My Butterfly Dignics 09C Review: Why I think that most amateur players should avoid it

[victormanriquey]

Would you be able to compare Dignics 09c to Hurricane 3 Neo 37°? I'm going to be using it on my backhand in a few weeks when my order gets here and would like to get an idea since H3N 37° has been my go-to for BH.

Yes wil do soon in the next blogpost The, tl;dr is that 37 is more dead and linear unless you boost properly, which means it has more control overall but it does not help you as much with your strokes, and throw angle is noticeable lower on 37. I have played H3N 37 on BH a lot and really enjoyed it, but misses tempo, so I find 8-80 better for the normal average player

For me, I like H3N even better but it is a pain in the ass to boost when there are 10001x better things to do with my limited time.

Yep agreed, this is what I warn people about as well, it's good, but boosting is annoying.

Have you tried playing without hitting into the sponge? That's what a lot of players do, and for that purpose H3 is very good as the difficulty in hitting into the sponge becomes a positive rather than a negative. With other rubbers, you may accidentally hit into the sponge, causing catapult that lower level players can't control. With H3, especially unboosted H3, that happens way less often so you always get slow and relatively spinny shots which can win you a lot of points at that level.

Very much agree, most people don't understand this concept (from experience coaching amateurs offline and online).

It feels like you are asking people learn parallel parking without the help of cameras where most modern cars come with 360 view cameras.
Sure, if you practise parking with 360 cameras you won't be able to park without it. But do you really need to park without looking at your camera? Technology/equipment is your friend. And dignics 09c is a rubber to help you out. I agree with Timo Ball here that most people should be able to use this without hardship.

It's not like tenergy 05 or dignics 05 that requires very good skill.

If you come from T05 or D05 it will feel better yeah, has more control, but that's only because the other two have much more bounce, I never recommend those to any amateurs, but again, this is my contrarian perspective to what seems to be norm, I'm fine being the non-standard controversial guy, I firmly believe in it and have seen the results myself for 2y now

In any case and I think I have explained it above well, I do not say that H3N or D09c are easy to use for amateurs, they are not, I say I prefer H3N for FH, and 09c for BH, but they both come with important warnings, hence my opinions. Can they be used? Sure they can, but if you do use them, you must understand how they work so you get the best of it. All that said, I will always say that the price of 09c is not worth it for most of us here unless a certain level of skill is reached, plenty of cheaper alternatives that will you more than 09c, T05 and D05 in the market. Last thing, I'm not anti-butterfly, I recommend their products in my blog as well, for example I love their blades. Just want to make this clear, I'm not married to any brand, also not DHS, they have plenty of bad quality and issues themselves.

 

[MORTtheORT]

To go contrarian to the OP @victormanriquey says about 09C...

Many professionally trained children players use such a rubber... and with this new gen of ABS ball, it is so easy to hit through pin than previous gen ABS or Cell ball... so kids now are training to flip spin serves... then counter that flip... and counter that counter with a more crushing compact stroke counter...

09C makes it easy to do those tasks than many rubbers and makes it a no brainer choice... even so D05 for that... both excel there.

Personally, as good and skilled player I am, I do not use such a shot enough and my current rubbers do fine in that area so it would be unsensible to change.

The argument would be that these kids struggle against the offspeed ball and no spin ball and the D09C makes it even more difficult for them.

The D09C is a perfect rubber for short serve to open up to high energy top spin attacks. Not ideal for hesitate players who play passive shots which is common in amateurs.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Have you tried playing without hitting into the sponge? That's what a lot of players do, and for that purpose H3 is very good as the difficulty in hitting into the sponge becomes a positive rather than a negative. With other rubbers, you may accidentally hit into the sponge, causing catapult that lower level players can't control. With H3, especially unboosted H3, that happens way less often so you always get slow and relatively spinny shots which can win you a lot of points at that level.

There's no way to play without hitting into the sponge lol, I'm not sure what that means

 

[NextLevel]

Have you tried playing without hitting into the sponge? That's what a lot of players do, and for that purpose H3 is very good as the difficulty in hitting into the sponge becomes a positive rather than a negative. With other rubbers, you may accidentally hit into the sponge, causing catapult that lower level players can't control. With H3, especially unboosted H3, that happens way less often so you always get slow and relatively spinny shots which can win you a lot of points at that level.

