Not again about boosting please

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Show me the rude and insulting comments!
The last one said that HE, Michael Zhang, knew about dwell time when I said he did not.
I think the word you are look for is dismissive.
They are ignorant. I could use the word idiots, but idiots can't learn whereas ignorant people can learn once they have been educated/informed.
I have found the TT forums to be extremely slow learners.
There is no reason to look further than your current post. "They are ingorant." You may have a point. But how you express yourself, and how you act aggressively towards people when you have decided they are "WRONG" is what usually has gotten you banned.

So, I have a question for you. Because, I would like you to stay on the forum. But since you have come back from the most recent 3 month ban, you have seemed like you are aggressively trying to go out of your way to argue about things.

Do you want to be on the forum? Or do you just want to target people to call ignorant because they don't understand physics (which you definitely do understand).

I think, if you followed what tabletennisdaily1 (who I don't think has any actual association with Table Tennis Daily) wrote, which also sounds a bit like stuff I have said to you in PMs in the distant past, then you could be a really useful member of the forum. But as of now, I do have more people asking me why you are still here and have not been permanently banned. And I do believe that is because you seek out arguments and seem to be very interested in telling people they are wrong rather than explaining the information that could get people to understand why they are misunderstanding things.

If you can be informative and productive, things will be fine. But if you keep being antagonistic to people on the forum (even when they are wrong you should not be antagonistic towards people) I am afraid that you are headed for another ban. And the next one will be permanent. I don't want to ban you. But the way you act towards others is still very problematic. And since you are back from your most recent ban, you seem to be escalating to bad behavior very quickly.

 
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says If you are thinking of posting a visitor's message here...
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Show me the rude and insulting comments!
The last one said that HE, Michael Zhang, knew about dwell time when I said he did not.
I think the word you are look for is dismissive.
They are ignorant. I could use the word idiots, but idiots can't learn whereas ignorant people can learn once they have been educated/informed.
I have found the TT forums to be extremely slow learners.

Brokenball, I understand that you can be frustrated, but you have to understand, being dismissive helps no one. Rather, try to debate or educate in an calm, friendly, eloquent, and descriptive manner. This is the best way to be persuasive and improve the quality of discussion.
So, see if you can do what tabletennisdaily1 is recommending. If you can, everything will go well.

 
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So, see if you can do what tabletennisdaily1 is recommending. If you can, everything will go well.

It is like talking to children that believe in fairy tales and they keep insisting their fairy tales are true. The fairy tales just get in the way and obscure the truth.
At least tabletennisdaily1 has read the Tieffenbacher pdf and knows how normal and tangential COR are calculated. One down. A lot more children to go.

 
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It is like talking to children that believe in fairy tales and they keep insisting their fairy tales are true. The fairy tales just get in the way and obscure the truth.
At least tabletennisdaily1 has read the Tieffenbacher pdf and knows how normal and tangential COR are calculated. One down. A lot more children to go.

yes, a lot more children to go, there must be about 2 Billions of them around by now.
Honestly, when i was a kid, I was always told to be weary and on guard from adults that showed much interest in children. 😂😂😂

 
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yes, a lot more children to go, there must be about 2 Billions of them around by now.
Honestly, when i was a kid, I was always told to be weary and on guard from adults that showed much interest in children. 😂😂😂

I am not interested in children, only the facts and truth. The 2 billion children drown out the facts and truth with their superstitions, fairy tales and lies.

You are not helping. You are too old to not know the difference. It should be clear to you that liquids don't compress much but gases do and the expand back. What is a booster supposed to do? Doming a rubber doesn't make it better. Define better. You should know better.
 
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I am not interested in children, only the facts and truth. The 2 billion children drown out the facts and truth with their superstitions, fairy tales and lies.

You are not helping. You are too old to not know the difference. It should be clear to you that liquids don't compress much but gases do and the expand back. What is a booster supposed to do? Doming a rubber doesn't make it better. Define better. You should know better.
This is the theory promoted by Dingbyvs in his post #29
I copy pasted it here. While I can understand the principle , and can dig the transformation from liquids into gas, I am still not
quite happy with the complete logic of it.
But neither am I of course with yours BB. I definitely do never intend to fill my sponge with a liquid and expect a boost.
I also do not believe that doming is the desired effect of boosting, actually I look at it as an undesirable side effect.

