Match video: Feedback welcome

[Tyler Vazquez]

A lot of people on this thread are telling me not to do the reverse pendulum serve because I don't have it down consistently and keep messing it up. Ever consider that I just really like doing it??? hahah

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

A lot of people on this thread are telling me not to do the reverse pendulum serve because I don't have it down consistently and keep messing it up. Ever consider that I just really like doing it??? hahah

That is fair. Then you should have fun practicing it.


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[Tyler Vazquez]

I was really just joking. But right now my ultimate goal is not necessarily to win RIGHT NOW, but to practice the things that will hopefully help me win later by incorporating the things you guys and others have told me into my game.

That is fair. Then you should have fun practicing it.


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[NextLevel]

I was really just joking. But right now my ultimate goal is not necessarily to win RIGHT NOW, but to practice the things that will hopefully help me win later by incorporating the things you guys and others have told me into my game.

Then don't play tournaments and go practice.

You don't practice during tournaments. You play to win matches. It takes a certain attitude to do things that are costing you points that you have not buttoned down to any reasonable degree of competence.

The reverse serve is probably the hardest serve in table tennis to practice and execute at a competent level. Many players don't even serve it for that reason alone.

But when playing to win a match, there is nothing more frustrating for a coach than to see a player repeatedly missing his own serves ( in other words, donating points to the opponent). Matches are where you execute, especially rated matches. They are not for you to practice incompetence. The only way you win this argument is by developing a competent reverse serve. I think just seeing that happen over and over again, I could empathize with TT Rogue but again, it is what it is. If the serve wins the point outright, it is one thing. But doing it just to get into a rally and losing so many points to faults is not the way to get better. It is okay to accept errors during practice ( it is important). It is not okay to accept errors on serves during matches. If you can't serve a serve well, don't do it during tournament matches. No argument. Just don't do it.

 

[Tyler Vazquez]

Fair enough. I can only go to the club on the weekends and that Saturday there was a tournament (not sanctioned) so it was going to be my only opportunity to play against good players and not just by myself or with coworkers who don't even spin the ball. I take the playing time I can get.

Then don't play tournaments and go practice.

You don't practice during tournaments. You play to win matches. It takes a certain attitude to do things that are costing you points that you have not buttoned down to any reasonable degree of competence.

The reverse serve is probably the hardest serve in table tennis to practice and execute at a competent level. Many players don't even serve it for that reason alone.

But when playing to win a match, there is nothing more frustrating for a coach than to see a player repeatedly missing his own serves ( in other words, donating points to the opponent). Matches are where you execute, especially rated matches. They are not for you to practice incompetence. The only way you win this argument is by developing a competent reverse serve. I think just seeing that happen over and over again, I could empathize with TT Rogue but again, it is what it is. If the serve wins the point outright, it is one thing. But doing it just to get into a rally and losing so many points to faults is not the way to get better. It is okay to accept errors during practice ( it is important). It is not okay to accept errors on serves during matches. If you can't serve a serve well, don't do it during tournament matches. No argument. Just don't do it.

 

[NextLevel]

Fair enough. I can only go to the club on the weekends and that Saturday there was a tournament (not sanctioned) so it was going to be my only opportunity to play against good players and not just by myself or with coworkers who don't even spin the ball. I take the playing time I can get.

Understood. But you posted a match and asked for advice. Now you are mocking the people who gave you advice to make a joke. The main point to take away is that missing a serve is a free, unearned point for the opponent. If you had a killer reverse serve that won the point, we could excuse it a little - just a little. Six points missed on a serve is not acceptable.

Let me tell you some higher level versions of the mistake you made. Whenever I break out a serve I have never practiced before in a match, I usually serve a fault by missing the ball altogether. My brain just puts together things that it has never tested and gets totally confused.

