People who switched from carbon back to wood, how’s it going?

[DukeGaGa]

Interesting take. I definitely agree with all the things you said. Would it be then better to try and use carbon with an even slower rubber? I have H3 Neo. Something slower would be TG2 Neo.

and I’ve actually tried it someone else’s fang Bo b2x and it felt slow. Like an off-/all+ slow.

As a EJ myself, my answer to these questions would always be: yes , try it 😉

Also, if you're questioning your form, might want to give this a try: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=606717725155

If the link says you need to register here's a picture of it (the blue stuff around his chest and arm)

 

[NDH]

The issue with threads and discussions like this, is to offer the most sound advice (given what little information we usually have), we need to make fairly large generalisations, otherwise the posts become very long, and a bit of a ramble!

I don’t disagree with most of what has been posted, but the generalisations here are:

* Most All Wood blades are slower (and by association, have more control) than Carbon blades

* Most players will benefit from a slower set up, and often move to a faster set up too soon.

These aren’t just my opinions. The top point is a fact, and the bottom point is backed up by what I’ve personally seen over the last 20 years, and the many online threads and comments.

Now, there will always be exceptions to the rule.

Like Duke said, some All Wood blades might not feel as good to you, especially if you are used to Carbon already.

Likewise with the fact an all wood blade will require more effort, which can potentially be a bad thing for some players….

Maybe older players…… But the issue with *most* junior players or anyone under the age of 50 learning the game, is not a lack of power, but keeping the ball on the table in the first place - Something a carbon blade isn’t going to help with (in…. General).

If you are being taught to play with proper technique, you simply won’t need a carbon blade - You’ll have the technique to be able to create the spin and power you need, and then you can move to a quicker set up when you are ready.

 

[ricospin]

As a EJ myself, my answer to these questions would always be: yes , try it 😉

Also, if you're questioning your form, might want to give this a try: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=606717725155

If the link says you need to register here's a picture of it (the blue stuff around his chest and arm)

what's the brace supposed to do? keep elbow stable?

 

[Dominikk85]

Can you recommend a cheap ish (maybe sanwei, yinhe or so) that is about all to all+ (all wood) blade for me?

I'm also fealing my yinhe v14 is a bit fast for me at this point.

 

[Brs]

Can you recommend a cheap ish (maybe sanwei, yinhe or so) that is about all to all+ (all wood) blade for me?

I'm also fealing my yinhe v14 is a bit fast for me at this point.

16 euro this week on sale
https://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/neottec-gamma-all


or if you want to spend more they also have for 21 euro
https://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/yasaka-sweden-extra

 

[Brs]

If you are being taught to play with proper technique, you simply won’t need a carbon blade - You’ll have the technique to be able to create the spin and power you need, and then you can move to a quicker set up when you are ready.

If you are being taught to play with proper technique there is no issue. It won't matter if you start with carbon or wood. You are being taught proper technique! Play with whatever you and your coach agree on.

If you are self-taught then maybe equipment matters a little. But there is a very high probability that you will learn poor technique and be ****ed, regardless of your equipment choices.

 

[NextLevel]

If all you mean is that you need a bit more skill to produce good spin with a carbon blade, then I agree.

But what many folks seem to mean is that top-level players cannot be competitive with all-wood blades. In other words, the popular myth has become that if you use an all-wood blade that must mean you're a lower-level player. It's that assumption that I'm saying is nonsense.

The nonsense claim isn't as straightforward as you are making out...

 

[NextLevel]

There is a lot of overlap between wood and carbon blades, so it's a little weird to talk about them like there are only two clearly separate options.

Sure we can say with some confidence it's easier for an amateur to spin with an allplay than with a primorac carbon. But only because spin requires fast bat speed, and if you make a little too much contact with the primo at high speed the ball will go a mile. So all else equal you will swing slower and make less spin. It's not a feature of the blade. Boll has no problem spinning with a primorac carbon.

When you get into the middle range of blade speeds it's less clear. Is it easier to spin with a Clipper (all-wood!) than an Acoustic outer carbon? I don't think so. And soft carbon blades like MLSC, WSC even more so.

The one thing I will add here is that Boll's switch to the Primorac Carbon was also related to his switching to Dignics 09c (slightly tacky rubber) on both sides. Sometimes these decisions have to be understood in the context of the whole setup, not just in the context of the blade.

 

[NDH]

If you are being taught to play with proper technique there is no issue. It won't matter if you start with carbon or wood. You are being taught proper technique! Play with whatever you and your coach agree on.

If you are self-taught then maybe equipment matters a little. But there is a very high probability that you will learn poor technique and be ****ed, regardless of your equipment choices.

