Penhold in Europe

[Tony's Table Tennis]

With the recent arrival of Felix Lebrun and the European Champion of Qiu Dang, what is your take on Penholder in Europe?

Do you feel there could be some more focus from the locals to attempt something different to the traditional 2 wing looper, ie actually getting kids to start training penhold.

Both Felix and Qiu are local "trained" penholders.

 

[TaiHaoPingPong]

With the recent arrival of Felix Lebrun and the European Champion of Qiu Dang, what is your take on Penholder in Europe?

Do you feel there could be some more focus from the locals to attempt something different to the traditional 2 wing looper, ie actually getting kids to start training penhold.

Both Felix and Qiu are local "trained" penholders.

I think there will definitely be a lot of kids inspired to play penhold now, at least in France and Germany. And I'd love to see it, it would be great for the game.

What I wonder is, will there be a shortage of coaches with the knowledge to teach them the proper penhold techniques. I'm no expert in penhold or coaching, but I would assume there's quite a few differences or points of emphasis with certain strokes, that European coaches who have played and taught shakehand all there lives won't be aware of. Whereas in China/Japan/Korea it's probably easier to find coaches with the deeper knowledge of the style

 

[Penhold Ponchik]

If it does become more popular (and I really hope it does) I'm sure there are a plethora of coaches from the aforementioned countries that would go and coach. Also, having a European perspective on the style may lead to some new innovations!

 

[ricospin]

I think Lebrun and Qiu's successes on the European stage proves that Penhold can adapt to the modern game. Moreover, Lebrun and Qiu are as far as you can get from classical chinese penhold philosophy. They instead opt for more of a backhand focus instead of trying to force their forehand in. Their RPB is stable similar to a Ma Long's BH strategy.

Although I think that shakehand's BH is naturally stronger than penhold's reverse, perhaps a stable offense with well timed counters can prove to be equal to blistering attacks.

As for more kids training in pen, it's less ergonomic and each grip is unique- this can lead to grip issues down the line.

My coach said that the strategy is different for playing penhold, you have to favor your forehand and learn how to set it up with a 3rd ball service, but Qiu and Lebrun favor a more rally and counter approach.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

With the recent arrival of Felix Lebrun and the European Champion of Qiu Dang, what is your take on Penholder in Europe?

Do you feel there could be some more focus from the locals to attempt something different to the traditional 2 wing looper, ie actually getting kids to start training penhold.

Both Felix and Qiu are local "trained" penholders.

It is amazing that these two, at least for Felix that they are not trained by Chinese trained coaches. It is 100% purely homegrown. TT world is full of excitement.

 

[Dominikk85]

I think finding coaching will be an issue. Dang's father is a penhold player and was a player and coach in germany so dang had a good PH coach there for his first years. his dad actually wanted to make him a SH player (like his brother who played like second highest division in germany actually is) but dang said he struggled with it so he tried PH and sticked with it.

There are still many Chinese playing in Germany but almost all of them play SH so there aren't many who can coach it.

Felix stated that in his club there was a chinese player which he emulated because he liked the style of play.

Maybe some more recreational players will try it but if I was a German coach and had a top talent I probably make him a shakehand player because there is risk I can't teach him correct penhold.

I would hope though that penhold will grow in china again. Dang and felix will be super important for that, I doubt china goes back to full PH as SH has been the dominant style in CNT for more than 30 years now but if felix and dang could beat a few chinese maybe the chinese would get proud and not want that Europeans beat them with "their" style so at least they need to develope some penholders as training partners.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think there will definitely be a lot of kids inspired to play penhold now, at least in France and Germany. And I'd love to see it, it would be great for the game.

What I wonder is, will there be a shortage of coaches with the knowledge to teach them the proper penhold techniques. I'm no expert in penhold or coaching, but I would assume there's quite a few differences or points of emphasis with certain strokes, that European coaches who have played and taught shakehand all there lives won't be aware of. Whereas in China/Japan/Korea it's probably easier to find coaches with the deeper knowledge of the style

Do you think it is possible outside France and Germany?

Felix is a big surprise, who would have thought France producing a Penholder, and one that can beat Chinese.
I wonder how many other juniors are using Penhold?
I don't really follow European juniors, so maybe some European members would know more than me about this.

I do feel there is no shortage of coaches.
One phone call, and you will have a penhold coach from China in your country by a weeks time.

Not to mention, Europe has tons of Chinese (and other Asian) coaches already, some might even be penholders themselves.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think finding coaching will be an issue. Dang's father is a penhold player and was a player and coach in germany so dang had a good PH coach there for his first years. his dad actually wanted to make him a SH player (like his brother who played like second highest division in germany actually is) but dang said he struggled with it so he tried PH and sticked with it.

