My blade plays different than it used to

[Tuppe]

Hey,

This is my first thread here. I didn't really see an appropriate topic to post my question is.

Like the title says my blade doesn't play the same as it used to. Since 2 years I use a Butterfly Liu Shiwen Blade. I always played with a Rasant Powergrip on each side. I liked it alot. The blade felt soft and flexible, it was easy to impart spin on all kind of shots and I could loop everything. I've never changed equipment too often but since the beginning of 2017 I started experimenting alot with different rubbers because I heard that the Rasant Powergrip was going to be discontinued. I tried a bunch of stuff on my blade that I borrowed from club mates or that I bought. I tried something else every two weeks on each side of my blade and in the beginning everything worked quite well.

Since 3 months, however, I feel like my Liu Shiwen blade plays completely different than it used to. And it became worse and worse. No matter which rubber I tried, nothing felt good. Every rubber I tried on the blade feels like it is rock hard (T05, Vega Pro, MX-S, R47, RPG, T25) and I don't feel the flex and the softness of the blade anymore. I kept on changing rubbers but nothing really helped. Two weeks ago I tried a different new blade that a friend gave me (Xiom Vega Pro) and to my surprise everything feels good again. There is a alot of feeling in the blade, I feel a lot of dwell and I can produce alot of spin again. Now I play with the Vega Pro blade and everything is great but I'm still confused about the last 3 months.

What happened to my Liu Shiwen Blade? I used to love that blade. Is it because the overuse of the water glue when I was experimenting with rubbers? Did it absorp all the water glue and did the properties of the blade change? Is that even possible? It's the only explanation I see and I don't want my new blade to suffer the same fate.

Or am I just going insane and am I on the path to become a desperate equipment junkie ?

For the clarification: I am no beginner in the sport. I started playing more than 10 years ago and I have a decent rating in Belgium. I know what kind of blades I like (relative soft and flexible) and what kind of rubbers I like on blades like that (45°-50° hardness). Every setup I try that falls in that range feels good to me.

 

[Shifu]

Yes it's possible, sweat and especially water based glue changes a blade's playing behaviour. did you seal your blade?
some pros like Dima change their blade every 3 months now due to the new glue.

 

[Tuppe]

I didn't seal it no. Thanks for the info.

Ugh, I wish the seller gave me that info before I bought a blade of more than 150 euro's

 

[Shifu]

sorry to hear that. I think you should always seal your blade. I guess some pros don't do it but they get lots by their supplier for free, so they don't care.

as far as i heard for example, Samsonov played with an old Mazunov for over 15 years until the water based glue ruined it for him and since then he plays with new blades.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yep. It sounds like it is very possible that the water from the glue, from changing rubbers so often could have done that.

From what you have said, to me it seems, it could be one of these two things:

1) water from the glue messing with the wood.
2) what you like has changed.

It is more likely the first.

If you are not changing your rubbers frequently, sealing is not that important. And many people don't like to seal their blades. But if you are gluing rubbers onto your blade that often, it WILL eventually mess up the wood.

Think about taking an ordinary blade without rubbers and not sealed. And every two weeks pouring water on it and then letting it dry. What do you think would happen after 2-4 months of that?

But it may also be something else. It may be that what you like changed a little. The Vega Pro blade is different from the InnerForce blade.

Leave the IF blade hanging, either upright or handle up, with no rubbers on for a month or so. Then seal the blade. Then try it again. See what happens.

Also, seal your current blade.

Also, if you know someone with the same IF blade, have them let you try theirs and see how theirs feel. Sometimes as we try many different setups, what we like changes and then our original setup can stop feeling as good. So it still could be that.

But the water glue reason is still more likely.


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[Jirrex]

I am sorry to hear what happened to your blade. From what I've read, I'd say that the pros of sealing outweigh the cons. If done properly, I doubt that the play characteristics change that much, if at all. I'm fairly new to table tennis, so I can't speak out of own experience yet. I sealed my blade, but I don't have another unsealed blade to compare with. Even if I had, it would be really hard to compare, since they wouldn't be 100% identical.