I respectfully disagree with this - Although I do understand what you are saying.

Firstly, yes, in general I’d recommend going with whatever your coach says, over us internet dwelling folk!

That being said, I know plenty of coaches who have zero idea on equipment outside of the basics, and sometimes the advice has been woeful! 😂

But still…. Rule of thumb. Listen to your coach.

However, whilst it’s possible to achieve a good level if you start with good coaching and a carbon blade, it’ll definitely take longer, and likely be more frustrating.

I’ll use my son as an example.

Despite having a coach with great technique (who is also a very good coach), it still took him quite some time to get anywhere near a semi decent stroke - And that was with a very slow set up.

If he’d been using a carbon blade, it would have taken twice as long, and he’d probably have given up!

I just can’t see a way that a beginner would benefit from a carbon blade.

But maybe I’m too narrow minded! 😂

 

[IB66]

The one thing I will add here is that Boll's switch to the Primorac Carbon was also related to his switching to Dignics 09c (slightly tacky rubber) on both sides. Sometimes these decisions have to be understood in the context of the whole setup, not just in the context of the blade.

At the highest level, I think speed becomes more important, these guys and gals are use to playing at very fast pace, quick fire rapid close to the table exchanges etc
A reduction in ball speed, gives an opponent just that little more time, the Pro’s are looking for smaller advantages to capitalise on. So if Bolls FH is 300mm slower using D09C, by which I mean he plays his ‘normal’ FH top spin, and it travels 300mm less in the same amount of time, this is an advantage that his opponent could capitalise on. To make up for this, a faster blade is necessary, hence Primorac Carbon. Definitely a balancing act!!!

 

[Dr Evil]

Timo kept using his Boll ALC for a while after he switched to D09C. As I recall, he switched to a faster blade to compensate for core muscle injury problems that have cost him some swing speed. He's said he can make shots with the slower blade that don't work as well with the faster one, but because of his injuries he now needs the extra speed more than the extra shots. Interesting that he decided to keep the slower D09C rubber and go with a faster blade, rather than keeping the Boll ALC and returning to a faster rubber like D05.

 

[DukeGaGa]

what's the brace supposed to do? keep elbow stable?

It's for keeping the shoulder and upper arm in place, this will teach you how to use your body to perform the stroke, not your arm.

 

[NDH]

Timo kept using his Boll ALC for a while after he switched to D09C. As I recall, he switched to a faster blade to compensate for core muscle injury problems that have cost him some swing speed. He's said he can make shots with the slower blade that don't work as well with the faster one, but because of his injuries he now needs the extra speed more than the extra shots. Interesting that he decided to keep the slower D09C rubber and go with a faster blade, rather than keeping the Boll ALC and returning to a faster rubber like D05.

I think D09C is Timo’s baby. Pretty sure I read/watched that he was instrumental in pushing for that type of rubber from Butterfly, having seen the Chinese dominate with their H3!

I think we’ll see the vast majority of Pro’s who haven’t already switched to it on the FH, switch in the next few years.

I also reckon Butterfly will continue to make iterations of it like they did with Tenergy.

 

[Brs]

I respectfully disagree with this - Although I do understand what you are saying.

Firstly, yes, in general I’d recommend going with whatever your coach says, over us internet dwelling folk!

That being said, I know plenty of coaches who have zero idea on equipment outside of the basics, and sometimes the advice has been woeful! 😂

But still…. Rule of thumb. Listen to your coach.

However, whilst it’s possible to achieve a good level if you start with good coaching and a carbon blade, it’ll definitely take longer, and likely be more frustrating.

I’ll use my son as an example.

Despite having a coach with great technique (who is also a very good coach), it still took him quite some time to get anywhere near a semi decent stroke - And that was with a very slow set up.

If he’d been using a carbon blade, it would have taken twice as long, and he’d probably have given up!

I just can’t see a way that a beginner would benefit from a carbon blade.

But maybe I’m too narrow minded! 😂

Not at all, possibly you are absolutely right. Bear with me, here is some logic for why I think all-wood could be equally bad for an un-coached beginner.

A player will want to hit about as fast as the people he is normally playing with. Because at first it's very hard to make enough spin to beat someone with spin, even if they can't really block. Players always start out hitting even when they are trained from the jump.

If someone uses all-wood and tries to get equivalent speed to opponents who are using carbon, he is likely to try to muscle the ball far too much, and/or use way too much of an arm swing. This will develop bad habits that can be almost impossible to break if practiced for long enough. The 40+ ball will only have increased this tendency to try too hard.

Whereas using a carbon bat the beginner will get adequate speed without a ton of muscular effort and tension. So maybe (maybe maybe) he could develop relaxed and free technique as he learns to spin.