There are still many Chinese playing in Germany but almost all of them play SH so there aren't many who can coach it.

Felix stated that in his club there was a chinese player which he emulated because he liked the style of play.

Maybe some more recreational players will try it but if I was a German coach and had a top talent I probably make him a shakehand player because there is risk I can't teach him correct penhold.

I would hope though that penhold will grow in china again. Dang and felix will be super important for that, I doubt china goes back to full PH as SH has been the dominant style in CNT for more than 30 years now but if felix and dang could beat a few chinese maybe the chinese would get proud and not want that Europeans beat them with "their" style so at least they need to develope some penholders as training partners.

I do agree that Felix and Dang would do good for this style.

I didn't know much of the history of both players - so thank you for sharing.
I wonder if this result will bring some hype and young kids saying they want to start out Penhold
but as you said, maybe the coaches will change them to SH....

I might do that myself, I am a Penhold, and I recommend people to learn SH
But then maybe because Penhold is so rare now, it has become a threat again

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think Lebrun and Qiu's successes on the European stage proves that Penhold can adapt to the modern game. Moreover, Lebrun and Qiu are as far as you can get from classical chinese penhold philosophy. They instead opt for more of a backhand focus instead of trying to force their forehand in. Their RPB is stable similar to a Ma Long's BH strategy.

Although I think that shakehand's BH is naturally stronger than penhold's reverse, but perhaps a stable offense with well timed counters can prove to be equal to blistering attacks.

As for more kids training in pen, it's less ergonomic and each grip is unique- this can lead to grip issues down the line.

My coach said that the strategy is different for playing penhold, you have to favor your forehand and learn how to set it up with a 3rd ball service, but Qiu and Lebrun favor a more rally and counter approach.

Wang Hao style

 

[ricospin]

Wang Hao style

I think a fair amount of people, including myself treated Wang Hao as a one-off. To think back to all the penhold greats, only one had an outstanding backhand.

I've heard a top player at my club said, yes you have Wang Hao who had a great backhand, but how many penholders are there that had RPB as a strength? One.

You could say WCT, but I'd say he's not in the same domain as Wang Hao in terms of results and dominance.

There are at least 3 other penholders in CNT, Xu Fei and others. Outside of China, I know that there's a young Japanese kid in ASV gruenwettersbach who plays pen. South America has tons of penholders (juniors as well as over18 players), even Jpen players (especially although not limited to in Brazil).

My dream is for DQ to get a killer fh attack where it's a one punch knockout like Ma Lin's... but maybe the reason for his success is the fact that he has a controlled offense, and in acquiring a killer fh it would lessen his bh capabilities (because he would favor his fh more).

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think a fair amount of people, including myself treated Wang Hao as a one-off. To think back to all the penhold greats, only one had an outstanding backhand.

I've heard a top player at my club said, yes you have Wang Hao who had a great backhand, but how many penholders are there that had RPB as a strength? One.

You could say WCT, but I'd say he's not in the same domain as Wang Hao in terms of results and dominance.

There are at least 3 other penholders in CNT, Xu Fei and others. Outside of China, I know that there's a young Japanese kid in ASV gruenwettersbach who plays pen. South America has tons of penholders (juniors as well as over18 players), even Jpen players (especially although not limited to in Brazil).

My dream is for DQ to get a killer fh attack where it's a one punch knockout like Ma Lin's... but maybe the reason for his success is the fact that he has a controlled offense, and in acquiring a killer fh it would lessen his bh capabilities (because he would favor his fh more).

True

I think it could be, because of the FH hype in the game and this is not limited to just Penholders.
Even SH players would use more FH.

But the players that can still do well when age 30+, or 40 are all very strong with BH (Timo Boll, Chuan Chih Yuan)

 

[KPen]

Both Felix and Qiu are local "trained" penholders.

Why were they "trained" as penholders ?
Are you saying their best natural grip is shakehands or American grip ?
Are you saying that they may be better as shakehand players ?
Why would a coach train a student to play using a grip that is not their best natural grip ?

Theer are many players that can play very well with another grip other than their best natural grip.
But I do not think a player can play equally well using two grips at their highest possible level

Most penholders seem to be able to play decent shakehand but reverse doe snot seem to be true.
Many TPH players probbaly cannot play RPH and probably some RPH players cannot play TPH (on their backhand)

BTW I am a shakehander who cannot play penhold but one who drreams I was a penholder (who can play either RPH loops & TPH punch block & side block backhands at will) at all but I think a penhold grip (using RPH + TPH) is the best grip there is . I hate playing those RPH penholders with that weird hooking sidespin RPH backhand well disguised loops with delayed timing.
I can only think of Liu Guoliang who came close.( I think he used some TPH backhands in addition to his mostly TPH , I am not sure) but players like Wang Hao or Xu Xin seem to have zero TPH backhand.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Why were they "trained" as penholders ?