@UpsideDownCarl
Is one thin layer of Wipe-On Poly sufficient to avoid water to penetrate the wood?

 

[Tuppe]

Good advice in this thread. Thanks.

I'm one of those guys who doesn't like a sealed blade. I've done it once many years ago and from what I remember it made my blade feel harder and less flexible. I stopped using it a few weeks later. I'm considering just using VOC glue when I change rubbers every six months or so. I know it's not allowed anymore but I don't want to mess up the Vega Pro Blade. Not by water glue and not by sealing it.

I'll give Carls advice a try and let the zlf blade dry for two months and then seal it. I'm curious about the results.

 

[Shifu]

well if you don't 'speedglue', meaning you wait for the VOCs to dissolve before playing then it won't be any problem.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

With the MinWax Wipe-On-Poly that I use, I don't feel it changes the playing characteristics to any extent that is noticeable.

The other thing about sealing: the thicker the layer, the more it effects how the blade plays. The thinner the layer, the less it effects playing characteristics.

Even two thin coats of Wipe-On-Poly won't cause the blade to feel noticeably different because, with how it is made, you can put a very thin coat that fully covers the blade face. I use one coat. For me, it is enough. But I don't put water based glue on my blades every other week. If you know you are going to be pulling rubbers off and gluing new ones on over and over, two thin coats might be safer.

I do know people who put water based glue on the rubbers and old VOC rubber cement on the wood.

I also have a way of swapping rubbers from blade to blade without adding more glue. But that will only work with certain WB glues.

@ Tuppe, that time you sealed your blade, what kind of sealant did you use? How thick a layer did you use?


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[ttmonster]

Quick question on this, amazon product description says this is water based and you can remove it with water , will it not dissolve ever so slightly when using WBG ?

With the MinWax Wipe-On-Poly that I use, I don't feel it changes the playing characteristics to any extent that is noticeable.

The other thing about sealing: the thicker the layer, the more it effects how the blade plays. The thinner the layer, the less it effects playing characteristics.

Even two thin coats of Wipe-On-Poly won't cause the blade to feel noticeably different because, with how it is made, you can put a very thin coat that fully covers the blade face. I use one coat. For me, it is enough. But I don't put water based glue on my blades every other week. If you know you are going to be pulling rubbers off and gluing new ones on over and over, two thin coats might be safer.

I do know people who put water based glue on the rubbers and old VOC rubber cement on the wood.

I also have a way of swapping rubbers from blade to blade without adding more glue. But that will only work with certain WB glues.

@ Tuppe, that time you sealed your blade, what kind of sealant did you use? How thick a layer did you use?


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[Tuppe]

@Carl: I didn't seal it myself. A former club mate did it for me like 8 years ago. So no idea what kind of sealant it was. Probably the layer was too thick. The blade felt completely different after it.

I removed the rubbers from the IF racket (one ripped, the rubbers are way harder to remove than it was in the beginning) and hung it up to dry. When I'm going to the local dealer in 1,5 month for new rubbers I'm gonna ask him to seal it very thinly like you said. Very curious if that will fix it.

Anyway, I'm glad I know now. It's the last time I'm gonna use water glue that often on my blade and don't plan on experimenting with other rubbers anytime soon. The only results were frustration and an empty wallet.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Quick question on this, amazon product description says this is water based and you can remove it with water , will it not dissolve ever so slightly when using WBG ?

I do not use the Water-Based version. I use the real stuff with good old fashioned VOCs.

However, with the WB version, I am sure cleaning up after is possible with water. But once it is FULLY DRY, I doubt water would work to clean it up.

Something to test with a different water based product.

1) pour some WB glue onto something like a plate
2) let it dry fully, let's say 2-3 hours for being sure
3) now, see if adding water will cause it to turn to liquid glue again

My money says, once it is fully dry the glue will NOT dissolve in water. Same statement for the Wipe-On-Poly.

