I foresee other associations following suit soon. For example, if France would be missing their top 3 due to a WTT tournament then I'd say the FFTT would also move the date.

Oh didn't know they moved it this year. In Belgium, the Netherlands and Greece it was already on the weekend of 23/24 March. (same time Beirut WTT Feeder)

 

[the-don]

Bad comparison, but it proves the point exactly.

FIFA World Cup is once every 4 years. Continental Cups (UEFA European Championships for example) as well, so that is one international championship every 2 years.

The calendars are the same for every player in the World, so planning is easy.

None of it is mandatory. Your team calls you up. If you refuse, your national association might get angry, but that's it. FIFA is not even involved. They just recieve a entry list of players from the national Association.

The differences:

ITTF already had a yearly World Cup. That is what was in 'the contract'. It wasnt mandatory, just like in football.

ITTF WTT then added 5-20 events per year. Mandatory. Money and ranking penalties if you refuse.

Its more like ITTF is your employer and then said: I know you signed up for one world cup per year, but now there are 20 events per year and you need to travel to all of them. No income for you buddy, only costs. Yes FIFA added a dumb Nations League as well, but players do get paid there.

Do you think people from many developing countries can afford to fly over the world? That is why the racism card is pulled. If you are poor, you will never get a good ranking. That is always the case, but much worse now. The point penalties alone will keep your ranking down. Olympic entries are based on these points I believe (might be wrong), so I guess also say goodbye to ever being an Olympian.

The employer comparison is even worse, because employers pay their workers, like Tony said. It's work for pay. In this construction there is only work, no pay. Instead there's punishment. Either go, lose money on travel and accommodation and missed income, or don't go and lose money on penalties and penalty ranking points. Awesome.

There's the qualifiers for the world cup, the qualifiers for the euro, the world cup, the euro, friendly matches that your national association sets up..... total is around 10-20 matches per year.
And football is a team sport so sometimes they travel to their home country, train together for a few days, then travel to the match, then back to home country and back to their league wherever that is.
This is especially hard for players who are not european and travel larger distances.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

There's the qualifiers for the world cup, the qualifiers for the euro, the world cup, the euro, friendly matches that your national association sets up..... total is around 10-20 matches per year.
And football is a team sport so sometimes they travel to their home country, train together for a few days, then travel to the match, then back to home country and back to their league wherever that is.
This is especially hard for players who are not european and travel larger distances.

lots of money, they travel in private jets, so its not that hard.

and 10-20 matches per year, we talking TT events for over 10-20 per year (if we calculate 5 to 10 matches per event, the number is greater)