When I break out a serve I do decently but don't use a lot for the first time in a match at a critical point in the match, my coach groans and expects me to serve a fault or a bad serve when he is viewing my video or watching me live. He says it is an error that I should generally avoid. I am sure that he feels this way because it has happened to him as well in his playing days (he was Australian national champion at one time and serves are the best part of his game). Human beings are not as unique as we think we are.

We are telling you to value your serves. By the 3rd or fourth fault, that serve should have completely disappeared from your rotation if you were trying to win. But if you were playing for fun, you should have said so in your match description/introduction. Then we can tell you how to have more fun. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Tyler Vazquez]

I apologize if anyone felt mocked. I was just trying to be silly while also absorbing as much advice as possible. Is your coach Brett Clarke? He's been in Florida recently. Orlando/Cocoa Beach area where I live working with a guy from the Cocoa Beach club

Understood. But you posted a match and asked for advice. Now you are mocking the people who gave you advice to make a joke. The main point to take away is that missing a serve is a free, unearned point for the opponent. If you had a killer reverse serve that won the point, we could excuse it a little - just a little. Six points missed on a serve is not acceptable.

Let me tell you some higher level versions of the mistake you made. Whenever I break out a serve I have never practiced before in a match, I usually serve a fault by missing the ball altogether. My brain just puts together things that it has never tested and gets totally confused.

When I break out a serve I do decently but don't use a lot for the first time in a match at a critical point in the match, my coach groans and expects me to serve a fault or a bad serve when he is viewing my video or watching me live. He says it is an error that I should generally avoid. I am sure that he feels this way because it has happened to him as well in his playing days (he was Australian national champion at one time and serves are the best part of his game). Human beings are not as unique as we think we are.

We are telling you to value your serves. By the 3rd or fourth fault, that serve should have completely disappeared from your rotation if you were trying to win. But if you were playing for fun, you should have said so in your match description/introduction. Then we can tell you how to have more fun. You can't have it both ways.

 

[NextLevel]

I apologize if anyone felt mocked. I was just trying to be silly while also absorbing as much advice as possible. Is your coach Brett Clarke? He's been in Florida recently. Orlando/Cocoa Beach area where I live working with a guy from the Cocoa Beach club

Yes. He was here for a while too.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I was really just joking. But right now my ultimate goal is not necessarily to win RIGHT NOW, but to practice the things that will hopefully help me win later by incorporating the things you guys and others have told me into my game.

BTW: if you did not notice, I was joking around too.

 

[NextLevel]

BTW: if you did not notice, I was joking around too.

Carl channeling his inner clown. What's next? Face paint to intimidate opponents before playing matches? Hmmm.. we could paint the left side of your face red for when you hit a backhand and the right side black for the forehand...

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

More info. Serve practice is fun. And you don't need a table to practice, a floor, a couch or a bed will work when there is no table and you can still work on contact, level of spin, changing spin (side, top, back in any combination).

But yeah. Missing serves is not what you want at all. If I miss 1 serve in 3 full distance matches I will be annoyed. And it is something that is very easy to work on. So all you have to do is work on it and fix it.

But I also have a feeling you are thinking of serves the wrong way anyway. For my money, a serve that gives me an easy third ball to take control of the point is exactly what I want. A serve that gives me free points can be a liability and come back to haunt me when he opponent starts getting the returns on the table. But a serve that gives me a good third ball to work with gives me much more than just that point. It lets me get inside my opponent's head and gets him to be scared of what he gives me. That is a different kind of fear than the fear of the opponent's serve.

As far as I am concerned, a good third ball is really what I want from my serves. And there are many ways of getting that.

 

[pgpg]

I played in a small tournament over the weekend where I got second-to-last place. Watching this video, taken by my opponent, you'll see a ton of little mistakes that just mount quickly. He and I are both about the same level in ability but he doesn't make nearly as many mistakes as I do. I think there were ways I could have even won this match especially after taking game two but I rushed too much and did a million other things wrong.
...