Thin brush is not what people think it is and it isn't necessarily a bad thing either.

 

[NextLevel]

The argument would be that these kids struggle against the offspeed ball and no spin ball and the D09C makes it even more difficult for them.

The D09C is a perfect rubber for short serve to open up to high energy top spin attacks. Not ideal for hesitate players who play passive shots which is common in amateurs.

Not sure which kids you are talking about. Everyone who is focused on topspin rallying begins to struggle with the no spin ball unless they are kept in contact with it. It isn't a property of the rubber

 

[Creek]

honestly… for me (~1870 ttr or 2150 usatt), I would rather say that most Players below 1700 ttr are not even close to making benefit of d09c. There Are much better alternatives on the market which are easier to activate and more forgiving (almost all hybrids below 55 degree).
Even for me as an Advanced Offensive Player, I am still better of with a nuzn50 than a d09c

 

[NextLevel]

Yes wil do soon in the next blogpost The, tl;dr is that 37 is more dead and linear unless you boost properly, which means it has more control overall but it does not help you as much with your strokes, and throw angle is noticeable lower on 37. I have played H3N 37 on BH a lot and really enjoyed it, but misses tempo, so I find 8-80 better for the normal average player

Yep agreed, this is what I warn people about as well, it's good, but boosting is annoying.

Very much agree, most people don't understand this concept (from experience coaching amateurs offline and online).

If you come from T05 or D05 it will feel better yeah, has more control, but that's only because the other two have much more bounce, I never recommend those to any amateurs, but again, this is my contrarian perspective to what seems to be norm, I'm fine being the non-standard controversial guy, I firmly believe in it and have seen the results myself for 2y now

In any case and I think I have explained it above well, I do not say that H3N or D09c are easy to use for amateurs, they are not, I say I prefer H3N for FH, and 09c for BH, but they both come with important warnings, hence my opinions. Can they be used? Sure they can, but if you do use them, you must understand how they work so you get the best of it. All that said, I will always say that the price of 09c is not worth it for most of us here unless a certain level of skill is reached, plenty of cheaper alternatives that will you more than 09c, T05 and D05 in the market. Last thing, I'm not anti-butterfly, I recommend their products in my blog as well, for example I love their blades. Just want to make this clear, I'm not married to any brand, also not DHS, they have plenty of bad quality and issues themselves.

Which are these non-butterfly rubbers that give intermediates and beginners more value than 05 and 09c? Genuinely curious since I obviously don't meet people using them. The DHS ones you recommend in your reviews?

 

[MORTtheORT]

Not sure which kids you are talking about. Everyone who is focused on topspin rallying begins to struggle with the no spin ball unless they are kept in contact with it. It isn't a property of the rubber

It is harder for a young kids to activate a hard rubber. Even more so when the opponent takes the spin or energy off the ball.

 

[victormanriquey]

honestly… for me (~1870 ttr or 2150 usatt), I would rather say that most Players below 1700 ttr are not even close to making benefit of d09c. There Are much better alternatives on the market which are easier to activate and more forgiving (almost all hybrids below 55 degree).
Even for me as an Advanced Offensive Player, I am still better of with a nuzn50 than a d09c

Yep, this is my opinion as well @Creek

It is harder for a young kids to activate a hard rubber. Even more so when the opponent takes the spin or energy off the ball.

Agreed @MORTtheORT

 

[NextLevel]

It is harder for a young kids to activate a hard rubber. Even more so when the opponent takes the spin or energy off the ball.

So you mean there are no young kids playing with hurricane on forehand right? And it is harder to play with 09c than 39 degtee Hurricane?

 

[victormanriquey]

By the way, since the discussion continues, which is good for the overall watchers of the thread, today I want to bring in some objective data. I firmly believe in my opinion, but it's not because I'm making things up, it's because the beautiful thing about being a coach for about 2y + helping people with personalised advice gives me this data. I'm not just blowing hot air, these are real player stories, and not just from my club, also from the US, in all categories of play. Let me tell you about these without mentioning full names:

Player 1 - S.: I helped S. some weeks ago with technique and gear, he has played for a while in the US, has a TT table in his basement, age between 30-40, and he is a low intermediate. He was really struggling with D09c on both sides. You can read his story here on reddit.