from post #29
"""""Someone on Bilibili found a patent application for a booster product. The primarily ingredients were olive oil, sodium bicarb, and Vit E. The oil is just the solvent that carries the active ingredient, which is the bicarb. The oil soaks into the sponge, carrying with it the solute bicarb. Bicarb then becomes H2O + CO2 gas, which gets trapped within the sponge and is slowly released. It's the trapped gas increasing the pressure within the bubbles in the sponge that gives the extra kick to boosted rubbers. The Vit E is used to prevent sedimentation.What this suggests is that the booster effect will reduce both with time and use, which we already know. What we also know is that oils don't evaporate, so eventually a rubber will be so soaked with oil that it'll fill the gas bubbles, then the sponge will permanently go dead.I also surmise that the dense Chinese sponge prevents gas leak better, which is why they react better to boosting."""""

 
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Yasaka tried https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dibutyl_sebacate for boosting https://patents.google.com/patent/JP2008049094A/en
"The present invention relates to a swelling agent for table tennis rubber used for swelling and softening table tennis rubber and maintaining a function of imparting sufficient speed and rotation to a ball." This is exactly what we observe (dooming and slight softening).
Juic used mineral and vegetable oils https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?26408-is-baby-oil-a-effective-booster&p=358780&viewfull=1#post358780 (posted this already a while ago).
What happens if we glue such a doomed rubber on the blade? The topsheet is put under tension.

Effects of booster on bounce properties of rubber​​​​​​​, Yutaka Tsuji and Koji Kimura, The 13th ITTF Sports Science Congress May 11-12, 2013, Paris, France​​​​​​​
https://sasportssience.blob.core.windows.net/ijtts/IJTTS_8_pdf files/MK13_Tsuji Y_62-67.pdf
"In spite of these law and regulation, manufacturers, players and coaches ignore the rule of rubber openly. Manufacturers immerse rubbers in mineral oil to increase elasticity and tension. This immersing process is made against rubbers which are regarded as a completed industrial product. As a result, rubbers contain a large amount of mineral oil in this treatment. It is posttreatment undoubtedly. Many rubbers made through such a process are approved by ITTF and distributed in the world. Booster, the content of which is mineral oil, is abundant on the market in the world, though it is banned to use in regular games."
They also measured the rebound height (COR) of boosted and unboosted rubbers and found differences. Some small (around 1.4%), some large (around 21.4%) depending on the rubber.
 
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Yasaka tried https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dibutyl_sebacate for boosting https://patents.google.com/patent/JP2008049094A/en
"The present invention relates to a swelling agent for table tennis rubber used for swelling and softening table tennis rubber and maintaining a function of imparting sufficient speed and rotation to a ball." This is exactly what we observe (dooming and slight softening).
Juic used mineral and vegetable oils https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?26408-is-baby-oil-a-effective-booster&p=358780&viewfull=1#post358780 (posted this already a while ago).
What happens if we glue such a doomed rubber on the blade? The topsheet is put under tension.

Effects of booster on bounce properties of rubber​​​​​​​, Yutaka Tsuji and Koji Kimura, The 13th ITTF Sports Science Congress May 11-12, 2013, Paris, France​​​​​​​
https://sasportssience.blob.core.windows.net/ijtts/IJTTS_8_pdf files/MK13_Tsuji Y_62-67.pdf
"In spite of these law and regulation, manufacturers, players and coaches ignore the rule of rubber openly. Manufacturers immerse rubbers in mineral oil to increase elasticity and tension. This immersing process is made against rubbers which are regarded as a completed industrial product. As a result, rubbers contain a large amount of mineral oil in this treatment. It is posttreatment undoubtedly. Many rubbers made through such a process are approved by ITTF and distributed in the world. Booster, the content of which is mineral oil, is abundant on the market in the world, though it is banned to use in regular games."
They also measured the rebound height (COR) of boosted and unboosted rubbers and found differences. Some small (around 1.4%), some large (around 21.4%) depending on the rubber.

While some adults in the west are still debating if boosting works or what it does to the rubber
Asians been boosting for decades and hitting the ball left right and center wit h it. So much that many countries have followed suite.

if it works for you, it works
no need to entertain strangers on the internet on what they feel, or what they think.
If you feel its for you, then go for it.

Having said that, my rubber should be ready for gluing soon

 
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Just curious, did the CNT immediately switch to using booster after speed glue was banned? Or was there a period they waited for booster to be invented?

What about other pros? Without speed glue and before Tenergy was invented, what did Timo Boll and such use?

