Penhold in Europe

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What is the reason why nobody really ever tried to optimize jpen blades for RPB? I think dang qiu actually tried jpen rpb with a special blade for this for some time but then went to cpen later. What is the disadvantage of jpen for RPB (apart from blade weight and cork on back - but that could be both changed)?

Nothing there is no disadvantage to using jpen + rpb, perhaps maybe tradition. I think this is a big misconception. They are still both penhold paddles which means you can still rpb with it, just like how you can RPB with any other paddle.

I actually know more JPen players locally that play with rpb.

 
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What is the reason why nobody really ever tried to optimize jpen blades for RPB? I think dang qiu actually tried jpen rpb with a special blade for this for some time but then went to cpen later. What is the disadvantage of jpen for RPB (apart from blade weight and cork on back - but that could be both changed)?

The sweat spot for Jpen and Cpen is different.
For TPB, Jpen is way better then Cpen, especially it is a very light blade and can punch a lot faster and harder.
For RPB, Cpen with the bigger sweat spot will have a lot more power.

Overall Jpen is dying a lot quicker than Cpen in Asia.

 
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I'm not an expert but I think it is important to learn a RPB flat counter drive. That is not a super useful stroke in matches but it will help you to learn passive and active blocking with RPB.

Dang qiu does that very well, he can switch between rpb block, rpb active block and topspin on the BH so he is not easy to beat there.
 
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The sweat spot for Jpen and Cpen is different.
For TPB, Jpen is way better then Cpen, especially it is a very light blade and can punch a lot faster and harder.
For RPB, Cpen with the bigger sweat spot will have a lot more power.

Overall Jpen is dying a lot quicker than Cpen in Asia.

The Yinhe blade has a Cpen shape but a Jpen cork. The handle is slightly bigger than usual making the blade less head heavy. It’s specifically designed for two wing attackers, and children

 
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Yinhe%20Blade%20Pen%20Special%201.jpeg
https://tabletennisonly.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=310

maybe this?

 
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Yinhe has triled five generations of penhold (1.0 - 5.0). 5.0 is the final version which will be released in the Chinese market in mid September.
I've seen this before.
Not sure if this is going to be some breakthrough product or not, and we likely won't see what will happen in Sep since most of China will likely be in lockdown again.
Yinhe also sells jpen handle layers (to glue on cpen blades), so this concept isn't new. Korean Cpen blades with cork concept has been around for over a decade, maybe 2 (the pic I showed)

However, I was taught with cpen and using my finger to control the blade, not my finger tip.

 
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I can only think of Liu Guoliang who came close.( I think he used some TPH backhands in addition to his mostly TPH , I am not sure) but players like Wang Hao or Xu Xin seem to have zero TPH backhand.

Xu Xin definitely used some TPH back in his earlier matches (2010-2012ish). Check out any of his matches against Ma Lin back then.

I've seen this before.

However, I was taught with cpen and using my finger to control the blade, not my finger tip.


Same here. Index finger controls and adjusts depending on the stroke.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Nothing there is no disadvantage to using jpen + rpb, perhaps maybe tradition. I think this is a big misconception. They are still both penhold paddles which means you can still rpb with it, just like how you can RPB with any other paddle.

I actually know more JPen players locally that play with rpb.

So why didn't jpen rpb ever catch up at the world class level?

Was this simply because jpen "died" (at the high performance level) before rpb really became popular so no world class jpen player ever tried it?

Are there no real disadvantages of jpen rpb over cpen rpb? Why did dang change from. Jpen to cpen?

 
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So why didn't jpen rpb ever catch up at the world class level?

Was this simply because jpen "died" (at the high performance level) before rpb really became popular so no world class jpen player ever tried it?

Are there no real disadvantages of jpen rpb over cpen rpb? Why did dang change from. Jpen to cpen?

sweet spot size is different, who would want to use RPB on a blade not designed for RPB in terms of sweet spot?
Jpen sweet spot is more suited for block/punch, for RPB, it is not powerful enough.

And Jpen in terms of weight design, is not designed to suite 2 rubbers.
Cpen is designed with a more even weight distribution.

These are common knowledge for Jpen/Cpen players for over 2 decades now.
It is like you asking, why Ma Long is not taking an oversized (def) blade to start two wing top spin. The simple answer is, equipment are designed for certain styles.