Player 2 - J.: I helped J some weeks ago with technique and gear. He plays in a club in the US, more of a medium intermediate, takes the sport seriously and was also struggling with D09c. We changed to a boosted H3N on FH and today he sent me an email and said this: 'I had my first session with the H3n boosted and I can say that it suits me a lot better than the D09c. I feel more confident in hitting through the ball, especially when it is a little higher. I am still getting used to the rubber and have to get rid of bad habits that I think I started doing because I started using faster rubbers. It also helps that it is new and therefore more consistent (D09c was 2 years old) I am excited to continue working on hitting through the ball and looking to get my body more involved in the forehand attack. Anyway thanks for your help. Your article on 09c felt like was inspired by our conversation (I am sure that I am not the only one though).'

Player 3 - E: I glue his rubbers all the time and he is an almost national player in our club, has gone to china to train for some months and my chinese contact comes from him. He plays with tensor rubbers always, and decided to tried 09c once, even though I told him not to. After 2 sessions the rubber was in the bin, and he is now back to DNA DragonGrip and T05 and MXP. I still tell him that the DNA lasts very few but he gets them cheap from china so he doesnt care. Btw, he is 20-25 years old and was a champion in martial arts in the netherlands, brown belt in judo and jiujitsu, can hit the ball (and me if he wants haha) like a beast.

Player 4 - D.: He is one of my regular training partners in the club (40-50 years olf), plays at the 3rd highest regional level and is a nerd on gear just like me, total EJ, tries a lot of stuff, has the time and money to have fun on it. Recently he got an innerforce ALC and paired it with D09c on FH and BH. I told him it was too much for him, but the dutch are 'eigenwijs' (in english they do their own thing as they please, they swamped leiden to kick out the spaniards in the war many years ago, you gotta respect those guys) and he did it. After 1 month he changed to glayzer 09c on BH and G1 on FH, he is now much happier wit that choice and told me he will never do D09c again, he said it was fun but too expensive for what he could get

Player 5 - A.: One of our better young talents under 13, plays with butterfly outerforce CAF and rozena and glayzer, he is very happy with it and his dad too. I recently taught him how to hit-brush and lead with the body, he got it in 1 session and is beating much better players already, what a talent that kid.

So you see, hard data, not theories or empty arguments. I can give more examples, but this got too long already

And btw, even though this is objective data, there is also plenty of objective data for all the other perspectives, please remember I'm ALWAYS for diversity of opinions and school of thoughts, I give 'my' truth, not 'the' truth. It's one of my biggest beliefs that the beauty of this sport is that you can do whatever you want that fits you and still have fun and win matches.

Hope this adds to this discussion in a constructive way, good weekend all

 

[maxtor]

If I may, I would like to add something important here. You are right about activating a sponge - it requires a proper technique especially with inner carbon or other "softer" blades, but by using "fast" blades like Primorac Carbon or Sardius - it is not a problem at all dues to their stiffness overall.
In one of my posts here, I mentioned that as well. Timo Ball ALC wasn't giving me enough confidence with D09c as I wanted, but the same rubber on Primorac Carbon was the best FH for me ever. But unfortunately, I can't control Primorac Carbon for my BH. There are always trade-offs.

 

[K.K]

one thing i would like to add: i feel that hard and sticky rubbers like d09c, h3n (or rxton 9 that i play) are way harder to play against pimples or anti, because they always need acceleration, confidence and rhytmn and that is exactly what defensive players wanna take away from you. and since the lower you play the more you'll find those playstyles, the less you should choose equipment that makes it harder for you. if you play really low you will find a lot of people that play with totally dead and worn out rubbers and they give you no spin and speed and all those benefits from those hard rubbers are gone.
so i would not advice anyone that has no coach to get sticky rubbers if you face those playstyles regularly

 

[MORTtheORT]

So you mean there are no young kids playing with hurricane on forehand right? And it is harder to play with 09c than 39 degtee Hurricane?

Lol, clearly you don't understand why lots of kids play with the H3 on the FH...... and yes, and it is not even up for debate. Comparing a sponge activation of a high tacky/dead setup to a low tacky/catapult activation rubber....
Come on...this 101 stuff.