Others already pointed out the serve issues (free points etc.) - I would add that in this match you could've used BH serve only. It seemed to work in the second game and more or less provides the same spin and ball movement your ill-fated reverse pendulum would. Your opponent had trouble with it as well, long one especially. One point on your BH serve: you execute it in a FH stance, with your left foot being way forward - it's quite awkward, since there is no way to do a proper serve motion with weight transfer.

Would also like to repeat the comment that your FH is too wristy (on some shots it looks like only wrist is engaged) and is very vertical (I have the same problem of not going forward enough).

Plenty of other little things, like being surprised by the serve or misjudging the ball flight and not being ready when it bounces on the end line - but these will get better with experience.

You will get better, but you do need some form of instruction - it's hard to teach yourself...

 

[Tyler Vazquez]

Yeah I don't know why i'm obsessed with the reverse and leave out my BH serve. I feel like I can -- in theory when I'm actually executing it -- vary the spin more on the reverse than with the BH. When I actually get it right I can make my side/top reverse look similar to a side/back reverse and that does throw off opponents who are close to my skill level. But yeah it needs a lot more attention and I should do the BH more long to the BH side.

BTW: if you did not notice, I was joking around too.

Others already pointed out the serve issues (free points etc.) - I would add that in this match you could've used BH serve only. It seemed to work in the second game and more or less provides the same spin and ball movement your ill-fated reverse pendulum would. Your opponent had trouble with it as well, long one especially. One point on your BH serve: you execute it in a FH stance, with your left foot being way forward - it's quite awkward, since there is no way to do a proper serve motion with weight transfer.

Would also like to repeat the comment that your FH is too wristy (on some shots it looks like only wrist is engaged) and is very vertical (I have the same problem of not going forward enough).

Plenty of other little things, like being surprised by the serve or misjudging the ball flight and not being ready when it bounces on the end line - but these will get better with experience.

You will get better, but you do need some form of instruction - it's hard to teach yourself...

Carl channeling his inner clown. What's next? Face paint to intimidate opponents before playing matches? Hmmm.. we could paint the left side of your face red for when you hit a backhand and the right side black for the forehand...

More info. Serve practice is fun. And you don't need a table to practice, a floor, a couch or a bed will work when there is no table and you can still work on contact, level of spin, changing spin (side, top, back in any combination).

But yeah. Missing serves is not what you want at all. If I miss 1 serve in 3 full distance matches I will be annoyed. And it is something that is very easy to work on. So all you have to do is work on it and fix it.

But I also have a feeling you are thinking of serves the wrong way anyway. For my money, a serve that gives me an easy third ball to take control of the point is exactly what I want. A serve that gives me free points can be a liability and come back to haunt me when he opponent starts getting the returns on the table. But a serve that gives me a good third ball to work with gives me much more than just that point. It lets me get inside my opponent's head and gets him to be scared of what he gives me. That is a different kind of fear than the fear of the opponent's serve.

As far as I am concerned, a good third ball is really what I want from my serves. And there are many ways of getting that.

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah I don't know why i'm obsessed with the reverse and leave out my BH serve. I feel like I can -- in theory when I'm actually executing it -- vary the spin more on the reverse than with the BH. When I actually get it right I can make my side/top reverse look similar to a side/back reverse and that does throw off opponents who are close to my skill level. But yeah it needs a lot more attention and I should do the BH more long to the BH side.

I'm obsessed with serves sometimes so that is not the problem - just don't miss 6 of them in a match!

And my favorite serve video...

And my second favorite...

 

[NextLevel]

More info. Serve practice is fun. And you don't need a table to practice, a floor, a couch or a bed will work when there is no table and you can still work on contact, level of spin, changing spin (side, top, back in any combination).

But yeah. Missing serves is not what you want at all. If I miss 1 serve in 3 full distance matches I will be annoyed. And it is something that is very easy to work on. So all you have to do is work on it and fix it.