 
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1. sweet spot size is different, who would want to use RPB on a blade not designed for RPB in terms of sweet spot?

2. Jpen sweet spot is more suited for block/punch, for
2a. RPB, it is not powerful enough.

3. And Jpen in terms of weight design, is not designed to suite 2 rubbers.
Cpen is designed with a more even weight distribution.

4. These are common knowledge for Jpen/Cpen players for over 2 decades now.
It is like you asking, why Ma Long is not taking an oversized (def) blade to start two wing top spin. The simple answer is, equipment are designed for certain styles.

I respect you a lot Tony, but I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion.

1. I don't think the sweetspot would matter that much. Dang Qiu earlier in his career played with jpen + rpb. I think sweetspot is just a matter of getting used to to be honest.

2. I don't see how Jpen is more punch and block as opposed to rpb, because traditional cpen was also a thing. So technically, rpb punch and block should also be applicable (case in point ma lin's rpb punch)
2a. I think the correct type of power can be generated via the user and not so much the eq.

3. I think again, it's about the same concept. If you are used to doublesided Jpen by all means, there is no problem. Cpen in terms of weight distribution is actually worse in weight distribution because since the head is bigger, the result is more rubber and more weight. Also if players gap only one side, it is lighter on the forehand side. One sided Jpen would actually be the most balanced option, it's less head heavy.

4. I think this a part of the reason as to why jpen is on the decline. To me, a lot of these common knowledge/ rules didn't make sense to me. Why is it that you can't put a backside rubber on a jpen but you can on a cpen? Jpen can maybe do tpb a little bit better, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to play rpb on it.

The fact of the matter is, if you can play rpb with cpen, you can do it on jpen. The only reason as to why that might not happen is if you have a weird grip/change your grip, however like I say a lot, the best grip should allow you to do all techniques. At the end of the day they are both penhold blades- the abilities that are associated with these blades are because of the players that used them.

The only downside of a jpen rpb is that the head is smaller giving it more margin of error, however if you get used to it, is it even going to be a problem?

For example: "Jpen players have naturally powerful forehands because of their grip."- does that diminish every other player that has a powerful forehand? in that case, why doesn't ma long use Jpen since it has such a boost in forehand technique.

"Jpen can block better tpb better"... maybe marginally, but what about Ma Lin or HZW or any other TPB player.

It all comes from tradition. The jpen tradition is to have fast and perfect footwork with a lightning quick forehand and an excellent punch block. To keep this idea that it's mostly forehand with a tpb block somewhere in the mix is a very difficult system to play with. It's very demanding, and the current meta right now is to have an equally good forehand and backhand. (not to mention that 1 ply hinokis are still the gold standard jpen blade, and not something with a more conventional and modern structure speaks volume about it)

If Jpen players were to forget what the stereotypical jpen player is, perhaps we'd see more RPB jpen players.
 
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Upon seeing SFF's video, there's one thing that I will say that I DID get wrong about Jpen and Cpen similarities.

Since Jpen handle is thicker and more robust, it's easier to keep TPB more stable. It's a little bit harder with Cpen, but Jpen's thicker grip allows for it to be a better hold. I would say very marginally tho.
 
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Upon seeing SFF's video, there's one thing that I will say that I DID get wrong about Jpen and Cpen similarities.

Since Jpen handle is thicker and more robust, it's easier to keep TPB more stable. It's a little bit harder with Cpen, but Jpen's thicker grip allows for it to be a better hold. I would say very marginally tho.

So I assume I don't need to reply to your post, since you already did yourself?

Also remember, when Cpen was 1 sided, it was more common to use SP. So SP punch block etc on TPB was the norm then.

Cpen TPB compared to Jpen punch block is very different, especially speed glue era.
I'm not sure if you saw some of the earlier players, who don't need to RPB with Jpen, because that punch block on that 38mm ball with speed glue is more than enough to win a couple of gold medals.

When the ball gotten bigger, the TPB was no longer as fast or deadly. Jpen which is better than Cpen lost its main advantage. In the same time all penhold started to loose out to SH, as SH is proper 2 wing play.