They still speed glue.
at first it was VOC free speed glue to past the voc test (these things are still sold today)

then different oils came up
mind you, voc free speed glue was mixed with oils already.

so in a nutshell, "speed gluing" never really stopped in most countries.

Timo Boll stated he doesn't "use special rubbers" or doesn't do anything else to it.
But one of my mates played with Timo in his German club, and "apparently" that T05 was like no other. This was maybe 7 or 8 years ago.
So my friend does not believe Timo just gets a random retail version from any retail.

Many "Japanese" butterfly players boosted a long time ago too.
I'm sure you guys all know the story of Jun openly saying it is not fair on how much tier 1 players are boosting. He tried to complain, but there is just no ways there manage "booster" at the control table.

Even if ITTF comes up with a solution. All CNT needs to do is to have a DHS "warehouse" at the venue and "add boosting on" by the manufacture, and the equipment is deemed legal.

 
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They still speed glue.
at first it was VOC free speed glue to past the voc test (these things are still sold today)

then different oils came up
mind you, voc free speed glue was mixed with oils already.

so in a nutshell, "speed gluing" never really stopped in most countries.

Timo Boll stated he doesn't "use special rubbers" or doesn't do anything else to it.
But one of my mates played with Timo in his German club, and "apparently" that T05 was like no other. This was maybe 7 or 8 years ago.
So my friend does not believe Timo just gets a random retail version from any retail.

Many "Japanese" butterfly players boosted a long time ago too.
I'm sure you guys all know the story of Jun openly saying it is not fair on how much tier 1 players are boosting. He tried to complain, but there is just no ways there manage "booster" at the control table.

Even if ITTF comes up with a solution. All CNT needs to do is to have a DHS "warehouse" at the venue and "add boosting on" by the manufacture, and the equipment is deemed legal.

Can you show me the voc free speed glue? Why don't people just continue to use this speed glue if it cannot be detected?

Did all the European pros use this voc free speed glue before Tenergy was invented?

 
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one item still interests me and that is : It has been said that after multiple boosting the sponge gets saturated with fluid and can not
take on any more booster liquid. Has anybody ever taken a piece of saturated sponge, rolled it into a handy size and squeeeezed it in a vice or press,
and actually squeezed some fluid out of a sponge ?

Just being curious .
 
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I have been quoting YOU, in this thread posts #29 and #32

If gas can escape then it has really no reason to stay in there at all kinda like pulling the valve out of a bicycle tire.
Of course if the process you describe, where bicarb is transforming itself into gas, and if this is a slow process, then this could be the explanation.

Hmm, well usually when you put things in quotation marks it's verbatim. Small changes to the words can have big changes to its meaning.

Anyhow, no need to dwell on misunderstandings. I feel like knowing how boosting works I'm less inclined to use it. I'll probably still try it out, though. Some people at the club play with speed glued H3, and that thing plays like a beast. D09c is close enough but not quite the real thing.

 
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Why speed glue? Why not just use faster rubbers/foam sponges?
What does speed gluing do to make the rubber faster that can't be achieved by just making a faster sponge.
Again, you fill your tires with air, not sponge.

If your refer to the Tiefenbacher study, section III.2: "The difference between gluing conservately and speed gluing is bigger than the difference between a 1.3mm and 2.1mm sponge."

They also found a 12% increase of rotation for the same racket stroke. So for the same rubber you get a very good increase of performance.

 
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Can you show me the voc free speed glue? Why don't people just continue to use this speed glue if it cannot be detected?

Did all the European pros use this voc free speed glue before Tenergy was invented?

I wasn't involved with European pros during the time that speed glue was banned.
But the world has been speed gluing for hours before every match, and you wont just expect this habit to stop over night.

Also, the change over, Tenergy didn't come out yet. It was first Bryce/Bryce Speed
and I know in Asia, it was boosted already then.
I won't be surprised that Europe didn't tweak it too.

These speed glue only last a few hours, max 3 to 5 days at top.
just like anything in life, with time, things become better, and booster oils has also become better.

We are waiting for some table tennis forum member in the west, a science guru, to come up with a booster that is made of GAS and cheaper, better performance and last longer, but until then, the million + players that boost around the world, will continue to use oil.

Here is just a bottle I have by Ping Pong Wang (other more popular brands for the west includes Haifu's speed glue)
They are cheaper than oil, but since require more regular use, it does add up to more work and more cost.
I do know some people that will use it together with oil.

 
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