Or is that all crazy talk?

 

[Michael Zhuang]

I think D09C is Timo’s baby. Pretty sure I read/watched that he was instrumental in pushing for that type of rubber from Butterfly, having seen the Chinese dominate with their H3!

I think we’ll see the vast majority of Pro’s who haven’t already switched to it on the FH, switch in the next few years.

I also reckon Butterfly will continue to make iterations of it like they did with Tenergy.

I'm curious if DHS will come out with their own version of 09c.

Just take the H3 topsheet and put it on GoldArc8 sponge (ESN sponge).

 

[DukeGaGa]

Not at all, possibly you are absolutely right. Bear with me, here is some logic for why I think all-wood could be equally bad for an un-coached beginner.

A player will want to hit about as fast as the people he is normally playing with. Because at first it's very hard to make enough spin to beat someone with spin, even if they can't really block. Players always start out hitting even when they are trained from the jump.

If someone uses all-wood and tries to get equivalent speed to opponents who are using carbon, he is likely to try to muscle the ball far too much, and/or use way too much of an arm swing. This will develop bad habits that can be almost impossible to break if practiced for long enough. The 40+ ball will only have increased this tendency to try too hard.

Whereas using a carbon bat the beginner will get adequate speed without a ton of muscular effort and tension. So maybe (maybe maybe) he could develop relaxed and free technique as he learns to spin.

Or is that all crazy talk?

No, it’s not crazy talk at all. I’ve seen a few coaches commented on this subject of beginners starting with a carbon blade, they said the same thing: started with a fast enough blade such that the beginner doesn’t focus on hitting hard. I think this is also where the “faster blade pair with slower rubber” comes in. When hitting with less force, the rubber will be doing most of the work, so the ball will travel slower. But once the beginner had a few lessons and has started to formed a good stroke, they’ll start hitting through the rubber and enabling the blade’s potential, which will be very easy for anyone to spot the difference, which in turn provides them with a good feedback and confidence boost.

 

[NDH]

Not at all, possibly you are absolutely right. Bear with me, here is some logic for why I think all-wood could be equally bad for an un-coached beginner.

A player will want to hit about as fast as the people he is normally playing with. Because at first it's very hard to make enough spin to beat someone with spin, even if they can't really block. Players always start out hitting even when they are trained from the jump.

If someone uses all-wood and tries to get equivalent speed to opponents who are using carbon, he is likely to try to muscle the ball far too much, and/or use way too much of an arm swing. This will develop bad habits that can be almost impossible to break if practiced for long enough. The 40+ ball will only have increased this tendency to try too hard.

Whereas using a carbon bat the beginner will get adequate speed without a ton of muscular effort and tension. So maybe (maybe maybe) he could develop relaxed and free technique as he learns to spin.

Or is that all crazy talk?

Interesting take!

Truthfully, I’ve perhaps been fortunate to “predominantly” be around coached people most of my life (certainly from a junior POV).

These people who are learning the correct technique benefit greatly from the slower speeds, as their general ability is already OK.

I can certainly see your point, and perhaps you are
spot on - I’d not really thought of it that way.

I tell you what….. We’ll both find a brand new junior to coach….. You go down the Carbon route, and I’ll go down the Wood route, and we’ll compare notes in 10 years time! 😃

 

[seacret]

Duplicated comment

Duplication

 

[seacret]

Can you recommend a cheap ish (maybe sanwei, yinhe or so) that is about all to all+ (all wood) blade for me?

I'm also fealing my yinhe v14 is a bit fast for me at this point.

Yinhe n11s ~10usd or w-6 ~25usd. there should be plenty reviews on these 2 blades. I'm not sure about sanwei.

 

[NextLevel]

I think the use of slower blades to coach beginners is a bit overrated with one exception- adult learners who do not have good feeling. I know many juniors who just used fast blades with Chinese rubber or fast blades period. I would go the fast blade with slower rubber for the 40+ ball.

I think also that the focus on blade speed is sometimes confused with the focus on blade feeling. For me the biggest issue with composite blades was never the speed, it was always that the blades were developed to dampen vibrations that I got used to while training with wood blades. So I couldn't tell what a good shot felt like with a composite but could do it easily with a wooden blade.

I partly learned this whenever I played with a Mazunov. A Mazunov is a faster blade than a Boll ALC but using it you would never know because it is truly a looping blade for the new 40+ ball. Despite being head heavy you feel the dwell better. I could never enjoy the vibrations of a Boll ALC or a typical 7 ply. But a 5 ply like the Mazunov always felt good to me.

Many other more detailed thoughts on the issue but I will leave this here for now.