As of today, few Cpen can be that proper 2 wing play. Jpen is still not in the radar

PS there is no rule that you can't put rubber on back side of Jpen. Some Jpen blades do cater for 2 rubbers. But as I said, the weight distribution is not even.

 
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So I assume I don't need to reply to your post, since you already did yourself?

Also remember, when Cpen was 1 sided, it was more common to use SP. So SP punch block etc on TPB was the norm then.

Cpen TPB compared to Jpen punch block is very different, especially speed glue era.
I'm not sure if you saw some of the earlier players, who don't need to RPB with Jpen, because that punch block on that 38mm ball with speed glue is more than enough to win a couple of gold medals.

When the ball gotten bigger, the TPB was no longer as fast or deadly. Jpen which is better than Cpen lost its main advantage. In the same time all penhold started to loose out to SH, as SH is proper 2 wing play.

As of today, few Cpen can be that proper 2 wing play. Jpen is still not in the radar

PS there is no rule that you can't put rubber on back side of Jpen. Some Jpen blades do cater for 2 rubbers. But as I said, the weight distribution is not even.

I have played two-sided Jpen and Cpen for a number of years. My wrist really hurt when playing RPB with Jpen despite the weight is lower. Weight distribution is a huge issue. Jpen is head heavy. With two rubbers it's significantly head heavy.

The issue is, my wrist isn't strong enough to flick or loop with BH. The only option is punch which actually works well with Jpen.

 
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TPB has very little attacking threat on Cpen.
RPB for Cpen is more "complete" for players. So from a coaches angle, I won't be surprised that TPB is not taught.
RPB can do everything that TPB can do, and a lot more. TPB just has too much limitations

The TPB (deadball) punch block is a very good stroke & a must have for ANY penholder TPB or RPB whether Jpen or Cpen or Kpen
IMO , theerfore, it is a huge mistake for any coach not to teach this to any student RPB or TPB
I have not seen many higher level players who play both TPB & RPB a lot but I know of many Cpen players at mid levels who can play bpth RPB & TPB.
They are lot more difficult to play against than just RPB or just TPB because you don't know what is coming at you from their backhand.

Kim Taek Soo had the most devastating side punch block of any player I have seem but there may be others. I know this may be hard to learn but it is a mistake to devote 100% of your training just to RPB & ignore TPB

 
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The TPB (deadball) punch block is a very good stroke & a must have for ANY penholder TPB or RPB whether Jpen or Cpen or Kpen
IMO , theerfore, it is a huge mistake for any coach not to teach this to any student RPB or TPB
I have not seen many higher level players who play both TPB & RPB a lot but I know of many Cpen players at mid levels who can play bpth RPB & TPB.
They are lot more difficult to play against than just RPB or just TPB because you don't know what is coming at you from their backhand.

Kim Taek Soo had the most devastating side punch block of any player I have seem but there may be others. I know this may be hard to learn but it is a mistake to devote 100% of your training just to RPB & ignore TPB

38mm it is deadly, 40+ I'm sure many coaches are right.
Kim TS at 40+ won't likely use it too. He sure isn't coaching it either.

 
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The TPB (deadball) punch block is a very good stroke & a must have for ANY penholder TPB or RPB whether Jpen or Cpen or Kpen
IMO , theerfore, it is a huge mistake for any coach not to teach this to any student RPB or TPB
I have not seen many higher level players who play both TPB & RPB a lot but I know of many Cpen players at mid levels who can play bpth RPB & TPB.
They are lot more difficult to play against than just RPB or just TPB because you don't know what is coming at you from their backhand.

Kim Taek Soo had the most devastating side punch block of any player I have seem but there may be others. I know this may be hard to learn but it is a mistake to devote 100% of your training just to RPB & ignore TPB

I think it is cool if you can do both but the decision making aspect of it is kinda tough. For lgl it was kinda easy as he used RPB basically just to open up and almost never to counter topspin but I guess if you use both in rallies it can be kinda tough to decide and you could make some errors because you change your mind too late.

Tbp does help in front of the body of course if you get hit at you but if you play just RPB like felix lebrun it might be easier to play backhand with more conviction.

But I would guess at the amateur level playing TBP with an occasional rpb could still work great but at the pro level the backhand cross topspin to topspin rally is kinda almost like the default rally in the modern game with the bigger plastic ball.

 
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