You must ask the parents or coaches - or see above of what some forum members has replied
But since you have quoted my text. There are a lot of Chinese groomed players that immigrated to Europe that are also penholders. Hence my text is talking about "home groomed" penholders from Europe.

Are you saying their best natural grip is shakehands or American grip ?

I didn't say or state anything and what in the world is an "American grip"? we taken a German and French playing Penhold grip, what does American has anything to do with the context here?

Are you saying that they may be better as shakehand players ?
Why would a coach train a student to play using a grip that is not their best natural grip ?

No body said anything, so lets not try and derail the subject or troll things please.

Theer are many players that can play very well with another grip other than their best natural grip.
But I do not think a player can play equally well using two grips at their highest possible level

Most penholders seem to be able to play decent shakehand but reverse doe snot seem to be true.

Not sure what you read from the above. Who said anything about playing 2 different grips?

Many TPH players probbaly cannot play RPH and probably some RPH players cannot play TPH (on their backhand)

BTW I am a shakehander who cannot play penhold but one who drreams I was a penholder (who can play either RPH loops & TPH punch block & side block backhands at will) at all but I think a penhold grip (using RPH + TPH) is the best grip there is . I hate playing those RPH penholders with that weird hooking sidespin RPH backhand well disguised loops with delayed timing.
I can only think of Liu Guoliang who came close.( I think he used some TPH backhands in addition to his mostly TPH , I am not sure) but players like Wang Hao or Xu Xin seem to have zero TPH backhand.

Ma Lin for starters?

TPB has very little attacking threat on Cpen.
RPB for Cpen is more "complete" for players. So from a coaches angle, I won't be surprised that TPB is not taught.
RPB can do everything that TPB can do, and a lot more. TPB just has too much limitations

 

[TaiHaoPingPong]

Do you think it is possible outside France and Germany?

Yea definitely, I just mentioned those two countries since they each have rising stars from there that kids are probably looking up to. But yeah with RPB developing and being shown that it can be so effective, I think and hope it will become more popular everywhere. I wish myself that I had learned penhold from the start, I just think it looks way cooler (and Xu Xin is my favourite player to watch).

I hoped another penholder will make it into the next CNT generation but at the moment it doesn't look so likely. But now with lebrun and Qiu, we'll get to watch some penhold in the big tournaments either way 😀

 

[SFF_lib]

Yinhe has been developing a penhold blade with a comfortable handle and good balance in order to help children get into this style. They have finally worked out penhold 5.0 (review on Bilibili). Basically a Cpen with a Jpen cork designed for children and those with a small hand.

There has been lots of discussion in China about how to revive penhold in children. I hope Europe can trial the Yinhe kids penhold blade👍

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yinhe has been developing a penhold blade with a comfortable handle and good balance in order to help children get into this style. They have finally worked out penhold 5.0 (review on Bilibili). Basically a Cpen with a Jpen cork designed for children and those with a small hand.

There has been lots of discussion in China about how to revive penhold in children. I hope Europe can trial the Yinhe kids penhold blade👍

Hm.. let me speak to Yinhe's boss

I don't really follow kids equipment
But Cpen with Jpen cork has been around for 30 years or maybe longer

I'm interested in the planning and plans.
But is Yinhe strong in Europe though?

 

[ricospin]

Hm.. let me speak to Yinhe's boss

I don't really follow kids equipment
But Cpen with Jpen cork has been around for 30 years or maybe longer

I'm interested in the planning and plans.
But is Yinhe strong in Europe though?

Pretty strong within eastern european countries

 

[SFF_lib]

Hm.. let me speak to Yinhe's boss

I don't really follow kids equipment
But Cpen with Jpen cork has been around for 30 years or maybe longer

I'm interested in the planning and plans.
But is Yinhe strong in Europe though?

I know it’s an old idea. But this is not simply a Jpen cork. It has a specific design for leftie and rightie.

 

[Dominikk85]

What is the reason why nobody really ever tried to optimize jpen blades for RPB? I think dang qiu actually tried jpen rpb with a special blade for this for some time but then went to cpen later. What is the disadvantage of jpen for RPB (apart from blade weight and cork on back - but that could be both changed)?

 

[Lycanthrope]

I think pros have got strong fingers so they don't need the Jpen handle to grip the racket. The Jpen's handle is too bulky for them.

Wang Hao used a racket with Jpen handle for training when he was a kid as well.

I think it is not a bad idea for amateur players. Yinhe has got some 5-ply 7-ply blade with Jpen handle and their thickness is good for 2 side rubbers.