 

[NextLevel]

Lol, clearly you don't understand why lots of kids play with the H3 on the FH...... and yes, and it is not even up for debate. Comparing a sponge activation of a high tacky/dead setup to a low tacky/catapult activation rubber....
Come on...this 101 stuff.

And I suppose you do? Educate me. Someone who can loop better with Tenergy 05 than with Hurricane should know this.

Most of the Hurricane I have used in recent years has not been that much tackier than my 09c. That the 09c is more catapulty, sure but that makes it actually play softer than Hurricane on many shots, which for some users can be helpful. The argument I thought more people would use is that Hurricane is actually cheaper and available in softer sponges (though those are not necessarily the ones beginners and intermediates use or are told to use on forehand), but it seems people want to argue that the differences between Hurricane 3 and Dignics 09c, aside from price, are sufficient to make one great for a beginner/intermediate and the other terrible. I await your wisdom.

 

[NextLevel]

one thing i would like to add: i feel that hard and sticky rubbers like d09c, h3n (or rxton 9 that i play) are way harder to play against pimples or anti, because they always need acceleration, confidence and rhytmn and that is exactly what defensive players wanna take away from you. and since the lower you play the more you'll find those playstyles, the less you should choose equipment that makes it harder for you. if you play really low you will find a lot of people that play with totally dead and worn out rubbers and they give you no spin and speed and all those benefits from those hard rubbers are gone.
so i would not advice anyone that has no coach to get sticky rubbers if you face those playstyles regularly

I have not played a pips player with a softer rubber in a long time but for me, I don't know how to push or serve with soft rubbers. I get that the lower spin thresholds on a softer rubber might help, but I find the top end spin also troubling for the pips players, especially on service and reloops. In the end, I find your familiarity and practice against these styles/opponents to be more important than equipment details. It's not like Bernie Szocs is having an easy time with Sabine while Wang Manyu is struggling with her hard rubbers. Or that Zhu Yuling is struggling with hard rubbers, but Annett is struggling even more. You just play them as well as you can. Also I find spin variation with hard rubbers easier but that is just me, I can see the argument for another approach.

 

[NextLevel]

By the way, since the discussion continues, which is good for the overall watchers of the thread, today I want to bring in some objective data. I firmly believe in my opinion, but it's not because I'm making things up, it's because the beautiful thing about being a coach for about 2y + helping people with personalised advice gives me this data. I'm not just blowing hot air, these are real player stories, and not just from my club, also from the US, in all categories of play. Let me tell you about these without mentioning full names:

Player 1 - S.: I helped S. some weeks ago with technique and gear, he has played for a while in the US, has a TT table in his basement, age between 30-40, and he is a low intermediate. He was really struggling with D09c on both sides. You can read his story here on reddit.

Player 2 - J.: I helped J some weeks ago with technique and gear. He plays in a club in the US, more of a medium intermediate, takes the sport seriously and was also struggling with D09c. We changed to a boosted H3N on FH and today he sent me an email and said this: 'I had my first session with the H3n boosted and I can say that it suits me a lot better than the D09c. I feel more confident in hitting through the ball, especially when it is a little higher. I am still getting used to the rubber and have to get rid of bad habits that I think I started doing because I started using faster rubbers. It also helps that it is new and therefore more consistent (D09c was 2 years old) I am excited to continue working on hitting through the ball and looking to get my body more involved in the forehand attack. Anyway thanks for your help. Your article on 09c felt like was inspired by our conversation (I am sure that I am not the only one though).'

Player 3 - E: I glue his rubbers all the time and he is an almost national player in our club, has gone to china to train for some months and my chinese contact comes from him. He plays with tensor rubbers always, and decided to tried 09c once, even though I told him not to. After 2 sessions the rubber was in the bin, and he is now back to DNA DragonGrip and T05 and MXP. I still tell him that the DNA lasts very few but he gets them cheap from china so he doesnt care. Btw, he is 20-25 years old and was a champion in martial arts in the netherlands, brown belt in judo and jiujitsu, can hit the ball (and me if he wants haha) like a beast.