But I also have a feeling you are thinking of serves the wrong way anyway. For my money, a serve that gives me an easy third ball to take control of the point is exactly what I want. A serve that gives me free points can be a liability and come back to haunt me when he opponent starts getting the returns on the table. But a serve that gives me a good third ball to work with gives me much more than just that point. It lets me get inside my opponent's head and gets him to be scared of what he gives me. That is a different kind of fear than the fear of the opponent's serve.

As far as I am concerned, a good third ball is really what I want from my serves. And there are many ways of getting that.

BTW, Carl is a master server. People who don't realize this (and Carl probably doesn't realize this himself) are not in tune with high level service technique. When Carl describes the service motion for his hook like the motion for using a drumstick to hit a drum, he sounds like Brett who describes his punch as using a hammer to hit in a nail.

In fact, when I think of my backspin/pendulum serve these days, the drum stick motion is more applicable than anything else ( maybe cracking a whip is the only thing that might beat it).

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

If the rest of my game was as good as my serves, hahaha, I would be able to play this game at a reasonable level. [emoji2]

Yeah. I love the reverse serve too, for practice. But it is much more risky in a match. My friend Matthew Suchy who is a 2600 player even says he won't do that serve in a tight match because it is too risky.

I love practicing the reverse serve. But I have other serves that give me much more but are much easier to use in pressure situations.

As far as the BH serve, that just means you need a little extra practice with it. NextLevel has top notch BH serves. At his level you have to be able to adjust the spin more, less, different placement, top, back, every way possible.

It is worth looking at those videos from Brett. The guy is amazing at getting you to understand how to improve your serves.

Last night I got a chance to practice a few serves without a table. I did it for about an hour. Man, I had fun.


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[NextLevel]

Yeah I don't know why i'm obsessed with the reverse and leave out my BH serve. I feel like I can -- in theory when I'm actually executing it -- vary the spin more on the reverse than with the BH. When I actually get it right I can make my side/top reverse look similar to a side/back reverse and that does throw off opponents who are close to my skill level. But yeah it needs a lot more attention and I should do the BH more long to the BH side.

By the way, here is me practicing my serves. I don't serve faults on this serve in matches and you can see why.

 

[Archosaurus]

You're not bad at all for a year of experience and no coach. Don't be too stressed about it.

I can't give you much good advice, especially advice that hasn't been said, but I can tell you this because my serves are far better than my game:

Learn pendulum. Learn it good. An hour straight 5 times a week for a year will do you amazing things. Google "Brett Clarke" and watch his serve videos, watch them multiple times and keep shadowing it. Your touch will improve alongside your serves, and if you put the time in, I bet your serve will become a real weapon at your level. Have fun, but focus on developing one solid serve first.

 

[countrybread]

Did you warm up before your match? I find it helps me cut down on unforced errors.

Were you nervous? I tried to help a couple of youngsters train for a tournament, but they were so nervous they forgot everything they learned. Of course, you're no child obviously, but the point is that tournament experience can be valuable in many ways. Good luck to you.

 

[TT_Rogue]

Fun fact in table tennis 60% of points are decided by serve. this includes direct point or extreme high advantage after receive. btw Tyler Im not lurking around in this forum to wait till some beginner posts a video of himself to tell him that he's bad. I didnt even say in one word that you're bad. I described what i saw combined with what i understand as humoristic comment combined whith advice. If you put you're ego aside you might be able to value this. I didnt write here to insult you neither to comfort your feelings, it's about pushing you in the direction where you can improve your game. And if you're missing the basics of this game you can not play it because it's all about the technique. And you sir need to learn step by step every stroke from the start and how to move right. --> Robot training, foot work training, serve training . This is what you have to do or what your coach has to do with you. And one more thing. Learning to play table tennis is a long term project, like you have to plan where you want to be in 15 years. And the attitude of I want to win a game right now is what can keep players down forever. And you still seem to be pretty young and it would be a waste of probably big potential.