But the good old fashioned VOC stuff is so good, I see no need to use the WB version. And once the sealant is dry the VOCs should be gone. So gone before you glue.

However, my money says that the WB version is pretty much what most TT companies sell as their WB sealant. And probably is fine.

One time Edmund Suen sealed a blade of mine with Xiom's WB sealant. I did not like it. The glue grabbed the sealant too hard and made it very hard to remove the rubbers. I instantly used mineral spirits, removed the WB sealant and resealed the blade with the good old fashioned stuff. [emoji2]

Hope that answers your questions.


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[ttmonster]

Thank you Carl, I have been thinking of sealing my main blade ( ZJK ALC ) now that it has been shredded by WBG , refer to Der_Echte's comment on putting on the Karis H ... I am thinking of sealing this blade and replace it with viscaria for a main blade when the purse permits !

I do not use the Water-Based version. I use the real stuff with good old fashioned VOCs.

However, with the WB version, I am sure cleaning up after is possible with water. But once it is FULLY DRY, I doubt water would work to clean it up.

Something to test with a different water based product.

1) pour some WB glue onto something like a plate
2) let it dry fully, let's say 2-3 hours for being sure
3) now, see if adding water will cause it to turn to liquid glue again

My money says, once it is fully dry the glue will NOT dissolve in water. Same statement for the Wipe-On-Poly.

But the good old fashioned VOC stuff is so good, I see no need to use the WB version. And once the sealant is dry the VOCs should be gone. So gone before you glue.

However, my money says that the WB version is pretty much what most TT companies sell as their WB sealant. And probably is fine.

One time Edmund Suen sealed a blade of mine with Xiom's WB sealant. I did not like it. The glue grabbed the sealant too hard and made it very hard to remove the rubbers. I instantly used mineral spirits, removed the WB sealant and resealed the blade with the good old fashioned stuff. [emoji2]

Hope that answers your questions.


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[Jirrex]

@Carl: I didn't seal it myself. A former club mate did it for me like 8 years ago. So no idea what kind of sealant it was. Probably the layer was too thick. The blade felt completely different after it.

I removed the rubbers from the IF racket (one ripped, the rubbers are way harder to remove than it was in the beginning) and hung it up to dry. When I'm going to the local dealer in 1,5 month for new rubbers I'm gonna ask him to seal it very thinly like you said. Very curious if that will fix it.

Anyway, I'm glad I know now. It's the last time I'm gonna use water glue that often on my blade and don't plan on experimenting with other rubbers anytime soon. The only results were frustration and an empty wallet.

As far as I know, all 'real' table tennis blade sealants are water based, so they will only protect your blade from splintering when you remove your rubbers. I'm afraid it won't prevent what happened to your Liu Shiwen blade, so it might be advisable to look for another kind of sealant and seal the blade yourself. If you use Carl's method, it really is a simple proces and with a bit of common sense you'll be able to put a very thin layer on the blade.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

As far as I know, all 'real' table tennis blade sealants are water based, so they will only protect your blade from splintering when you remove your rubbers. I'm afraid it won't prevent what happened to your Liu Shiwen blade, so it might be advisable to look for another kind of sealant and seal the blade yourself. If you use Carl's method, it really is a simple proces and with a bit of common sense you'll be able to put a very thin layer on the blade.

I am not sure if you got what I was saying to Monster. But...I am pretty sure that the WB sealants, once they are dried are no longer water soluble.


Otherwise the term sealant would be inaccurate.

However, with the WB version, I am sure cleaning up after is possible with water. But once it is FULLY DRY, I doubt water would work to clean it up.

Something to test with a different water based product.

1) pour some WB glue onto something like a plate
2) let it dry fully, let's say 2-3 hours for being sure
3) now, see if adding water will cause it to turn to liquid glue again

My money says, once it is fully dry the glue will NOT dissolve in water. Same statement for the Wipe-On-Poly.