Player 4 - D.: He is one of my regular training partners in the club (40-50 years olf), plays at the 3rd highest regional level and is a nerd on gear just like me, total EJ, tries a lot of stuff, has the time and money to have fun on it. Recently he got an innerforce ALC and paired it with D09c on FH and BH. I told him it was too much for him, but the dutch are 'eigenwijs' (in english they do their own thing as they please, they swamped leiden to kick out the spaniards in the war many years ago, you gotta respect those guys) and he did it. After 1 month he changed to glayzer 09c on BH and G1 on FH, he is now much happier wit that choice and told me he will never do D09c again, he said it was fun but too expensive for what he could get

Player 5 - A.: One of our better young talents under 13, plays with butterfly outerforce CAF and rozena and glayzer, he is very happy with it and his dad too. I recently taught him how to hit-brush and lead with the body, he got it in 1 session and is beating much better players already, what a talent that kid.

So you see, hard data, not theories or empty arguments. I can give more examples, but this got too long already

And btw, even though this is objective data, there is also plenty of objective data for all the other perspectives, please remember I'm ALWAYS for diversity of opinions and school of thoughts, I give 'my' truth, not 'the' truth. It's one of my biggest beliefs that the beauty of this sport is that you can do whatever you want that fits you and still have fun and win matches.

Hope this adds to this discussion in a constructive way, good weekend all

Data is always open to interpretation.

1. The reddit link doesn't work.
2. I will take his word for it when he has played a few more weeks with H3N and says he stuck with it for the long term. Most people experience positive feelings when switching equipment, but after the thrill of switching is gone, reality sets in. Hopefully you can update on his progress.

Even then, one case of someone liking H3N is about that person. I have friends who have repeatedly tried to play H3N because their favorite players use H3N but give up after a while. These are all USATT 2000 level players. There are also some that love H3N because their spin is the best with a boosted form of it (and they can play 09c on their forehand and do not complain). I can show you video of all these players. By your standard, hard data.

3. Qiu Dang, Olympian blamed some of his losses after he switched to D09c on his backhand on the fact he was getting accustomed to the change. So it is a bit funny to hear that someone used a rubber for two days, trashed it and that is evidence of how good the rubber is. There is a video of a youtuber (USATT 1800) who used Nittaku H3 Turbo Blue on his forehand and switched to K3, did terribly in his first league with K3, trashed it and is going to tell us what he switched to. I guess the conclusion we must form is that K3 is a terrible rubber! By your standard, hard data. I will post a link to his video here, which by your form of argument shows that K3 is a terrible rubber for 1800 players:

4. I have never seen the man play but he mentioned *price* and I will come back to this later. In fact, I tried 09c recently again and wanted to switch to it. And then I just realized that I needed to accept certain things and went back to using Zyre 03, which for *me*, is more similar than the Dignics 80 that I probably should have stuck with. Obviously I am not that price conscious (okay I am but I get discounts on Butterfly). And I like hard sponge. More hard data.

5. I have coached people who were learning with D09c. If I look hard enough, I can find video of one of my students. Usually, the first requirement for 09c is one that Europeans tend to distrust - the use of an outer carbon blade. Because you need the rebound to make Dignics work in general, not just 09c. And I am saying this as someone who played with 09c on a Hadraw VK in 2020 before moving it to a Carbonado 245. Maybe the 09c drove him away, but he always said he preferred it to other rubbers. Would he have been better of with Rozena or Glayzer? Possibly. But people who hit and played with him were impressed and no one ever said that he had no control of his equipment. MY philosophy of coaching though runs counter to how many people coach. To me, too many people when they get coaching are focused with putting the ball on the table or winning or losing even in practice when they should be maximizing their understanding of their technique and their equipment with both makes and misses on general drills and then improve their shot selection over time in other drills. This in my opinion is why many people complain about equipment more than necessary. IT is okay to want to your equipment to make your player better when you are a mature player, but it is more important to adapt to your equipment when you are trying to improve.

And again, the main point here is that underlying the philosophy that being able to learn with H3N vs 09c, if the issue is not price, is the philosophy that adapting to equipment is not the primary issue. If your point had been that H3N and Dignics 09c are both demanding and that a player that learns with one should be reasonably able to learn with the other (though some individuals are different), and that the price of H3N makes D09c ridiculous for beginners/intermediates, I have zero qualms with that. But when I hear that one is good and the other is not and the issue is not primarily the price, which came up for user 4 in your post, I think people are focused on the price subconsciously while not focusing on the price consciously.