How many people are solipsistic enough to quote themselves! [emoji2][emoji2]

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[Jirrex]

I am not sure if you got what I was saying to Monster. But...I am pretty sure that the WB sealants, once they are dried are no longer water soluble.


Otherwise the term sealant would be inaccurate.


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I must have missed that line and indeed, the term sealant would be inaccurate. But I remember I read several times that the water based blade sealants didn't make the blade's surface moisture proof.

http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=27

There's one source that claims it.

I guess this doesn't apply to WB Wipe-On Poly.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I must have missed that line and indeed, the term sealant would be inaccurate. But I remember I read several times that the water based blade sealants didn't make the blade's surface moisture proof.

http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=27

There's one source that claims it.

I guess this doesn't apply to WB Wipe-On Poly.

I am not sure. But it would be strange for them to be making something for sealing that would dissolve if you spilt water on your table. And the glue won't dissolve in the water after it is fully dried. Not sure why they would make a water based sealant if it dissolved in the face of spills.

But I still would prefer the old fashioned stuff because I know how well it works. And I am not sure the fancy chemical treatment that would make it so you can have Poly Urethane stay dissolved and stable in water until it dries, would actually work as well as the stuff dissolved in the good old lethal smelling VOCs.


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[Jirrex]

I am not sure. But it would be strange for them to be making something for sealing that would dissolve if you spilt water on your table. And the glue won't dissolve in the water after it is fully dried. Not sure why they would make a water based sealant if it dissolved in the face of spills.

But I still would prefer the old fashioned stuff because I know how well it works. And I am not sure the fancy chemical treatment that would make it so you can have Poly Urethane stay dissolved and stable in water until it dries, would actually work as well as the stuff dissolved in the good old lethal smelling VOCs.


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I agree with you that it would be strange to make a 'sealant' that dissolves with water, but the sources I've found seemed pretty trustworthy to me, hence I pointed this out. Note that I was only referring to the sealants that are sold by table tennis companies as blade sealants (and not the water based Polyurethane products for example).

Anyway, in this case I'd say better safe than sorry, and just use a (non water based) Polyurethane sealant, like you do.

 

[Baal]

As far as I know, all 'real' table tennis blade sealants are water based, so they will only protect your blade from splintering when you remove your rubbers. I'm afraid it won't prevent what happened to your Liu Shiwen blade, so it might be advisable to look for another kind of sealant and seal the blade yourself. If you use Carl's method, it really is a simple proces and with a bit of common sense you'll be able to put a very thin layer on the blade.

Many sealants are water soluble in the bottle and then become water insoluble once the components polymerize (as the water dries) and form cross-links with the wood fibers and with each other. That can keep the outer layer from softening in response to water and can tend to resist the water from the glue from penetrating too deeply. If you are careful it won't noticeably change the properties of the wood, but use very sparingly.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Many sealants are water soluble in the bottle and then become water insoluble once the components polymerize (as the water dries) and form cross-links with the wood fibers and with each other. That can keep the outer layer from softening in response to water and can tend to resist the water from the glue from penetrating too deeply. If you are careful it won't noticeably change the properties of the wood, but use very sparingly.

It is good to have a simple version of how it can be dissolved in water but no longer water soluble after it dries.

I suspect the reports that WB sealants that still dissolve in water after they dry fall into the same category as stories about garlic and vampires or some of the stories about H3 National.

But, regardless of what kind of sealant, to really, fully, completely seal the blade so it is protected completely from water absorption would take too much sealant and would definitely change the way your blade plays.

I would just go with one very thin coat and accept that you don't want to pour water onto your blade too too often.

Think about those guys who, when they reglue use old glue (rubber cement or speed glue) on the wood.

If you are going to change your rubbers 2x a month or more, do that. Use rubber cement on the wood and WB glue on the sponge.


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