 

[MORTtheORT]

And I suppose you do? Educate me. Someone who can loop better with Tenergy 05 than with Hurricane should know this.

Most of the Hurricane I have used in recent years has not been that much tackier than my 09c. That the 09c is more catapulty, sure but that makes it actually play softer than Hurricane on many shots, which for some users can be helpful. The argument I thought more people would use is that Hurricane is actually cheaper and available in softer sponges (though those are not necessarily the ones beginners and intermediates use or are told to use on forehand), but it seems people want to argue that thdifferences between Hurricane 3 and Dignics 09c, aside from price, are sufficient to make one great for a beginner/intermediate and the other terrible. I await your wisdom.

Got to love a jaded moderator who just shows their true colours. More people like the OP please table tennis daily.

The H3 is used because it does not have a catapult effect, leading developing young players to play a full shot with weight transfer using good technique that returns consistency.

 

[NextLevel]

So I re-engineered the reddit link and it was basically someone saying he played with cell ball with a wood and mark 5, then played with wood and h2, then took a break and came back, noticed stuff was too slow, and then tried carbon and 09c (good decision, but I suspect he neither got coaching or reformed his technique for the plastic ball). The truth is that spin was extremely potent with the old ball and D09c is the spinniest rubber in the Butterfly line up so what he did was a reasonable change especially if he wasn't going to change his technique.

He then talks about using full strokes on his previous setups, and not liking the extra speed that he got from Carbon blade plus 09c. The reality is that everyone needs to assess what they want from what they use. Some may remember (at least @Der_Echte will) that I Was a religious wood blade user, Primoracs, Korbels, Samsonov Force Pro Blue 7 etc, I even used Yasaka Extras with Tenergy 05 and Evolution MX-S. I used to wind up and give full power into the ball, But between autoimmune arthritis, osteoarthritis, getting older, losing sleep, having kids, getting injured playing on low sleep etc. I decided I needed to use faster blades and tried a Mazunov. But when I moved to Texas, I was not playing fast enough with the players I was trying to beat (because I had stopped playing for a year, but I thought it was because I needed an equipment change) and started using carbon blades, which I have largely used with occasional practice using wood blades. The adaptations are real, you need to block differently, loop differently if you want to take advantage of the rebound of the setups etc.

His most telling comment was that he thought his game was worse because he was making changes that some would consider more efficient - he was playing with more spin and less effort, but "Not to mention it was hard as a brick unless I really put a ton of power in it. " People who have used Hurricane 2 know that it has a soft topsheet. So what was really going on here? I have my own views but that is not the point (the blade was his biggest issue).

I like what a few people posted on that reddit thread:

alobar1919
•1d ago

Yeah, these talks about what is good or bad for certain level players is like a “mean temperature of the patients in the hospital”. My experience is that I adapt to any equipment in a few days of using it. I thought it is common

Obviously not quite possible for beginners and maybe lower intermediates but the attitude is correct. Just as salient:

br4nn
•1d ago


pros and cons to all rubber choices and development. I've seen lots of people develop bad habits (using arm and no body) learning on softer rubbers. And lots of people who hit too much and don't brush enough, where higher throwing rubber also helps (I personally like and think higher throws are safer.) Addtionally, d09c being relatively linear makes softer/over the table shots easier and translates to off the table shots well (for all levels of play). Bouncy rubber is harder for newer players to use over the table where a lot of their rallies/points are. And I don't understand your comments about it in relation to passive play at all.

In other words, we are pretending that uncoached players just get good results with different equipment. But a lot of the things that D09c is good at are the kinds of things tacky rubbers are good at, it was designed by someone who wanted something like a Hurricane that he could use but fast enough that he didn't feel slow in a rally. Yet understandably, experienced players can find one very different from the other. But for beginners and even some advanced players, they are not *that* different!

 

[Dr Evil]

...'I had my first session with the H3n boosted and I can say that it suits me a lot better than the D09c... (D09c was 2 years old)...

Not surprised. 2 year old 09c vs freshly boosted H3N doesn't seem like a completely fair comparison.